The Bobby Buonauro Clinic was approved by ZBA and placed on Council floor at the April 8th meeting. The ZBA report to council is in the April 8, 2208 Coucil packet (p124). Its request was for a medical clinic then further into the report says they will operate a methadone clinic, hours of operation will be Monday thru Friday 5am to 12pm and Saturdays 7am to 10am.
The Bobby Buonauro Clinic:
http://citehealth.com/rehab-centers/illinois/cities/evanston-city-in-cook-county/bobby-buonauro-clinic-inc
I will make this straight forward and simple. Was there a special reason the Aldermen/women who
voted yes? Maybe there is a perfectly logical explanation as to why such a clinic would be needed or wanted in
Berwyn.
MacNeal I believe has it's own rehab programs 2 block away, why would we need another so close?
Private pay or not, it's a big mistake.
Were the neighbors notified of this by the ZBA?
The latest BTF member (http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=902) is the Assistant Director (and also an architect). He may be able to shed some light . . .
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 10, 2008, 07:45:01 PM
I will make this straight forward and simple. Was there a special reason the Aldermen/women who
voted yes? Maybe there is a perfectly logical explanation as to why such a clinic would be needed or wanted in
Berwyn.
MacNeal I believe has it's own rehab programs 2 block away, why would we need another so close?
Private pay or not, it's a big mistake.
Were the neighbors notified of this by the ZBA?
Being a professional/service business, I don't believe they pay any taxes. But it is located in an all-medical building from what I heard. A retail business or restaurant (that would be generating sales taxes) would never be in there anyway, right?. Hey, maybe some of the patients will eat at La Notte for lunch and generate some real tax dollars to help fill that $2.2 million budget gap.
Am I worried about the clientele? A little, but I'd be more worried about the clientele that OC's Food 4 Less would bring...
brilliant post Bennifer, absolutely brilliant.
Carry on.......
bennifer, what are you saying, food for less will attract what kind of clientel, it baffles me when people worry about the clientel food for less will bring, open your eyes and look around you,could it get any worse
You might be surprised by the type of people hooked today. They are not all street bums. Unfortunately, some look and often act like anyone else. Berwyn has many substance abuse services, especially around the Depot District. I know of one place that holds 7 AA meetings each week alone.
As for the Food 4 Less, the fear is that only "low lifes" shop at discount food stores. I for one, never shop at "name brand" supermarkets if I can help it. Why should I pay extra when other stores have the same for much less? I would welcome Foor 4 Less.
Quote from: Sandy on July 11, 2008, 07:15:20 AM
You might be surprised by the type of people hooked today. They are not all street bums. Unfortunately, some look and often act like anyone else. Berwyn has many substance abuse services, especially around the Depot District. I know of one place that holds 7 AA meetings each week alone.
As for the Food 4 Less, the fear is that only "low lifes" shop at discount food stores. I for one, never shop at "name brand" supermarkets if I can help it. Why should I pay extra when other stores have the same for much less? I would welcome Foor 4 Less.
So, its okay to be addicted? Have you shopped at the food for less in Hinsdale?
So #3 was the only one with enough backbone to say no to this clinic?
Why wasn't there any community meetings held to let the area residents know what is going on?
You think this is bad wait and see what happens if the Lovero-Skyrd-Chapman team take over at City Hall. The Citizens of Berwyn will be back on "a need to know" bases for any important information that affects our community.
Folks that don't like this decision might want to check if everyone that was supposed to receive legal notice regarding the zoning hearing did in fact receive it. The documents probably are FOIAble or available for public viewing.
Doesn't the Filmore Center fill that void? I don't have too much of an issue if it's going into a medical building. Addiction is a medical problem that has to be treated just as depression and heart disease.
Depends how far along you are. Methadone is like free, legal heroin; it's no cure.
An old friend is beyond that, so I've taken him to a street corner in ____ ____ where he could trade whatever pills he's got for a li'l bottle of methadone from someone else who's got a hook up (easy access Dr. (yes, they are plentiful)).
That way he can pretend he's off the shit.
Quote from: Thor on July 11, 2008, 08:41:39 AM
So #3 was the only one with enough backbone to say no to this clinic?
Why wasn't there any community meetings held to let the area residents know what is going on?
You think this is bad wait and see what happens if the Lovero-Skyrd-Chapman team take over at City Hall. The Citizens of Berwyn will be back on "a need to know" bases for any important information that affects our community.
Isn't that how every local and state government in the US is run? If it isn't could you please point out where.
The Bobby Buonauro Clinic
07/11/08
Let me start by saying, we would be happy to talk with anyone at anytime to discuss concerns.
We are locating the clinic in the Oudeh Medical Building, 3245 S. Grove Avenue. The space is on the first floor of an existing medical office building. There is no feasible way that the space could be used for retail. The Zoning Board agreed 100% in a unanimous vote. They knew exactly what The Bobby Buonauro Clinic was all about.
We should never have had to go the Zoning Board in the first place, which means we should not have had gone to Council.
The Bobby Buonauro Clinic is a private clinic and receives no financial assistance from the government. The vast majority of the clients have jobs and pay for their own treatment. The hours of operation are from 5am to 12pm Monday through Friday and 10am to 12pm Saturday.
Macneal does NOT have a treatment program.
Fillmore does NOT have a treatment program.
Clients of a methadone maintenance clinic come from all walks of life (including Professionals & Veterans). It is anonymous. These people are coming to the clinic to make a positive change in their lives. They need our help. These people are protected by the ADA (American's with Disabilities Act); they have a legal right to treatment.
Community resistance to methadone maintenance treatment is the widely held view that methadone treatment facilities are a part of the opioid addiction problem, rather than a response to the opioid addiction problem.
Even in Berwyn, do you really believe we have no problem?
Methadone maintenance treatment is designed to reduce illegal and harmful opioid use. Harmful opioid use can come from several sources, most commonly heroin, but also addictions to painkillers (vicadin, codeine, dilaudid, oxycodone).
The BBC is fully accredited through The Council on Accreditation (COA), & licensed and regulated by various governmental agencies both federal and state.
Sincerely,
Sal R. Sottile, Assistant Director
Sal, thanks for posting on here. I was under the impression Fillmore did drug treatment. Do they not provide opioid treatment? I'm sure there is plenty of addiction in Berwyn. This week I thought Bonster was on crack at one point. ;)
Neither, MacNeal nor Fillmore, provide opioid treatment.
Yes, thanks, Sal. So the clinic will never be open past noon? Are there any plans to expand hours? Also, is it true there will be an armed security guard at the clinic? Lots of rumors flying around right now...it would be good to get some facts. What types of services are offered to your patients? Just the methodone? Are there support groups? counseling? Thanks. I think one of the fears is the "loitering on the smoke breaks" in front of the building. I have heard several neighbors/friends mention this about other drug treatment programs in other neighborhoods, though maybe these were more of the AA support group/day treatment variety. THanks for the information.
Shelley
Berwyn has a problem ,but not in the Depot Dist only in that dreaded North End right folks?
Our family pediatrician is located on the second floor of that building.
Our family pediatrician just lost some clients.
Residents of many towns object to methadone clinics.
http://www.queenspress.com/archives/coverstories/2000/issue5/coverstory.htm
"Former addicts say that methadone clinics deserve their reputation for being drug dealer and crime magnets. "If you want to know where to get heroin," said one former methadone user, "just open up the Yellow Pages and look under methadone clinics. Right out in front, you can buy anything you want.""
http://www.seacoastonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080704/NEWS/807040385/-1/rss03
http://www.poconorecord.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080602/NEWS/806020317
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9501E5DE153DF935A35757C0A961958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print
"Thomas Kraemer, [the town's] police chief, said he did not know of any crimes directly linked to the clinic or its clients. Still, he describes the treatment center as a ''nuisance,'' adding that in 15 months, his office has received more than 300 complaint calls from the eight-block area surrounding the site for violations ranging from loitering and vandalism to selling drugs.
The clinic's operator, Jerry Bass, said his patients were not a source of crime, a sentiment echoed by some merchants in the Vauxhall section of Union near the clinic.
And Terry O'Connor, the assistant commissioner for the state's Division of Addiction Services, said there were no statistics supporting links between crime and clients of any of the state's methadone clinics.
However, neighbors on the small residential street that butts up against the clinic believe that the methadone users are troublemakers, if not criminals.
''They park on our street, loiter and have fights all the time outside the clinic,'' said Thomas Glenn, a 22-year-old carpenter."
What's the parking restrictions on that block?
Quote from: Bonster on July 11, 2008, 03:02:33 PM
Depends how far along you are. Methadone is like free, legal heroin; it's no cure.
An old friend is beyond that, so I've taken him to a street corner in ____ ____ where he could trade whatever pills he's got for a li'l bottle of methadone from someone else who's got a hook up (easy access Dr. (yes, they are plentiful)).
That way he can pretend he's off the shit.
Yep, it's TRUE.
Need a fix just find a methadone clinic. Want to catch a buzz find a clinic, need to get high find a clinic.
I thought Berwyn was trying to IMPROVE it's image?
Time to vote OUT some alderwomen!!!
Better raise the taxes so we can hire some more police too.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 11, 2008, 06:03:11 PM
What's the parking restrictions on that block?
LOL BP you know the deal with parking on Grove...there is none. That alley north and east of the "clinic" should turn into quite the interesting place. Try not to step on all the disposed "works"
that you will see disposed of around the area boys and girls. Those used needles can cause a nasty rash.
Shelley, as we are awaiting some answers from some very good questions, I believe in
the April agenda the request from the Buonaura Clinic, specifies thier employee needs.
One of these as I read it, included a security guard.
That is a busy medical building, besides a Peds office, there is the general surgery group
upstairs. Many people, and children in and out and sometimes having to wait in the downstairs vestibule,
for rides or etc. Call me cautious, but I would hate to be the one in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Was a special use permit requested, or was there a variance granted?
I thought I was following this with an open mind until I read the ADA statement. Why are addicts covered under the Americans with Disabilities Act ? Why not alcoholics, pedophiles, phobaphobics, etc.
Doesn't sound right.
I was thinking the same, buzz.
Another question, to Sal, or Liz. Why this space? Of all the spaces in the entire chicago land area, why here?
It's been a busy day regarding the issue of the Bobby Buonauro Clinic slated to go into 3245 Grove Ave.
Here is an email message from a neighbor/colleague of mine who is busy on the issue as well. I encourage all to attend:
Mayor O'Connor is calling a community meeting on the proposed Methadone Clinic for this upcoming Wed, July 16th, at 6 pm in the Grove Ave. Municipal Parking Lot.
He is inviting ALL of the Aldermen to explain their votes on this issue to the public.
He encourages as many people as possible to attend and bring your families and neighbors.Tell everyone you can to show up to this meeting.
He also is inviting the building owner and the owner of the methadone clinic to hear from residents.
The Mayor told me he will invite the Police Chief there and representatives from the Berwyn Development Corporation as well.
We still need as many people as possible to cram the July 22nd City Council meeting and speak at open comments at 6:30 PM on Tuesday, July 22nd.
And we need everyone to continue to email all of the aldermen on this issue asking for a new vote because two aldermen were absent who would have voted no.
Thanks to a number of you for working on this and voicing your concerns to the aldermen.
- Vicki
Tell me more about the four who voted yes
Quote from: Sal R. Sottile on July 11, 2008, 04:02:17 PM
The Bobby Buonauro Clinic
07/11/08
Clients of a methadone maintenance clinic come from all walks of life (including Professionals & Veterans). It is anonymous. These people are coming to the clinic to make a positive change in their lives. They need our help. These people are protected by the ADA (American's with Disabilities Act); they have a legal right to treatment.
Community resistance to methadone maintenance treatment is the widely held view that methadone treatment facilities are a part of the opioid addiction problem, rather than a response to the opioid addiction problem.
Even in Berwyn, do you really believe we have no problem?
Sal - first of all, thank you for posting. I have questions similar to those posted by Shelley earlier.
Per your post, none of us opposed to the clinic believe that all of your clients are crazed dope fiends. We are also all very aware of the existing drug/alcohol problems facing residents of Berwyn. We are the ones living here and experiencing those issues. Naive we are not. Many of us have family and friends struggling to recover and know clinics such as yours provide resources necessary for their recovery.
But, the fact that your clinic requires a security guard while my pediatrician's office does not is a glaring point of differentiation that speaks to the type of clients - and thier very serious issues and needs - that your clinic services. We don't believe this building - with its already existing medical offices & clients - is the right location for your clinic. Those I know in the medical profession have stated they would not be comfortable working in or around a clinic such as yours based upon their experience with people reliant on methadone. It looks like you'll have a chance to speak to this and other issues we have on July 16th.
A few of my questions that I hope to have an opportunity to ask which will provide factual information for us to consider:
1) How many times per month/year are police called to the Bobby Buonauro Clinic in Evanston?
2) Has there been any incidents where staff and/or other patients have been injured/harmed by clients using the services of the clinic?
3) Were the other businesses in the building made aware that your clinic was moving in to the building? FOIA can answer this, but quick polling points to a 'No' on that one.
4) Are you servicing clients from the immediate area (Berwyn), or servicing out-of-area clients? What % are estimated to be out-of-area?
I have other questions but these are the first ones on my list. I can provide additional questions if you are interested and to help you prepare for 7/16.
Thank you - Vicki
Letter received from Ald. Chapman on this issue and logic on her vote to allow the variance. Please see attached pdf file.
SILK and others - I'd love the benefit of your insight on this one on the legal issue our city would be facing by voting No. Especially as our resident lawyer alderman voted No.
Thanks - Vicki
TWO of three attorney/aldermen voted no.
Without knowing specifics, I would venture to say that the only reason a matter like this is before a zoning board is because the intended use is not permitted within the specific zone in question.
Thanks SILK -
Here's the email response from Ald Phelan to another Berwyn resident:
From: Michael Phelan
Date: 7/11/2008 3:56:40 PM
Subject: RE: Methadone clinic
Kim,
The reasons I voted for this are several. First of all, the recomendation from the zoning board of appeals was to approve it. Secondly, on issues such as these, if the zba is for the project and I don't have any real issues with it, I usually reside with the resident alderman. Lastly, it is my understanding that this particular location is zoned for medical offices. Please feel free to respond should you have questions, comments or concerns.
Mike Phelan
Personally, I'd rather our elected officials risk the lawsuit and fight this. That is a cost that this taxpayer is willing to pay. I remember the storefront church threatened lawsuit, too. Maybe the clinic will choose to find another location rather than spend for their lawsuit costs? I bet they can sneak this into some other community that isn't paying attention? A. Malina...can you find any articles that successfully stopped a clinic from coming into their neighborhood? Is there a way to grant a zoning appeal w/ conditions? For example, each time police are called to the clinic, the clinic will pay a fee?
Also, a few more questions for the clinic:
1. How many patients is your clinic expecting daily?
2. What is your success rate for treating patients?
3. How long is the typical drug addict in treatment (receiving methadone daily)?
4. What is the rate of patients who need repeated treatments?
And the response to another Berwyn resident from Ald. Lovero
From: Robert Lovero
Sent: Friday, July 11, 2008 1:14 PM
Subject: Bobby Buonauro Clinic
Barnali, I voted for the clinic because legally there was no legitimate reason to deny. The building they are going in consists of medical related offices and clinics. It will not be generating retail taxes in the district and therefore does not violate the intent of the retail overlay, especially since the whole building is considered amedical clinic. The use is consistent. The zoning board reviewed this petition and after concluding it should be approved, the Council remanded it back for reconsideration. The Executive Secretary of the Board, an attorney and a gentleman who has directed the ZBA for as long as I can remember, on both occasions determined that the initial denial from the City should never have occurred and their was no reason to send the matter to zoning in the first place, nor any legal reason to deny the use of this office space by the clinic.
In addition, the circumstances surrounding this applicant, was further incentive to me to not incur yet another lawsuit against the City because of a total disregard for proper procedure. The operators and owners are Berwyn residents with a current clinic in Evanston which has experienced no detrimental incidents as conjured up when non-medical folk like myself think of a methadone clinic. I performed my due diligence by asking questions and doing a little research before my first vote on this matter. With little or no proof that this clinic in this location would result in the problems that I could conceive of, I was reluctant to invite a lawsuit by denying a business use that would eventually cause the City a finacial liability in a case that I believe we could not win.
Please visit the numerous websites that review and explain the services and treatments provided by the "Bobby Buonauro Clinic" as well as the many uses for methadone treatment. The services range from post partum depression for women to drug and alcohol treatment. I addition this clinic is a private pay clinic. Speak to the owner who shows the same concern for the City of Berwyn that we share. Understand her passion for the medical area that she has persued.
I hope that you can understand why I voted the way I did. Sometimes we have hard decisions which seem to go against your gut reactions. It becomes important for me to do step back, do the due diligence and decide in a fair and impartial manner. Never, however, does my decision subtract from my desire to do the best for Berwyn. Thanks for your time, patience and support.
Bob Lovero
--
Robert J. Lovero
Attorney at Law
6536 W. Cermak Road
Berwyn, IL 60402
Phone (708) 795-9777
Fax (708) 795-4730
e-mail: rjlovero@gmail. com
Anyone else read the two responses and get the feeling one person drafted the letter? Same sentences in many parts.
My question is that if the area is zoned for medical offices, then why was this matter before the zoning board of appeals?
"I bet they can sneak this into some other community that isn't paying attention?"
Fopas run deep in 60402, there is no need to do such now, they have accomplished such here. Voter/citizen participation attention deficit comes to mind here.
The Wednesday night parking lot meeting should be interesting. Do any of you really think
any principal who brought such upon you will show up for this brutal public gang bang?
A political hand wrenching from OC will be the only topic with no consequence.
But hey, silk is pissed. We can't wait to meet him.
Quote from: Bear on July 11, 2008, 10:35:27 PM
they have accomplished such here.
I don't know, Bear. Here's what I think might happen. July 22nd it is called up for another vote allowing Day and Ramos to vote no. Mayor breaks the tie against the methadone clinic, perhaps opening up the possibility of a lawsuit. LIke I said in an earlier post, I'd gladly pay the cost of this lawsuit, even if it only buys some time. I'm predicting it buys at least time enough to get us through the election so that this is a non-issue for everyone...
that is probably what everyone wants really. Plus, any lawsuit at worst ends in the clinic opening at a later date and at best takes so long that the landlord finds a better tenant. LIke I said...worth the cost. Maybe BTFers should just pitch in to rent the space...1st floor buildout for that coffee shop? Or is there any medical professional out there in BTF land that can use the space? Maybe you could get some type of counseling degree set up an "Advice" booth like Lucy on the peanuts. I'd pay the co-pay!
I wonder if any of the aldermen who voted for this attempted to find another solution...like a more appropriate location in a more industrial (non residential, not so visible) place? Probably not, they are too busy trying to save the jobs of 15 people while the rest of us 55,000 schmucks get screwed. Who are they more worrried about? The 15 employees or the rest of us?
Bear,
You wouldn't want to meet me. I know it, you know it, and everybody on these boards knows it. Now go have another old Style and clam up lest you risk another "fopas".
Can anyone please explain why the matter was in front of the zoning board to begin with, if in fact the use contemplated is specifically permitted?
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 11, 2008, 09:51:08 PM
Anyone else read the two responses and get the feeling one person drafted the letter? Same sentences in many parts.
I noticed the same thing with just a cursory glance at both, except that (expectedly) Nona's version reads much better.
Then there was the 5th grader's.
btw Bear the buffoon, I have no reason to be pissed. I simply can take my kids to another pediatrician. You're the nitwit that's stuck with a methadone clinic less than block from your home.
Enough with the name calling.
I thought I was being complimentary, but maybe you should also cut out the family insults and ethnic bashing, no?
Quote from: Shelley on July 11, 2008, 09:47:30 PM
Personally, I'd rather our elected officials risk the lawsuit and fight this. That is a cost that this taxpayer is willing to pay.
Exactly what I was thinking...
"I voted for the clinic because legally there was no legitimate reason to deny it." That's all? How about for moral or ethical reasons??
They're willing to put Phelan's multi-million dollar mess upon our reluctant shoulders, but are scared to fight this with the backing of the citizens?
I guess with her 8 years of law she knows something that we don't.
After all, she spoke with 3 independent attorneys and asked the hard questions, and does not see any way out but to allow this clinic.
Can someone post the zberwyn zoning ordinance in question?
Ther's ususally language along the lines of health, safety, and public welfare included.
Bonster,
This looks like nothing more than a political ploy Vote for the methadone clinci under the pretense of "avoiding a lawsuit" in order to cast your political opponent, who does the right thing, in a negative light.
You know, judging by the vote tallies, it sure looks that way. Yet if Nona's letter is original material (and Lovero's paraphrased/coincidence) I'd be inclined to believe her. I'd just be curious as to what her counsel told her - insane $$ amount in these suits, or do these suits inevitably end up granting access to these places such that any $$ amount spent will be wasted?
Question for those against this:
Is it just a matter of being in the Depot District, or in Berwyn period? (Ogden/Cermak/Harlem, etc.)
I don't think we want a methadone clinic anywhere in Berwyn. IN fact, the more I learn about these for-profit clinics, the more I oppose this as a treatment option at all, anywhere. One thing is for sure, if a methadone clinic opens anywhere in Berwyn, it will not be good for ANY of Berwyn, IMHO.
'You wouldn't want to meet me. I know it, you know it, and everybody on these boards knows it. Now go have another old Style and clam up lest you risk another "fopas".
'btw Bear the buffoon, I have no reason to be pissed. I simply can take my kids to another pediatrician. You're the nitwit that's stuck with a methadone clinic less than block from your home.'
It amuses me to see how easy it is to push the buttons of the weak.
The space at 3245 Grove houses pediatrician and general medical practices, lots of elderly patients. I can't answer your question about another area in Berwyn, each area has its unique character. How's that for diplomacy?
Today I've learned plenty about methadone and the way it is used. Methadone patients travel great distances to obtain this drug and I suspect our beloved rail lines is the foremost reason the DD was aggressively pursued by the Bobby Buonauro owners.
Silk, I will post the zoning ord. in the morning.
Where's the building owner in all of this mess?
As much as I am upset at the council for pushing this through, the buck stops with the building owner. Wouldn't the owner be the one person who can deny leasing to any possible tenant? I'm not sure how commericial leasing works, but I'm fairly certain that you don't have to lease your space to any company that wants to occupy it.
I believe - someone feel free to verify/dispute - that it is the same person who owns the cigarette/coffee/quick stop place on the corner of Grove & Windsor. Why would he/she want to have a tenant such as this.....especially with the obvious harm it will do to his/her other tenants in the building (whose clients are going to leave them).
Also, is this private, for-profit company going to put up a legal battle to get the space if the city denies the zoning variance after we all go out there and vent on Wednesday? Sal's earlier post mentions thier clientele is in a protected class. It's interesting that it was pointed out. And, from Ald. Chapman's letter, I'm inferring that she knows the owner and has had a multi-year relationship with her. So Ald. Chapman may be in the best position to make a judgement call on this, or maybe they've already threatened a lawsuit if the variance was not approved. Who knows - I'm speculating at the moment.
Now my two questions are....why would the building owner agree to rent to this company, and has the threat of a lawsuit already been mentioned by the clinic owner? More so, if the building owner refuses to lease to the clinic, would all of this just go away?
I have been researching Methadone as a treatment option for the past four hours. There is many, many negative articles about methodone treatment and also how it has turned into an 'alternative' drug for abusers. However, the medical community embraces it as a valid treatment and stands behind it as a safe alternative to heroin. Interestingly, methadone clinics are primarily private, for-profit entities according to the information available via the Internet (I checked out meth clinics in major cities around the US - all private).
Also, communities with methodone treatment facilities seem to complain mostly about the severe traffic congestion and influx of out-of-community people to their areas. Some article mention that there is no proven link to increases in area crime due to meth clinics, but they generally do not exist in vibrant, popular areas of town. Google street view is a cool tool after all! Well, Berwyn has been trying to get people from outside of Berwyn to come here.....but I don't think it is what the BDC intended.
Most communities that were unsuccessful in stopping meth clinics from setting up shop were due to a lack of 'zoning ordinances'. The threat of legal action seems to be lurking out there. But most articles I read mentioned how the meth clinics just kind of 'opened up' without the area residents being aware that that type of business was moving in.
Bear,
Push my butons?
You couldn't push your dentures properly into place You think you're going to push MY buttons? LOL!!!!
Vicki,
Its precisely because places like this find gaps in zoning ordinances that they are able to "just move right in".
The owner of that building, is rather a nice gentleman, and actually has made some
great improvements in the building, except for the elevator, which is very creepy!
I think he (like everyone else) was tired of having empty spaces on that 1st floor and no income
coming in. The space has been empty for well over 2 years?
A large lack of income on his end, a lucrative business offering to rent his spaces, how could he say no?
As far as the city and a law suit, it certainly would not be the first and will not be the last. I agree
if a law suit was filed on this one it would be worth the fight. (besides if the city has no money what could be
gained?)
How can anyone expect Berwyn to become that desirable place to live or to want to stay and raise their
families in that kind of environment?
To all the Aldermen/women who voted no, even though you thought in your heads you were doing the
right thing for the city in the big picture, in this case following your heart and gut instincts would have
been better for the city in the long run. Just my opinion.
I am curious, does Cicero house a Meth/Drug rehab establishment?
Quote from: SILK on July 11, 2008, 07:08:28 PM
Was a special use permit requested, or was there a variance granted?
According to what was in the city council packet, a business permit was requested by the clinic and denied by the city council in April. The reason for the denial was that 4 aldermen and the mayor believed that a clinic on the first floor of the building would violate the retail overlay law.
The case was referred back to the zoning board. The zoning board (and its lawyers) then sent an opinion back to the city council stating that the clinic fell under the retail overlay cateogry of "Group Medical use type" and that "Group Medical use type" did not fall under the restricted categories of the retail overlay law.
The matter was then sent back to the city council on Tuesday night. I think the city council vote on Tuesday, July 8, was to give the business permit to the methadone clinic (But I am not sure).
My question is this - Why can't the city just deny the business permit just because it would be deemed bad for the city? Does the city have to approve every business permit or can it deny some business permits because of the idea it may be bad for the city? Or does there have to be some reason in the law (e.g. violating the retail overlay law) for the denial of a business permit.
Why can't a business permit be denied for reasons of being bad for the city?
Ted
Too vague Ted. Leaves too much discretion to City Council, thus opening the door to litigation.
Quote from: Shelley on July 11, 2008, 10:52:03 PM
... Here's what I think might happen. July 22nd it is called up for another vote allowing Day and Ramos to vote no. Mayor breaks the tie against the methadone clinic, perhaps opening up the possibility of a lawsuit.
Can it be brought up for a vote again just because Ramos and Day were not there for the vote? I think the only way to have a re-vote is for the mayor to veto the granting of the business permit and then the city council attempting to override the veto.
I have seen re-votes in the past, but that was always a case where an alderman voting on a measure wanted to change his vote. And, the attempt to re-vote has to be motioned by that alderman and approved by the city council before the re-vote is taken.
Since neither Day nor Ramos were part of the original vote, they may not be able to request a re-vote.
But, it could come before the council again if the mayor vetoes it (I think).
Ted
Patsy?
how could he say no?
when his entire second floor becomes vacant, then I'll tell you how he could have said no.
What I find amsuing is that the gang of four did their "due diligence" on the matter, yet that "due diligence" didnlt reveal the existence of numerous pediatrician offices on the second floor. Mothers and small children are in and out of that building on a continuous basis. The building is located in a RESIDENTIAL area. The Berwyn taxpayers are all to willing to pay for this fight. Yet I guess "due diligence" didn't uncover these facts.
Quote from: SILK on July 12, 2008, 08:28:37 AM
Too vague Ted. Leaves too much discretion to City Council, thus opening the door to litigation.
Yeah, that's what I figured. But, if the city is going to have to fight a lawsuit anyway, it sounds like they are going to be up against the legal opinion of the zoning board that the clinic is a group medical use type and not one of the restricted use types (which are things like nail salons, etc.). The ZBA also said the building itself was already zoned for medical and that medical use types would not fall under the intent of retail overlay because they do not bring in sales tax revenue? At least, that is how I read the ZBA opinion.
The only other thing I can think is the part of the retail overlay law that says two businesses of the same use type cannot be withn x number of feet of each other. The mayor never explained on Tuesday why he thought a methadone clinic on the first floor would be in violation of the retail overlay law.
Ted
Ted,
In all fairness to the gang of four, one has to be very careful what's said in City Council and thus becomes part of the record. Deference also has to be paid to the zba legal opinion, for similar reasons.
Nonetheless, there simply are SOME fights that taxpayers are willing to undertake, even if it costs them $$$$ in the long run.
A methadone clinic in a residential area near a major commuter line in a building tha houses numerous pediatricians located in on the city's premier areas?
I'm sorry, but it looks like the general welfare of the berwyn resident took a backseat to pre election politicking here.
Quote from: Ted on July 12, 2008, 08:29:13 AM
[
I have seen re-votes in the past, but that was always a case where an alderman voting on a measure wanted to change his vote. And, the attempt to re-vote has to be motioned by that alderman and approved by the city council before the re-vote is taken.
I believe that many people (myself included) have e-mailed the 4 aldermen who voted yes asking
them to call for the revote. The responses I received from Lovero and Chapman indicate that they voted yes based on possible litigation against the city by the clinic. Again, I think this is a risk citizens would be willing to take. Also, if there is no legal precedent to stop methadone clinics, why not be the city to set this precedent...or at least try. Isn't that what lawyers do...represent a side in an argument? Find a way. Is there no fight left in any of these alderpeople?
One last thought: Is there a way for citizens to start a process to end a TIF district? It is my feeling that no amount of TIF dollars in the DD will make a difference in "revitalizing" that neighborhood if a methadone clinic is allowed to open there. IMHO, those TIF dollars would be better spent in our school, library, park and city. What do you think?
Shelley
The Downtown Corridor (C-2 District) borders Stanley, Windsor, Oak Park and Grove Ave. under Ordinance #07-38 approved by City Council on July 10, 2007. The intent of the ordinance is to increase the quantity, quality and diversity of retail shopping activities.
Additionally a Zoning Map Amendment, ch.1244.05 of the City code tells us Council determined the adoption of the Zoning Map Amendment to be in the best interest of the City its residents and necessary to protect the public health, safety, comfort and welfare.
http://www.berwyn-il.gov/pdf/Clerk/UpdatedOrd/07-38.pdf
The office space at 3245 Grove is within the Downtown Corridor. A methadone clinic in this space will not increase quantity, quality, diversity of retail shopping nor is it in the best interest of the City and its residents. In fact, research on methadone clinics tells me the public health, safety, comfort and welfare will place the City and its residents at risk.
The Mayor was most likely reminding Council of the Downtown Corridor Ordinance of which I believe Alderman Chapman sponsored.
i'm not sure there IS a way to combat this type of thing, legally. Nonetheless, that doesn't mean you put yur hands up and surrender.
Make it blatantly OBVIOUS to the building and clinic owners that this type of business is NOT WANTED in Berwyn.
Quote from: Ted on July 12, 2008, 08:29:13 AM
Quote from: Shelley on July 11, 2008, 10:52:03 PM
... Here's what I think might happen. July 22nd it is called up for another vote allowing Day and Ramos to vote no. Mayor breaks the tie against the methadone clinic, perhaps opening up the possibility of a lawsuit.
Can it be brought up for a vote again just because Ramos and Day were not there for the vote? I think the only way to have a re-vote is for the mayor to veto the granting of the business permit and then the city council attempting to override the veto.
I have seen re-votes in the past, but that was always a case where an alderman voting on a measure wanted to change his vote. And, the attempt to re-vote has to be motioned by that alderman and approved by the city council before the re-vote is taken.
Since neither Day nor Ramos were part of the original vote, they may not be able to request a re-vote.
But, it could come before the council again if the mayor vetoes it (I think).
Ted
I think an Alderman is able to ask for a re-vote allowing the excused Alderman to cast a vote but the Alderman who voted cannot change their vote. Ted, OPS do you recall if the Mayor in fact vetoed this vote on Tuesday?
What ever happen to the good old fashion PROTEST?
Its cheap, fairly easy and very affective. Make signs, march, yell and add in some good old fashion American civil disobedience!!
Protest council, protest at the location.
Can they sue us for protesting?
its certinly a possibility, although I'm not a big fan of the Wednesday pow wow organized by OC.
Quote from: Terri on July 12, 2008, 10:00:50 AM
Ted, OPS do you recall if the Mayor in fact vetoed this vote on Tuesday?
I think if there were to be a veto, the veto would be presented to the city council at tne next meeting. I don't think the mayor said anything Tuesday night about vetoing this.
Ted
Quote from: SILK on July 12, 2008, 10:19:54 AM
its certinly a possibility, although I'm not a big fan of the Wednesday pow wow organized by OC.
I wonder if the city will be providing lawn chairs...Maybe OC will line up some
entertainment to quell the masses.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 12, 2008, 07:30:35 AM
As far as the city and a law suit, it certainly would not be the first and will not be the last. I agree
if a law suit was filed on this one it would be worth the fight. (besides if the city has no money what could be
gained?)
Remember... certain alderman voted to make the citizens pay for Phelan's mess (at any cost) and any other
future transgressions... so ...no big deal there.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 12, 2008, 07:30:35 AM
I think he (like everyone else) was tired of having empty spaces on that 1st floor and no income
coming in. The space has been empty for well over 2 years?
A large lack of income on his end, a lucrative business offering to rent his spaces, how could he say no?
following your heart and gut instincts would have been better for the city in the long run. Just my opinion.
Let's just fill the voids in the Depot District!
Hey, how 'bout a strip club!? Big $$
I think an Adult Book Store in the Depot District would be kinda cute.
They would fill a huge void (NPI) and would be better for the city in the long run. Just my opinion.
Let me be your alderman...I'll give you some "gut instincts."
This message was approved by Bonster.
Finally Bonster comes with a solution that is worthy of the Depot Dist.
You know - Bonster is on the right track. It may be inevitable.
My logic here is that our aldermen are stepping back instead of stepping up - hey, there is a threat of a lawsuit (throw hands up here). Let's not make any attempt to prevent this. We may be sued.
Isn't that why the city has a legal counsel and business insurance? I wonder if legal counsel offered an opinion here prior to the vote.
Boy...that is a huge welcome invitation to any type of 'retail' business that wants to come into Berwyn. Since we aren't going to fight them at all. What a great strategy. Someone alert the BDC to update their advertising campaign to add the words 'red light district' above that dot representing Berwyn.
The zoning map amendment seems worded to allow denial based upon 'best interests of the city'. Thanks for posting Terri. I'm zeroing in on that one.
Two people I want to hear from now - the city attorney and the owner of the clinic (Liz Buonauro). Liz...both you and director Sal Sottile have signed up for accounts on BTF. So please join the discussion. You have a wonderful forum to change the tide of opinion that is currently against your clinic. Both of you have ties to Berwy, so you must feel that you are acting in the best interest of our city.
Sal, I'm assuming you are the same Sal R. Sottile who is an architect by profession and also have a base business office (Arcotech Corporation
3437 S. Grove Ave) out of Berwyn: http://www.arcotechcorp.com/
It looks like you are a member of the BDC and have done some work for Berwyn in the past.
Two more questions for Tuesday:
1) If the zoning is denied, would the clinic move forward with a lawsuit?
2) Is your presence in this office space short term or long term? What benefits do you see your clinic and business presence bringing to Berwyn's city and its residents?
Thanks - Vicki
The Bobby Buonauro Clinic
07/12/08
I write these responses to your concerns as myself, I do not hide behind "user names" making comments.
I believe there is a real misconception about Clinics.
I encourage people to contact me to learn the truth and not what they have heard or seen on TV.
I tried on several occasions to meet with the Mayor and Aldermen, to explain exactly what we are planning. They never gave us the opportunity.
We run a clean friendly operation. We have a security guard, to make sure everything is orderly, He is not "armed" that's ridiculous.
We have had a clinic in Evanston for almost 6 years. There have been no problems. The landlord is very happy with us. The doctors in the building are happy with us. In fact we bring business to these doctors and the surrounding area. There are several types of medical offices in the building including Pediatricians.
No one is hanging out on the streets.
There is no drug dealing in front of the clinic.
There has been no increase in crime.
Methadone is tablet, dissolved in liquid and drank. It not injected. There are no needles. It is used sometimes as pain control for cancer patients, which we have several of.
We invite you to visit our clinic in Evanston, talk to our Landlord. You will be pleasantly surprised.
20% of our clients do not know what heroin is; they are fighting addictions from pain medications, portions are upper-middle class kids. 18 -25 year olds, addicted because of the new purer heroin on the streets.
I have lived in Berwyn for over 17 years, Liz for over 20.
The clinic location is less then less than 2 blocks from our home. We would not jeopardize our home or the Depot District if we thought we were bringing in undesirables into Berwyn.
We are truly trying to help people.
Sincerely,
Sal R. Sottile, Assistant Director
Vicki,
Red light businesse are different than a methadone clinic, in all fairness.
Methadone clincis fall under the "medical" umbrella, for zoning purposes. Adult bookstores, for example, don't.
What I don't get is some of the aldermen who voted yay are the same ones who have no problem digging into the taxpayers ocket for Phelan- legal costs andqor their own health insurance. Why not for a fight the taxpayers re all too willing to undertake?
Sal, I thank you for the response and assurance that all will be well on Grove Ave.
The group of people who have expressed concerns, I am sure will still have their doubts,
including myself that this is in the best interest of Berwyn's growth and development.
I am a little surprised that your requests to the Mayor and Aldermen/women to meet
were ignored.
I admire your honesty. I have lived in Berwyn until recently for 32 years, and can tell you , even
if I could have, wanted to I would never have brought a business as such to any part of Berwyn,
Where will your clients be coming from? What section of Evanston is your clinic located in?
Evanston has a beautiful section of a medical district, in the downtown area as I remember.
Thank you again for responding. Pat Raymond
Mr. Sottile,
Thank you for your responses. The residents who post on this board have a deep commitment to our City and as taxpayers we deserve to be informed of issues that effect the lives of our families. Our Alderman were not open with the citizens when they dropped the ball and choose not to have a public hearing and at the very least informing the residents (not to mention tenants at 3245 Grove) of a methadone clinic opening in the Downtown Corridor.
You are an architect by trade, please tell us your qualifications to serve as Assistant Director of a methadone clinic. The two careers paths seem to be miles apart. May I ask, are you married to Liz Buonauro, is this a family business?
I will never be convinced a methadone clinic is a step in the right direction for the City of Berwyn.
Nor will I, having to take my kids to their pediatrician on the2nd floor of that building.
-SILK
Why does everything have to be a step in the right direction for this City i.e turning this small depot dist into downtown LaGrange? Isn't serving the needs of the community a step in the right direction? Whether we like it or not the patients of this proposed clinic are already living next door to you, you are walking your kids by them everyday and most likely shopping with them at the market. Go check out the Evanston site and see what it is , how it's run and then formulate a positive or negative opinion.
As a new resident of Berwyn, I find this very upsetting. I will be at the meeting on Wednesday. I do have a quick question.
Is this Clinic considered Medical and Mental Health? Was the 708 Mental Health Mental Board approached? How about the Township Trustees? Are they involved in Mental Health? Don't they give out General Assistance? Will this draw people to move to Berwyn for the location of their Meth. and then be able to file for GA. Won't that use more of our tax dollars?
Are they members of the BDC?
Just some questions. I hope this doesn't sound too niave, however, I just have to wonder.
Frank,
I agree. Why move in the right direction when you can remain stagnant, or better yet, move in the wrong direction?
btw, isn't the motto MOVE BERWYN FORWARD?
We all have so many questions, and this is a good thing.
What are some of the health care Insurance companies that your business is contracted with?
Are you contracted with or accept Medicaid programs?
Quote from: Allen on July 12, 2008, 02:28:53 PM
As a new resident of Berwyn, I find this very upsetting. I will be at the meeting on Wednesday. I do have a quick question.
Is this Clinic considered Medical and Mental Health? Was the 708 Mental Health Mental Board approached? How about the Township Trustees? Are they involved in Mental Health? Don't they give out General Assistance? Will this draw people to move to Berwyn for the location of their Meth. and then be able to file for GA. Won't that use more of our tax dollars?
Are they members of the BDC?
Just some questions. I hope this doesn't sound too niave, however, I just have to wonder.
In trying to find some answers, I came across the following:
Bobby Buonauro Clinic Inc
1029 West Howard Street
Evanston IL 60202
Phone: (847) 869-1808
Primary Focus: Substance abuse treatment services
Services Provided: Substance abuse treatment, Detoxification, Methadone Maintenance, Methadone Detoxification
Type of Care: Outpatient
Special Programs/Groups: Pregnant/postpartum women, DUI/DWI offenders
Forms of Payment Accepted: Self payment, Private health insurance
Special Language Services: Russian
Elizabeth BuonauroLiz Buonauro is the executive director of the Bobby Buonauro Clinic, a methadone maintenance treatment clinic which opened in Evanston, IL. three years ago. The clinic is named for her late husband, Bobby, who worked for many years at the Illinois State Department of Alcoholism and Drug Abuse
And, as far as I can tell - the following may have been written in 1995. It appears this clinic has now moved to 555 Roosevelt Road, Chicago:
NIMBY Alive & Well in ChicagoAfter a six month search for a location, the new methadone clinic was finally ready to open. Furniture was installed; staff hired. Then last June, Bob Buonauro, Executive Director of the Chicago Treatment and Counseling Center, Inc., 601 W. Polk Street, Chicago, IL 60610, learned firsthand about NIMBY (Not In My Back Yard) Chicago style.
When he took his application to the Illinois Department of Alcohol and Substance Abuse (DASA) they said he'd need zoning approval from the City of Chicago. This was news to Buonauro even though he had worked in area methadone programs for many years. But, no problem, he went across the street to the zoning office.
The zoning administrator agreed that the inner city location was suitably zoned for a medical clinic, but after delaying a decision for several weeks Buonauro's request was denied. Why? The zoning administrator was uncertain that the program qualified as a medical clinic and advised Buonauro to talk to the ward alderman.
the alderman claimed a program like Buonauro's wasn't needed in his ward; that they already had plenty of social service programs. he told Buonauro to go to someone else's ward. This even though according to Buonauro, most programs have a waiting list of 200 to 300 people, and a recent newspaper article reported that 95% of people applying are turned away from drug rehabilitation programs in Chicago. In fact, Buonauro already had a list of 350 people waiting to come into his clinic.
Buonauro's only recourse was to hire a lawyer and file an appeal with the city. They were finally given a hearing date in October. Between June and October, while Buonauro was paying rent and salaries on a never-opened facility, the alderman solicited letters objecting to a new methadone clinic in the ward and tried to introduce a new city ordinance further restricting methadone programs.
Buonauro's lawyer did some research and found that, in a prior case which went all the way to the Illinois Appellate Court, a program like theirs was indeed classified as a medical clinic. The Chicago Zoning Board was thus obligated to approve zoning for Buonauro's program and they opened last November.
Buonauro says, "The most important thing I've learned from all this is not to take anything for granted.
Thank you LL. I too have been trying to do some research into this program. I would not want to deny people the help they need. I am more upset about the location.
I found the same information that you did. On the one web page I found a blog. People that are using methadone to help their addiction problems and depression chat with one another. Some of the comments were disturbing. The following are a few comments.
Methadone Reply to this Comment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Methadone is just another gateway drug to get off one thing and onto another. I will admit it did keep my husband off the streets looking for heroin but on the other hand, he has been taking methadone for the last 10 years and is now addicted to that. The clinics do not try to help you get off because they would be out of business. Also they raise the price almost every month so its more expensive than drugs now. He would never go back to heroin but now he is stuck trying to get off methadone wich is alot harder when you have doctors giving it to you and not saying to ever get off. If you have a drug problem the best thing is too just toughen up and get clean. Replacing one thing with another is just as stressful and expensive.
Suboxone Reply to this Comment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
recently my boyfriend admitted himself into the hospital for detox. he was addicted to heroin for about a year. His doctor put him on Suboxone, then took him off it 1 month later. My boyfriend then relapsed back to heroin, then went back to the hospital, and is now back on Suboxone. Just this weekend he ate his last pill and his appointment was monday. he was going through bad withdrawls... the same ones he would get if he was using heroin again. why is this happening?
Hi My name is Tonya I was on Methadone for about 3 years and I switched to suboxone andi was very sick the first 3 days but the reason i was sick is because you are supppose to take subutex to switch over from meth and then go onto the suboxone. But I can tell you this you are not as sleepy like you are on the methadone. i would rather take suboxone than the methadone anyday. the only thing is the suboxone is very expensive if you don't have insurance. Me and my husband changed over and we had all ready earned up to a weeks of methadone take home.
Wednesday should be very interesting. I want to learn more about this clinic and why they choice this particular location.
Quote from: Allen on July 12, 2008, 06:35:21 PM
Thank you LL. I too have been trying to do some research into this program. I would not want to deny people the help they need. I am more upset about the location.
I found the same information that you did. On the one web page I found a blog. People that are using methadone to help their addiction problems and depression chat with one another. Some of the comments were disturbing. The following are a few comments.
Methadone Reply to this Comment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Methadone is just another gateway drug to get off one thing and onto another. I will admit it did keep my husband off the streets looking for heroin but on the other hand, he has been taking methadone for the last 10 years and is now addicted to that. The clinics do not try to help you get off because they would be out of business. Also they raise the price almost every month so its more expensive than drugs now. He would never go back to heroin but now he is stuck trying to get off methadone wich is alot harder when you have doctors giving it to you and not saying to ever get off. If you have a drug problem the best thing is too just toughen up and get clean. Replacing one thing with another is just as stressful and expensive.
Suboxone Reply to this Comment
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
recently my boyfriend admitted himself into the hospital for detox. he was addicted to heroin for about a year. His doctor put him on Suboxone, then took him off it 1 month later. My boyfriend then relapsed back to heroin, then went back to the hospital, and is now back on Suboxone. Just this weekend he ate his last pill and his appointment was monday. he was going through bad withdrawls... the same ones he would get if he was using heroin again. why is this happening?
Hi My name is Tonya I was on Methadone for about 3 years and I switched to suboxone andi was very sick the first 3 days but the reason i was sick is because you are supppose to take subutex to switch over from meth and then go onto the suboxone. But I can tell you this you are not as sleepy like you are on the methadone. i would rather take suboxone than the methadone anyday. the only thing is the suboxone is very expensive if you don't have insurance. Me and my husband changed over and we had all ready earned up to a weeks of methadone take home.
Wednesday should be very interesting. I want to learn more about this clinic and why they choice this particular location.
I'm, thinking they chose this location because it is in an area that has a lot of medical offices and such.
If not the untouchable depot dist then where should this place be located? If they were putting it on say the south side of Roosevelt and Kenilworth, still Berwyn people, would any of you be so outraged? I doubt it. Out of sight out of mind for the South Berwynites who still believe Berwyn runs from Windsor to 39th St. and Oak Park to Harlem.
Sals little ditty was quite amazing, and some of you were naive enough to swallow it.
He makes it sound like his "patients" (that is a stretch, I am sure there is NO md on staff) will simply
be coming over to Aunt Bea's for a cup of tea.
Bull, this biz will be bringing several hundred drug users into the DD.
Drug users do several things. They steal, they commit crime, lie, and cheat
to only serve themselves. They will do ANYTHING to serve their jones.
I don't want those types venturing into my hood.
The city is daft if they don't fight this thru the courts. Gut instinct tells me Sal would not
have the bucks to mount a legal defense against such. Legal precedence on nuisance ord
would prevail, hands down.
Sal and Liz are Berwyn residents? I am sure your neighbors are very fond of you.
If this carnival does open, any politico who was near the crime, either for or against
is doomed.
I personally don't think that people are upset that it is in South Berwyn. I think what is upsetting people is that fact that it is going it a building that has four pediatricians on the second floor. At least, that is what has upset me the most. If we need a Methadone Clinic in Berwyn, put it in the Berwyn Health Department Building.
I was doing a bit more research into the Clinic and found a Medical Mal-Practice Lawsuit filed against the Clinic. 2005-L-000378.
I think the Doctors who will be involved here are not from Family Practice. Probably
Psychologist, psychiatrist, more help in counseling is what will be needed in this type of clinic.
I believe it was stated in the request the clinic would also employ an RN, and of course a
receptionist.
Another question, do these clients have appointments or is it just come on by and drop in during
open hours?
Parking, has anyone given one thought to the parking nightmare this is going to cause?
so I assume you're saying the gang of four (#1, #4, #6 and #7) is doomed?
my last comment was directed to bear
Frank White, maybe they considered Cicero, but wanted to be able to walk to
work?
Quote from: frank white on July 12, 2008, 07:04:51 PM
I'm, thinking they chose this location because it is in an area that has a lot of medical offices and such.
If not the untouchable depot dist then where should this place be located? If they were putting it on say the south side of Roosevelt and Kenilworth, still Berwyn people, would any of you be so outraged? I doubt it. Out of sight out of mind for the South Berwynites who still believe Berwyn runs from Windsor to 39th St. and Oak Park to Harlem.
How about Cicero or Bellwood.
Frank,
Why ANY part of Berwyn at all?
You speak as if a methdone clinic is inevitable andqor necessary in Berwyn.
Quote from: frank white on July 12, 2008, 07:04:51 PM
I'm, thinking they chose this location because it is in an area that has a lot of medical offices and such.
True... the train access makes it easily accessible to all the addicts who don't or shouldn't be driving.
Quote from: Shelley on July 12, 2008, 09:00:22 AM
Is there a way for citizens to start a process to end a TIF district? It is my feeling that no amount of TIF dollars in the DD will make a difference in "revitalizing" that neighborhood if a methadone clinic is allowed to open there. IMHO, those TIF dollars would be better spent in our school, library, park and city. What do you think?
Shelley
Anyone? I had heard that there was a process for citizens to pursue ending a TIF district.
Quote from: Shelley on July 12, 2008, 09:00:22 AM
One last thought: Is there a way for citizens to start a process to end a TIF district? It is my feeling that no amount of TIF dollars in the DD will make a difference in "revitalizing" that neighborhood if a methadone clinic is allowed to open there. IMHO, those TIF dollars would be better spent in our school, library, park and city. What do you think?
Bear sez the TIF is ultimately necessary to revitalize the DD.
Quote from: Bear on May 14, 2008, 11:27:39 PM
There has to be a small business base developed before larger concerns would look at Berwyn.
Face reality, those of you who moan have no clue of what is involved in being a small biz owner. If I were to open a small sandwich shop or whatever, I can assure you given choice, Berwyn would be last on my list given poor survival rate in ANY market. If I was offered assistance to survive in a tough
clime, I sure as heck would look at that opportunity. That assitance and my business survival might entice another mope like me to open shop with another cool biz next door to me.
The BDC is the best deal we have going to make this kind of stuff happen...100K and 60K invested
by the BDC to help two biz concerns succeed?...A pittance of an investment if they flourish and draw
more shop keeps to Berwyn.
OC has always had a problem with TIF money, because it is something he can not control, plain and simple. #3's posturing is disheartening in this regard.
Hey...It is easy to cut me a fresh one on TIF money and how it could go elsewhere, but if you want
growth, we have to run with this.
He lives there, so I'll assume he's got a good feel for what has to happen.
Guess you just have to take the good with the bad, eh?
What would be worse- this or the storefront church?
The BDC didn't invest anything. The city approved use of TIF money. Big difference.
I thought that was TIF money that the BDC had used?
BDC recommends. Council approves.
In addition to the objections already noted, has anyone noticed that this clinic will be located on a primary route to Heritage Middle School? The clinic in Evanston opens at 5:00am, so students walking to school would have a good chance of encountering the clinic clients on their way to school. Aside from exposing 6th - 8th graders to this unsavory element, there is the real risk of these children being viewed as easy targets for crimes of opportunity.
Quote from: mominator on July 13, 2008, 04:42:34 AM
In addition to the objections already noted, has anyone noticed that this clinic will be located on a primary route to Heritage Middle School? The clinic in Evanston opens at 5:00am, so students walking to school would have a good chance of encountering the clinic clients on their way to school. Aside from exposing 6th - 8th graders to this unsavory element, there is the real risk of these children being viewed as easy targets for crimes of opportunity.
Also, isn't there a day care center a block away at the church at 34th & Grove?
Quote from: Shelley on July 12, 2008, 11:45:51 PM
Anyone? I had heard that there was a process for citizens to pursue ending a TIF district.
SHelley, the DD TIF district is up for renewal. It expires in the next few years. Renewal of the TIF district is contingent on approval from all affected school districts and park districts as well as the city of Berwyn. If people are interested in having the TIF district expire, they can protest and complain to the school districts and the south Berwyn park district.
I know DIstrict 201 had this on their agenda a few months ago, but I don't think any action was taken (unless it was taken at a meeting I did not attend).
Ted
Here's a bit of info; relevant, I don't know. Sal Sottile, the assistant director of the clinic, and architect by trade, was chosen by the PAV YMCA to oversee it's $3.5 million expansion. You'd think he would be too busy to direct a methadone clinic --- he must be quite a multi-tasker. Either way, it appears he may have some clout in Berwyn.
Quote from: mominator on July 13, 2008, 06:23:24 AM
Here's a bit of info; relevant, I don't know. Sal Sottile, the assistant director of the clinic, and architect by trade, was chosen by the PAV YMCA to oversee it's $3.5 million expansion. You'd think he would be too busy to direct a methadone clinic --- he must be quite a multi-tasker. Either way, it appears he may have some clout in Berwyn.
I heard this but didn't have confirmation, thanks. How does the the building owner Richard Oudeh figure into this? He owns the Oudeh Building 3245 Grove and Cigarettes, Etc. Does Mr. Oudeh own all the buildings on the block? More importantly, why did he fail to communicate the leasing of the space with his long time tenants at 3245 Grove? He may end up the biggest looser, instead of empty space on the first floor, his entire second floor will be vacant.
Yes, but the sales of cigarettes and snacks will skyrocket! The new Berwyn slogan will be "Get your fix on Route 66".
Quote from: mominator on July 13, 2008, 09:33:42 AM
Yes, but the sales of cigarettes and snacks will skyrocket! The new Berwyn slogan will be "Get your fix on Route 66".
roflmao :D ;D
The Bobby Buonauro Clinic
07/13/08
Here is an interesting fact: Did you know that Methadone is the most controlled drug in the world, yes, that's right, the world.
Now here is my point:
Bear
I take offence at your bad mouthing me, my wife, our clients and/or our Clinic.
What are you talking about, what facts do you have. Have you even seen our clinic in Evanston? They are coming to the clinic to stop using, they are not coming to get a fix. There is no crime. Stop making up stories.
You can take your gut instinct and .....
What do you know about my finances? Do you think I am alone in this? Do you not think that there organizations to help us?
In fact our neighbors are very fond of us, what would you know?
Quit hiding behind your user name,
mominator
Yes, I am a Local Architect, and a hell of a multi-tasker.
No I do not have clout in Berwyn (where did you hear this one? you are making me laugh.)
Sincerely,
Sal R. Sottile, Assistant Director
Mr. Sottile -
Please explain how your clinic helps people to stop using; methadone is just a substitute for heroin, is it not? How does an addict stop using methadone?
Also, please explain your incentive to be in this business.
I believe the facts on methadone are out there for you to find mominator if you just knew how to use a search engine. And besides you are starting to sound quite foolish besides that moniker of yours I mean.
The question was addressed to Mr. Sottile. When I want your opinion, it will be addressed Frank White.
Quote from: Sal R. Sottile on July 13, 2008, 10:10:58 AM
The Bobby Buonauro Clinic
07/13/08
Here is an interesting fact: Did you know that Methadone is the most controlled drug in the world, yes, that's right, the world.
Now here is my point:
Bear
I take offence at your bad mouthing me, my wife, our clients and/or our Clinic.
What are you talking about, what facts do you have. Have you even seen our clinic in Evanston? They are coming to the clinic to stop using, they are not coming to get a fix. There is no crime. Stop making up stories.
You can take your gut instinct and .....
What do you know about my finances? Do you think I am alone in this? Do you not think that there organizations to help us?
In fact our neighbors are very fond of us, what would you know?
Quit hiding behind your user name,
mominator
Yes, I am a Local Architect, and a hell of a multi-tasker.
No I do not have clout in Berwyn (where did you hear this one? you are making me laugh.)
Sincerely,
Sal R. Sottile, Assistant Director
Mr. Sottile,
WHY BERWYN? What type of grants or funding does the Bobby Buonauro received? How many private investors does this FOR PROFIT clinic have? You may have missed my question in an earlier post, what are your qualifications as the Assistant Director of the Bobby Buonauro Clinic?
Mr. Oudeh and your family misjudged the decision to occupy the space for the methadone clinic. The residents of Berwyn have spent countless hours to revitalize our entire community and take away the misconception that Berwyn is a stepping stone to a better community. They have volunteered time to better our schools, they are involved in MainStreet, the Historical Society, Roosevelt Road Planning Association, the BDC, park programs are growing, the 16th Street Theatre is taking root. The City is spending tax dollars to market and brand our neighborhoods so Berwyn will be the City of choice to raise families and stay until you grow old.
You are a resident, expect our City to fail if you open your clinic. The BDC's marketing program will also fail once the media gets hold of this story. I have many friends who are patients at FGM Pediatrics who travel as far away as Lemont for the trust, personal and professional care they receive from the Doctors and staff. Think they will make the trip into Berwyn and risk meeting a junkie in the lobby while holding their children's hands?
Did any of you, Alderman included think this would go unnoticed? Our City leaders (loose term) should have had the foresight to inform the residents or vote no. Yet they were afraid of a lawsuit, lucky you.
BTW, everyone knows Bear. In fact he is your neighbor and a long time resident.
I still fail to see how one clinic os going to make this City fail. And if we are on such a precarious spot that something like this will cause the total downfall then how well off are we? The marketing program will fail? Where has it succeeded? I mean come on what's next Terri dogs and cats living together? I'm not saying it's good or bad but some of this stuff is ridiculous and you people are a good reason why this city will never go anywhere. That's right folks never go anywhere.
Now I'm off to a real depot dist(LaGrange) to spend my money and be around civilized people. Damn Bumpkins!
Quote from: frank white on July 13, 2008, 11:29:25 AM
I still fail to see how one clinic os going to make this City fail. And if we are on such a precarious spot that something like this will cause the total downfall then how well off are we? The marketing program will fail? Where has it succeeded? I mean come on what's next Terri dogs and cats living together? I'm not saying it's good or bad but some of this stuff is ridiculous and you people are a good reason why this city will never go anywhere. That's right folks never go anywhere.
Now I'm off to a real depot dist(LaGrange) to spend my money and be around civilized people. Damn Bumpkins!
Let suppose you've invested in a newly constructed Condo on Stanley, your unit faces south with a bird's eye view of Grove Ave. or better you live in the condos directly south of 3245 Grove. Would you be pleased with your investment?
Sal, you have not answered many questions asked of you here.
You have chosen to come on this board, but you have only added more
fear, and doubts by not coming forward with answers. Your choice again.
Maybe there will be a A#Q session on Wednesday?
IMHO, Terri and others have said it plainly. Your clinic should not be
placed in a building shared within 50 feet of a busy Pediatric practice, besides
many other reasons.
I make it a point to ignore anyone who uses the phrases "you people" or "people like you". It has served me well.
-Rob
Quote from: Terri on July 13, 2008, 11:36:39 AM
Quote from: frank white on July 13, 2008, 11:29:25 AM
I still fail to see how one clinic os going to make this City fail. And if we are on such a precarious spot that something like this will cause the total downfall then how well off are we? The marketing program will fail? Where has it succeeded? I mean come on what's next Terri dogs and cats living together? I'm not saying it's good or bad but some of this stuff is ridiculous and you people are a good reason why this city will never go anywhere. That's right folks never go anywhere.
Now I'm off to a real depot dist(LaGrange) to spend my money and be around civilized people. Damn Bumpkins!
Let suppose you've invested in a newly constructed Condo on Stanley, your unit faces south with a bird's eye view of Grove Ave. or better you live in the condos directly south of 3245 Grove. Would you be pleased with your investment?
I see your point and I was being a bit facetious in my post but that is not at all how you presented your case or others here have either. I'm not for or against this place but I do think there should be serious discussion on it and not the world is coming to an end scenario put forth constantly.
Now I have to take my children to their Mandarin Chinese/Russian/Spanish/iItalian/French class so they can become better citizens of the world and arrogant asses on an internet forum.
Frank,
What, no Papiamento classes?
Methadone & You
Understanding
MMT Clinic Rules
Who makes all the rules?
Rules and regulations governing MMT clinics come from federal, state, and local authorities. Clinics must follow these to stay licensed to practice medicine, to distribute methadone, and to remain welcome in the community.
MMT clinics are subject to regular, unannounced inspections, so they must abide by every one of those rules, without exception, all the time. This may seem rather rigid, but your clinic has no choice.
Some clinics also have their own rules for your safety, such as those dealing with behavior in the clinic.
Other rules help your clinic stay in good standing with neighbors; for example, no loitering outside the building.
Whatever the rule, there is a reason behind it.
Why is methadone so restricted?
Ever since its development as a maintenance treatment for opioid addiction more than 35 years ago, methadone has been strictly controlled by the government.
That is, specific rules and regulations determine how much methadone may be prescribed, when, where, and to whom. This is because methadone is a very powerful drug with potential for abuse. It could be extremely harmful if used improperly or by the wrong persons.
An MMT clinic must account for every drop of methadone it receives and dispenses. For this reason, there are many rules to follow concerning the proper handling and care of methadone doses.
MMT medical staff tailor methadone doses to individual needs. However, special permission must be obtained from state or federal authorities to prescribe methadone doses above certain limits. So there may be clinic rules regarding who might qualify for higher doses and under what circumstances.
Similarly, there also are rules for methadone dose reductions or stopping the medication entirely called "detoxification" or "medically supervised withdrawal" which are for your safety and welfare.
Methadone should never be stopped abruptly or reduced too fast, or you could get sick and feel intense drug craving.
Who is allowed take-home doses?
Normally, methadone doses must be taken every day under supervision at the clinic. Federal and state regulations control who may have doses of methadone to take home – take-homes – and how many days at a time. Take-homes are an earned privilege.
Generally, take-homes are available only to persons comfortable on their methadone dose, avoiding all drugs of abuse, following clinic rules, cooperating with staff, and having a stable home life. Take-home dose privileges can be canceled if certain rules aren't followed requiring proper care of the medication and ongoing participation in treatment.
OTPs: Past, Current, Future Part II
Publisher's note: This is the second in a series of articles exploring changes that have occurred in Opioid Treatment Programs (OTPs) since the inception of Medication-Assisted Treatment (MAT) in the 1960s. The Winter 2008 edition of AT Forum reviewed changing attitudes toward opioid dependence and its treatment that were influenced by key reports and regulations from the 1990s. These key events continue to transform MAT. In this issue, we will focus on how the characteristics of OTP patients have changed over the last 10 to 15 years.
Changing Patient Profiles in OTPs
OTP Admissions Continue to Grow
The number of patients entering MAT in OTPs has grown steadily through the years.
Starting with only 400 patients in 1968, the number of people entering OTPs has more than doubled between 1993 and 2006, from 117,000 to 260,000 (see Figure 1).
Patient Population is Changing
Characteristics of patients entering OTPs have changed significantly over the past decade.
• Patient admissions for prescription opioid dependence are rapidly increasing.
• Younger and older people are entering treatment.
• Today's patients are more likely to be entering treatment with multiple substance-abuse disorders.
• More new patients have co-occurring physical or mental health disorders or both.
• Still, patients are becoming more educated about MAT, they're taking a greater part in helping other patients, and they're interacting more closely with their OTPs. The past decade has seen a rise in patient advocacy.
Prescription Drug Abuse on the Rise
Prescription drug abuse is a significant, emerging problem in the U.S. that has led to an influx of patients entering treatment for prescription opioid dependence. According to the 2006 National Survey on Drug Use and Health, 7 million people took prescription drugs for non-medical purposes during the past year. Admissions to all substance-abuse facilities for patients whose primary substance of abuse is prescription opioids increased 360 percent in the past decade. In 2006, prescription opioid abusers accounted for 22 percent of all opioid admissions, compared with only 6 percent a decade ago (see Figure 2).
Patients are Younger – And Older – Than Before
Heroin- and prescription opioid-dependent patients are entering treatment at an earlier age. During the past 10 years, the percentage of people age 20 to 24 admitted for heroin abuse increased by two-thirds, while the percentage more than doubled for prescription opioid admissions.
Patients entering treatment are older than before. Some methadone-maintained patients have aged while in MAT, and others are entering treatment for the first time in their 50s, 60s, and 70s.
The percentage of heroin admissions among people age 50 and older has more than doubled in the past 10 years. While prescription-opioid admissions among that same age group have remained stable over the past decade, the National Institute of Drug Abuse indicated that their number could rise 190 percent over the next two decades.
Patients Are Demographically More Diverse
Patients entering treatment for prescription opioid-dependence are different demographically than patients entering treatment for heroin abuse.
Patients admitted for treatment of prescription opioid-dependence in 2006 were more likely to be white, female, to have some college education, and to be employed full-time, compared to heroin admissions (see sidebar).
Secondary Substance Abuse is on the Rise
In the early years of MAT, the majority of patients entering OTPs abused only heroin. Today, approximately two-thirds of heroin- and opioid prescription drug-abusers entering substance abuse treatment reported at least one secondary substance of abuse.
Demographic Differences in Patient Opioid Admissions
In 2006 prescription opioid admissions were more likely than heroin admissions to :
• be white (88% vs. 52%)
• be female (46% vs. 32%)
• have some college education
(30% vs. 17%)
• be employed full-time (29% vs.19%)
Prescription opioid-dependent admissions are more likely to report secondary use of marijuana, while heroin admissions are more likely to report cocaine as a secondary substance of abuse.
About one-fourth of both patient groups are also dependent on alcohol.
Treatment Needs are More Complex
The treatment of opioid dependence is often compounded by other physical and mental disorders in OTP patients, including hepatitis B and C, HIV, and mental illness.
Infection with hepatitis C virus (HCV) – a common complication of injection drug use – is now the most prominent and worrisome co-occurring physical disease among OTP patients. The prevalence of chronic HCV infection is estimated to be 67 percent to 96 percent in patients enrolled in OTPs. Yet most OTP patients are not receiving treatment for HCV, and no vaccine is available (See article below).
Since the HIV epidemic began, injection drug use has directly and indirectly accounted for more than one-third (36 percent) of all AIDS cases in the United States. In 2006, injection drug users accounted for 13 percent of HIV/AIDS diagnoses, compared with 22 percent just three years earlier.
Improved screening and prevention methods among OTP clinicians and patients, as well as aggressive treatment options, have helped diminish the prevalence of HIV/AIDS and other infectious diseases, such as tuberculosis. They also have greatly increased the quality of life among patients who are infected.
Opioid addiction and co-occurring mental disorders are also common in patients entering OTPs. Reports have varied, but overall, nearly three-quarters of OTP patients may have experienced a mental illness of some sort during their lives. More than half have a mood disorder, such as depression or anxiety, when entering treatment.
Patients are More Involved
Today's OTP patients – especially older individuals who have been in therapy continuously or repeatedly over many years – are well-informed about their treatment. Longer-term methadone patients often provide OTPs with valuable insight about meeting patients' needs. They also suggest reasonable goals and expectations of treatment.
Some programs have added patients to their advisory boards and organized patient advisory committees. In some cases, those boards and other patient liaisons have helped OTPs respond to patient and community concerns before the concern became problematic. Many clinics also seek input from their patients via patient satisfaction surveys that ask: "What do you think of the treatment you're receiving? What is working for you? What isn't?"
Today's patients are also effective treatment allies, engaging in activities that help extend the treatment network. The National Alliance of Methadone Advocates has led the movement to protect patients' rights and to ensure that their perspectives are heard by providers and policymakers. Methadone-based recovery peer-support groups, such as Methadone Anonymous, are rapidly expanding, giving patients opportunities to interact outside an OTP with others who have been in or have completed treatment.
Quote from: rbain on July 13, 2008, 12:17:30 PM
I make it a point to ignore anyone who uses the phrases "you people" or "people like you". It has served me well.
-Rob
Rob, no matter how hard you try, you can't ignore our precious City Clerk!
Quote from: Tom Pavlik on July 12, 2008, 09:40:36 AM
just catching up on the stupid blog. Please get your information straight, you people make me sick!
Thank you Liz for posting all that important information on what Meth is/does and how it can
treat or be mis treated.
You still have not answered some of the other important questions that have been asked here on this
topic.
I am getting the opinion that you are skirting around the questions asked. Hope I am wrong.
This is SUCH an incredible disappointment to me. Not that I thought Berwyn would ever become Winnetka or anything but this really sucks for our community.
My brother was a heroin addict. He was eventually put on a high dosage of methadone, and weaned to a lesser dosage, though once he went off the methadone, he turned to crack. No matter what BS people tell you and how they may try to pull the wool over your eyes, do not believe it. Once an addict, always an addict. Sure, there may be the one out of a thousand who finally stops using, but that is definitely NOT the norm. These people usually remain on methadone forever. And the "jonesing" is just as bad w/out methadone as it is w/out heroin. No matter how much I loved my brother, I would not have let him dupe me into thinking that he was any different from any other addict. They lie and steal to get a few cents here and there, just to keep up their habit.
If/when this clinic comes to our city, we most definitely will see a rise in crime and I'm sure there will be ALOT of unnecessary police hours spent, on these disgusting slimeballs. So f**king what if the clinic closes at noon...what, you think these addicts are then going to hop back on the train to get back to their lovely homes and families? Yeah right! Many of these scumwads are homeless and their families no longer want anything to do with them. Some of them may park their asses here in Berwyn, simply because it's closer to the clinic. Others may come out here and befriend the Berwyn addicts and thus, spend more time with their newfound friends.
Do not let people deceive you. They'll feed you the lines "The face of the "user" has changed...", "Many users are just like you and me..." - BULLSHIT!!! Would you rob (or let your addict friends rob) your parents house to sell the TV etc, in order to get your fix? Would you give up your family and friends for heroin? That's bullshit. I didn't cause them to do drugs and they are not "just like you and me"!
I may complain about many things here in Berwyn, but this is the straw that just may break this camels back -
Here is an email that Michael O'Connor sent out this morning:
The city council led by Alderman Chapman, Skryd, Phelan and Lovero have approved the addition of a Metadone clinic to move into the Odeh Medical building across from the Salerno's restaurant on Grove Ave in the Depot Business District. (Methadone is a drug used to treat Heroin addicts)
I have called for an open Air Town meeting to present the facts to the community and encourage the residents to voice their opinion along with mine against allowing this clinic to open at this location. I will be inviting all of the aldermen, the owner of the building as well as the owner of the clinic to present their side of the story.
I agree that these types of clinics are necessary but not in the heart of our most important business district. The meeting will be held in the municipal parking lot on Grove Ave. in the 3300 block at 6 pm on Wednesday July 16th.
Any questions may be directed to my e-mail or to my office at city hall 788-2660 ext 231,
thank you.
You may want to forward that message to the Gang of Four.
"Normally, methadone doses must be taken every day under supervision at the clinic."
Well gee Liz, that is truly special. We will be subjected to God knows how many hundred
addicts EVERY FRIGGIN DAY
Here is #1's explanation
What's OC's explanation?
Here is King Bad's explanation of what happens outside a methadone clinic.
Looks like he will open an office at the train station if this clinic opens. Hell, he might
even buy one of the new condos to be close to work.
"More than half my customers are in and out of those clinics. This is a way for me to survive," said the dealer...
http://cannabisnews.com/news/13/thread13720.shtml
Quote from: Allen on July 12, 2008, 07:20:36 PM
I personally don't think that people are upset that it is in South Berwyn. I think what is upsetting people is that fact that it is going it a building that has four pediatricians on the second floor. At least, that is what has upset me the most. If we need a Methadone Clinic in Berwyn, put it in the Berwyn Health Department Building.
I was doing a bit more research into the Clinic and found a Medical Mal-Practice Lawsuit filed against the Clinic. 2005-L-000378.
No thanks. Have more than enough drug activity in that area as it is. Also - would be in
close-enough proximity to Hiawatha elementary school. Many Hiawatha students pass by that Health Dept. Building on their way to and from school - and they also use the T-alley behind it.
Close proximity? Hiawatha is kitty corner.
Here's a great location for a methadone clinic-anywhere north of Roosevelt, east of Lombard, south of 39th, or west of Harlem.
btw, I have no idea why people are teeing off on Ms Buonauro and Mr Sottile. They run a for profit business. They aren't breaking any laws. And just like any other business theylre looking to make a profit.
The people that should be teed up are the Gang of Four. They're the ones who have an obligation to the citizens of Berwyn. They're the ones you elected to represent you and look after your best interests.
Quote from: Liz Buonauro on July 13, 2008, 02:04:43 PM
Normally, methadone doses must be taken every day under supervision at the clinic. Federal and state regulations control who may have doses of methadone to take home – take-homes – and how many days at a time. Take-homes are an earned privilege.
Generally, take-homes are available only to persons comfortable on their methadone dose, avoiding all drugs of abuse, following clinic rules, cooperating with staff, and having a stable home life. Take-home dose privileges can be canceled if certain rules aren't followed requiring proper care of the medication and ongoing participation in treatment.
Comfortable on Methadone??? When one is on Methadone and they get the sudden want/need for more after the clinic is closed, you think they're going to wait 'til the clinic opens in the AM? No way...they'll just go score some H on the streets. As for a stable home life, that accounts for just about zero Heroin addicts. Most of them are either homeless or living in motel-type situations.
Heroin addicts are quite adept at the art of bullshitting. I personally know of a few who were able to "test negative" for other drugs, and qualify for "take-home" status, only to turn around and sell the Methadone on the streets...never a good idea to give an addict the freedom of choice, as they will always opt for the wrong path -
"btw, I have no idea why people are teeing off on Ms Buonauro and Mr Sottile. They run a for profit business. They aren't breaking any laws. And just like any other business theylre looking to make a profit."
Dipstick BTF comment of the century. Well silk, if you were in any loop of what goes on here in 60402
you would know that there will be over 200 families with their children at the next council meeting.
Ask them how they feel about what you just posted.
If you were in any loop whatsoever you pasty faced dipshit, you would know the former 3rd ward alderman for appx 30 years was named Toman, not Tobin.
What's so hard about comprehending where to approriately vent your frustration? The Buonauro clinic would have attempted to open up no matter what. Your immediate problem is that FOUR of your aldermen gave them carte blanche to do so ASAP!!!! Even your feeble mind could comprehend that. Now remind us once again shit for brains how #3, #8, or better yet OC dropped the ball on this one.
Brian, can you stop the name calling (pasty face dipshit)? Enough is enough.
Same old same old every night.
I have to agree with Pat.
Silk, these personal attacks of yours are getting a little much.
Take a chill pill and relax.
Time and Patsy,
If I wanted your opinionsm I'd ask for it. Its neither of your problems, so clam up.
Brian can go back and read who initited the exchange (dipstick). Either both of you are blind, or senility has set in. Or both.
Excuse me but I will voice my opinion when and where I see fit. You live in Muncie and act like you know what is best for all Berwyn just because one of your relatives has a stake in Connie's? Yeah, some of us got your number. Your venom for Bernie is uncalled for.
We are facing a serious turning point in our future. Lighten up with each other, ok.
Yes Mother Theresa
Quote from: SILK on July 13, 2008, 08:37:00 PM
If you were in any loop whatsoever you pasty faced dipshit, you would know the former 3rd ward alderman for appx 30 years was named Toman, not Tobin.
What's so hard about comprehending where to appropriately vent your frustration? The Buonauro clinic would have attempted to open up no matter what. Your immediate problem is that FOUR of your aldermen gave them carte blanche to do so ASAP!!!! Even your feeble mind could comprehend that. Now remind us once again shit for brains how #3, #8, or better yet OC dropped the ball on this one.
Pasty faced? Geez I have been trying to work on my tan. Perhaps you should too to alleviate that
nasty olive look. Is that from eating too much lamb? What exactly causes the dark circles under the eyes with you people? Negativity and general annoyance to the populace here?
Good Lord... Toman, Tobin...evil Bear misspelled a word... crucify him.
Fopas happen in life, if that is all you got on me, I am miles ahead of you in life.
SILK -
Why, you ask, are people disgusted with Liz and Sal over this issue? Real simple. Junkies are pathetic losers. Liz and Sal have worked the system to find a way to make money off of them. To hell with the consequences for the neighborhood, as long as they get paid. And, no, methadone is not a treatment. Liz and Sal are hooking addicts on a new drug. Hardly pillars of the community, more like vultures.
Somewhere in all of this situation it was mentioned that they would also be doing DUI
counseling. Anyone who does DUI "counseling" for the state is very politically connected.
Only those who pay to play get those "gimme" contracts.
Perhaps silk can tell all of you about that, and the vermin who feed off of
that food chain.
Counselor?
mominator,
I understnd that part. That being said, if the Gang of Four VOTES NAY, the Buonaro Clinic is either a) looking for a new home, or b) tied up in litigation for quite some time, without a Berwyn clinic to speak of in the interim.
Yay or Nay?
This will all be explained (lies) Wednesday, right? So maybe we could go back to being civil for now. To those of you who have contributed tangible info, and honest opinion, Thank You.
All I know about the owners is that they play boccie ball in their yard. true, Ive seen 'em.
Quote from: Bear on July 13, 2008, 09:37:05 PM
Somewhere in all of this situation it was mentioned that they would also be doing DUI
counseling. Anyone who does DUI "counseling" for the state is very politically connected.
Only those who pay to play get those "gimme" contracts.
Perhaps silk can tell all of you about that, and the vermin who feed off of
that food chain.
Counselor?
Good Lord, it is funny to see how blabbermouths can be so quickly silenced.
Now, now, Bear, there is no reason to instigate.
Let sleeping dogs lie.
;)
What exactly is it you want to know about dui related alcohol counseling Mr Bear?
#1. Alcohol assesments are mandated through COUNTY, not STATE, appointed agencies. In COOK County, that would be Central States Institute of Addiction. Do a little research, find out who they're "affiliated" with, and then come back and talk to me. Hint-they're YOUR people, not mine.
#2. DUI Risk education and related alcohol counseling can be done by a multitude of agencies throughout the county. No big connections needed. They're a dime a dozen.
And if you can make head or tails of any of the above, I'm the Pope of Rome.
Next time, make sure you come up with a better source than whoever is feeding you this bs.
Time,
I thought I told you once before that if I needed any more crap from you I'd squeeze your head.
Bu I forgot, you have my number. I'm actually a grad student at Ball State and pass out menus at Connies on the weekends. You've got my number allright-867-5309.
LOL!!!!
Only in Berwyn!
:-*
Quote from: SILK on July 13, 2008, 10:36:15 PM
What exactly is it you want to know about dui related alcohol counseling Mr Bear?
#1. Alcohol assesments are mandated through COUNTY, not STATE, appointed agencies. In COOK County, that would be Central States Institute of Addiction. Do a little research, find out who they're "affiliated" with, and then come back and talk to me. Hint-they're YOUR people, not mine.
#2. DUI Risk education and related alcohol counseling can be done by a multitude of agencies throughout the county. No big connections needed. They're a dime a dozen.
And if you can make head or tails of any of the above, I'm the Pope of Rome.
Next time, make sure you come up with a better source than whoever is feeding you this bs.
Who is that you write all those contribution checks to? The Pope does not need them,
he wears better shoes than you do. Besides, he sends all the Greeks to that "other" church.
LL
Your right. I didn't think about the fact that the BHD is so close to a school.
Brian: Patsy and Time are right. Enough already with the petty name calling and bullying. Tony needs a time out. He wears on everyones nerves. Everyone knows that what he enjoys doing, but enough already!
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 11, 2008, 10:58:23 PM
Enough with the name calling.
Next one goes on Summer Vacation.
Clear?
That means you Ralph and Alice.
That is also a well traveled area Monday thru Friday for school kids going to Heritage in the morning.
Quote from: Ted on July 13, 2008, 05:12:21 AM
Quote from: Shelley on July 12, 2008, 11:45:51 PM
Anyone? I had heard that there was a process for citizens to pursue ending a TIF district.
SHelley, the DD TIF district is up for renewal. It expires in the next few years. Renewal of the TIF district is contingent on approval from all affected school districts and park districts as well as the city of Berwyn. If people are interested in having the TIF district expire, they can protest and complain to the school districts and the south Berwyn park district.
I know DIstrict 201 had this on their agenda a few months ago, but I don't think any action was taken (unless it was taken at a meeting I did not attend).
Ted
Yes, but I'm wondering if there is a way for regular citizens (not the school boards or the parks) to organize and end a TIF, say with a petition or binding referendum?? I talked to someone who said there is a process, but I'm not sure I understood. LIke I said, TIF dollars are wasted in that area if a methadone clinic moves in. Maybe we should use the TIF dollars to pay the legal fees to fight this...that would be the best investment in the future of Berwyn at this moment, IMHO. A much better investment than new facades or awnings for mechanics! If the purpose of the TIF is to promote, revitalize, encourage new businesses in a retail district...all $$ spent up to date has been wasted if this clinic moves in. I don't think the heroin addicts are going to be buying antiques...or books...or "green" gifts...Also, any residents or potential residents who may have shopped in those places are checking the real estate ads in other Western Suburbs. George's will be hoppin' though since this council voted against limiting bar hours. How did that vote go?
5:00 am methadone dose...
6:00 am meet pals at George's...
8:15 catch my train back home, maybe say good morning to a few of those middle schoolers on their way to class.
End the TIF and put that $$ back in our schools, libraries, parks, etc. Any money we spend on litigation will be nothing compared to the loss of property values and the cost of police needed to deal with a methadone clinic, IMHO.
How about our elected officials start the process of pressuring state legislators to further regulate methadone clinics by introducing legislation that prevents clinics from operating in residential neighborhoods. I think these types of clinics belong in major medical complexes away from residences and shopping areas. They should be limited to industrial parks or medical campuses like UIC or Rush, for example. Are there any laws like that to regulate adult book stores or porn or strip clubs or bars. Aren't there some towns that have legislated limiting bars/alcohol. How does Oak Park get away with being a "dry" town? I'm sure I'm being naive and these are all bad ideas, but I do know that the TIF is clearly not going to be successful and I'd rather end that if this methadone clinic moves in. Anyway, I think we should vote no and risk the legislation even if it is just to buy some time to work on these other angles...or at least discourage other similar businesses from setting up shop here where we won't put up a fight.
Shelley,
The long and short of it is that you can't lump adult bookstores and methadone clinics together for zoning purposes since said clinics fall under the "medical" umbrella. Notice how the first thing Mr Sottile mentioned was that heroin addicts fall under the Americans with Disablities Act?
The rest of your post @lm in entire agreement with This is one fight Berwyn simply HAS TO engage in.
If a person is getting methadone treatment do they also harass middle schoolers? Does that go hand in hand?
That seems to be what I'm getting out of all of this intelligent dialogue.
Shelley,
There would definitely be an alternative to put an advisory referendum on the ballot about ending the DD TIF district. We know that drill well.
But I don't know if your mom's and dad's knees can take it :D ;D :D
The problem with the advisory referendum is that the city can ignore the referendum.
More research would be needed on a mandatory referendum. The state has something referred to as a "back-door" referendum that can be used to change laws but I don't know, though, that that would apply in the case of a TIF district.
Ted
Quote from: Allen on July 13, 2008, 11:06:23 PM
Brian: Patsy and Time are right. Enough already with the petty name calling and bullying. Tony needs a time out. He wears on everyones nerves. Everyone knows that what he enjoys doing, but enough already!
Tony?? Who is Tony?
frank,
let me ask you this- you would have NO PROBLEM sending your wife and pre school aged kids PAST the methadone clinic on their way to the pediatricians on the second floor?
Additionally, why do you simply assume a methadone clinic is necessary within Berwyn's borders?
Quote from: frank white on July 14, 2008, 06:32:19 AM
If a person is getting methadone treatment do they also harass middle schoolers? Does that go hand in hand?
That seems to be what I'm getting out of all of this intelligent dialogue.
I am still trying to get the logic here. We don't want people addicted to heroin, I think we can all agree on that, BUT we don't want Berwynites that are addicted to get treatment because we think they are going to harass kids. I still don't get how the two go together either.
I agree with Frank on this one. This is silly. If these people wanted to be on heroin, they'd stay on the junk. Sure there are a few that will abuse it and use it as an alternative to heroin, but I would guess most are using it to get off heroin. If they are getting off the drug, they probably want to clean up their lives, and where would hurting kids fall into this?
Quote from: Hogzilla on July 14, 2008, 09:27:39 AM
Quote from: frank white on July 14, 2008, 06:32:19 AM
If a person is getting methadone treatment do they also harass middle schoolers? Does that go hand in hand?
That seems to be what I'm getting out of all of this intelligent dialogue.
I am still trying to get the logic here. We don't want people addicted to heroin, I think we can all agree on that, BUT we don't want Berwynites that are addicted to get treatment because we think they are going to harass kids. I still don't get how the two go together either.
I agree with Frank on this one. This is silly. If these people wanted to be on heroin, they'd stay on the junk. Sure there are a few that will abuse it and use it as an alternative to heroin, but I would guess most are using it to get off heroin. If they are getting off the drug, they probably want to clean up their lives, and where would hurting kids fall into this?
Hogzilla,
I think some of the fears expressed here are not of the well-intentioned Berwynite who is getting methadone treatment to help get clean. I think it is a fear of the element that the clinic could attract. It is a fear of heroin dealers who might begin to cruise Grove avenue looking for people on the fence.
I would be interested in hearing an experienced law enforcement person give commentary on this. Will the Chief be at the meeting on Wednesday?
I'd be curious to know what percentage of the clinics clients is expecyed to be Berwynites. I suspect not many.
Hogzilla,
There are several flaws in your logic.
First, I highly doubt the clinics patients will be solely Berwynites.
Secondly, even if it was, wat you're saying is that the rest of Berwyn is somehow obligated to ensure their recovery?
Third, the building in question isn't really a medical building in the tradtional sense. Its an office building housing several pediatricians/doctors. If I were an accountant and needed to lease space in that building, I probably could. We're not talking McNeal or Rush here.
Quote from: Hogzilla on July 14, 2008, 09:27:39 AM
Quote from: frank white on July 14, 2008, 06:32:19 AM
If a person is getting methadone treatment do they also harass middle schoolers? Does that go hand in hand?
That seems to be what I'm getting out of all of this intelligent dialogue.
I am still trying to get the logic here. We don't want people addicted to heroin, I think we can all agree on that, BUT we don't want Berwynites that are addicted to get treatment because we think they are going to harass kids. I still don't get how the two go together either.
I agree with Frank on this one. This is silly. If these people wanted to be on heroin, they'd stay on the junk. Sure there are a few that will abuse it and use it as an alternative to heroin, but I would guess most are using it to get off heroin. If they are getting off the drug, they probably want to clean up their lives, and where would hurting kids fall into this?
Hog,
You ever had the pleasure of dealing on a personal level with these addicts? When they're on Methadone, the high is similar to that of Heroin...only difference is, it's legal. These people act differently from the way they did before they became addicted...stealing from their families (or anyone for that matter). Who's to say they wouldn't accost kids on the playground for their lunch money?
I think a better solution would be a live-in rehab center, situated within the confines of a hospital-like setting. Not saying I don't want junkies to get off the shit, I'm just not an advocate of Methadone, as I've not seen truly successful treatment through the use of Methdone.
Ted:
Sorry, my mistake. I meant Andy(Silk).
Quote from: Allen on July 14, 2008, 10:59:31 AM
Sorry, my mistake. I meant Andy(Silk).
Allen(Allen),
In that case you have to mention Bernie(Bear) as well if you're referring to the name calling. Aww hell, throw (Pat)Berwyn Patsy under the bus as well.
Bonster~
Get a life man!
I just think the major flaw is in thinking that we don't want junkies, but we don't want a place for recovery. It's naive to think they don't live among us. I seriously doubt we'll turn Grove into a red-light district because of a methadone clinic. What would be the outcome if we wanted a live in recovery center put in Berwyn? Probably the same I'm guessing.
And yes, I had a friend that was addicted and he gave it up cold turkey. Wasn't pretty. He did it though. He also didn't steal kids lunch money while recovering.
Some of the statements on here remind me of that old movie "Reefer Madness."
(http://dvdtalk.com/dvdsavant/images/2586arm.jpg)
http://www.tcm.com/mediaroom/index.jsp?cid=198814
I haven't read the whole thread, but this seems like one of those classic "not in my back yard" situations. Everybody recognizes the need for drug rehab clinics, toxic waste incinerators, prisons, etc., but nobody wants them in their hood. The needs of society usually end up trumping the needs of the dissenters.
Has anyone ever had any direct actual experience with one of these clinics? I'm just wondering if they are as problematic as everybody likes to assume?
C'mon Malina, Frankie didn't get any methadone, he went cold turkey.
Quote from: smitty on July 14, 2008, 11:11:25 AM
Bonster~
Get a life man!
smitty~
No, woman!
Chronology + facts = fair.
Quote from: Crunchie on July 14, 2008, 11:33:10 AM
C'mon Malina, Frankie didn't get any methadone, he went cold turkey.
Exactly.
Quote from: Crunchie on July 14, 2008, 11:33:10 AM
C'mon Malina, Frankie didn't get any methadone, he went cold turkey.
That's how a REAL man does it. ;)
Just like to know how, when, and where the buonauro clinic had demonstrated a Berwyn "need" for this type of service.
Quote from: Crunchie on July 14, 2008, 11:31:06 AM
I haven't read the whole thread, but this seems like one of those classic "not in my back yard" situations. Everybody recognizes the need for drug rehab clinics, toxic waste incinerators, prisons, etc., but nobody wants them in their hood. The needs of society usually end up trumping the needs of the dissenters.
Has anyone ever had any direct actual experience with one of these clinics? I'm just wondering if they are as problematic as everybody likes to assume?
That's exactly it. Like George Carlin's bit on turning golf courses into housing for the homeless. Nobody wants homeless people wandering in their alleys, but they don't want housing in their area to take them off the street either.
I, am to some extent playing devil's advocate in this. I am not 100% thrilled it's coming to my hood, but I can also see the other side of this. If we don't make facilities that aid in recovery available, the flip side of this is having junkies wandering around too.
What's worse? A majority of people that want a path to recovery and are getting it, or a population of junkies that have no accessible means to recovery? It is a tough one. I would lean toward wanting that path to recovery. Not allowing it is kind of like putting our hands over our eyes and saying the problem isn't there me thinks.
Quote from: SILK on July 14, 2008, 11:55:55 AM
Just like to know how, when, and where the buonauro clinic had demonstrated a Berwyn "need" for this type of service.
That is a very good question, bring it to the meeting.
Hogzilla,
The question was actually diecyed to you, as it seems you've drawn a conclusion such a facility is necessary and/or needed in Berwyn.
When people move to the suburbs, it's usually because they want a (perceived) safer place in which to raise their children. I know I didn't want my kids wandering the streets of Broadway and Belmont so I chose to live in the 'burbs. There are plenty of places where these clinics can go, without disrupting a neighborhood too much. Why can't they open shop in a commercial area, where there would be no draw for them to hang around after hours?
very well put.
Quote from: Hogzilla on July 14, 2008, 11:59:14 AM
Quote from: Crunchie on July 14, 2008, 11:31:06 AM
I haven't read the whole thread, but this seems like one of those classic "not in my back yard" situations. Everybody recognizes the need for drug rehab clinics, toxic waste incinerators, prisons, etc., but nobody wants them in their hood. The needs of society usually end up trumping the needs of the dissenters.
Has anyone ever had any direct actual experience with one of these clinics? I'm just wondering if they are as problematic as everybody likes to assume?
That's exactly it. Like George Carlin's bit on turning golf courses into housing for the homeless. Nobody wants homeless people wandering in their alleys, but they don't want housing in their area to take them off the street either.
I, am to some extent playing devil's advocate in this. I am not 100% thrilled it's coming to my hood, but I can also see the other side of this. If we don't make facilities that aid in recovery available, the flip side of this is having junkies wandering around too.
What's worse? A majority of people that want a path to recovery and are getting it, or a population of junkies that have no accessible means to recovery? It is a tough one. I would lean toward wanting that path to recovery. Not allowing it is kind of like putting our hands over our eyes and saying the problem isn't there me thinks.
I can see your point. Landfills are necessary, but I don't want Proksa or Janura to get sold as one. To me this issue is different.
I read into your post as though you are convinced that there are many junkies in Berwyn who need this treatment to get clean. And you believe that this is the best method to treat them?
I'm not convinced that methadone clinics are necessary at all anywhere, that there is a demand by well intentioned Berwynites for one, and that this location won't draw junkies and dealers who would not otherwise be there.
For those who want to believe that a methadone clinic offers a recovery program or a treatment for addicts, you might want to check out the following from NarcAnon. For those who don't want to read the whole thing, it boils down to the only success coming out of these clinics is the financial success for those running it.
http://www.addictionca.com/FAQ-methadone.htm
Quote from: SILK on July 14, 2008, 12:06:43 PM
Hogzilla,
The question was actually diecyed to you, as it seems you've drawn a conclusion such a facility is necessary and/or needed in Berwyn.
Me? Don't ask me, I'm just another wanker spouting off my opinion like the rest. I'm not saying I know it's needed, but that IS a good question for the clinic. Has a study been done to show there is a need? IF there is a need, then maybe it needs to be considered.
Quote from: 'Rita/aka Berwyn Scumbag Broad on July 14, 2008, 12:16:59 PM
.. I know I didn't want my kids wandering the streets of Broadway and Belmont so I chose to live in the 'burbs.
Actually, the streets around Broadway and Belmont are pretty pricey and have always been a nice area to live in, even 30 years ago. Nowadays it has lots of young couples with children. There is an elementary school on Broadway one block north of Belmont.
Now, Wilson and Broadway or Lawrence and Broadway is a whole 'nother matter.
Ted
In regards to treatment being available for local addicts, according to Methadone Treatment.Net (http://www.methadonetreatment.net/IL/Cicero.php?state=IL&city=Cicero) there are 2 clinics already operating in Cicero by Chicago Treatment & Counseling Centers (http://www.chicagotreatment.com/).
Admittedly, I suffer from NIMBY on this one. I know it's supposed to help people, but from the things I've read and a few people I've known, these places attract dealers who just wait for people who are "on the edge" who might be having a weak moment.
Well, I notice Liz Buonaura is logged on now. Liz, can you answer these specific questions about the planned clinic in Berwyn:
1. How many patients do you intend to serve?
2. Would they all be daily patients? What % of the patients from the Berwyn clinic would likely be daily?
3. Do you accept Medicaid? Major Insurance? What % of your patients are Medicaid? What % are private insurance?
4. Why does your clinic provide a private security guard?
5. Did you do any research regarding the need in Berwyn that brought you to the conclusion that there are Berwynites who are in need of methadone? Do you currently serve any Berwyn patients in your other clinics?
Others: I'm as concerned about middle schoolers headed to Heritage in the morning as the pediatrician patients, especially if the methadone clinic attracts dealers. At least the pediatrician patients are with their parents. Here are two studies regarding the criminal element associated with methadone users, though I am most interested in Liz's answers regarding the patients expected at the Berwyn clinic:
"Patterns of acquisitive crime during methadone maintenance treatment among patients eligible for heroin assisted treatment"
http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=18460730
In a Dutch population of problematic drug users eligible for and prior to commencing heroin assisted treatment, 70% reported criminal activities and 50% reported acquisitive crimes. Offending took place on 20.5 days per month with on average 3.1 offences a day. Acquisitive crime consisted mainly of shoplifting (mean 12.8 days, 2.2 times/day) and theft of bicycles (mean 5.8 days, 2.4 times/day)"
In England:
http://www.freedom.org.uk/mag/issuea18/page06.htm
"the sad truth, as studies already find, is that out of those on prescribed methadone, 80% also use street drugs on a weekly basis (mainly heroin), and 44% of those on prescribed methadone use heroin on a daily basis...they have no real choice but to continue to fund their habits through crime. It is therefore not surprising that official and other research sources report that between 30 and 50 percent of prescription methadone users still commit crimes."
Interesting stuff Shelley, thanks for posting.
I Googled - effect of a methadone clinic on a residential neighborhood. Some interesting reading there.
This kind of facility has been opposed in many communiites over the years. Some have specific legislation/ordinances regarding 'where' such a facility can operate (X number of feet from private residences, etc.)
Common concerns are increased drug dealing in area of such a facility, increases in loitering and fights.
Anyone know anyone in the Evanston area who can offer input regarding the effect on the neighborhood, or crime rate, of the area in which this clinic operates there - or who knows someone who can?
I tried posting to an Evanston forum to get input, but no posts yet offering that kind of info. Also emailed Evanston Chief of Police, hoping to get a lead on information about effect of the clinic - if any. No response yet.
I just did a Google street view of the Evanston facility. This facility is not located in a "nice" Evanston neighborhood. This portion of Howard is pretty bleak. Hey, at least the Google camera-car didn't catch any pushers standing out in front!
There are plenty of empty storefronts on Cermak in Cicero. Why not move in there? It would match the Evanston location's ambiance and the addicts would feel right at home.
Quote from: Roach on July 14, 2008, 02:09:00 PM
I just did a Google street view of the Evanston facility. This facility is not located in a "nice" Evanston neighborhood. This portion of Howard is pretty bleak. Hey, at least the Google camera-car didn't catch any pushers standing out in front!
There are plenty of empty storefronts on Cermak in Cicero. Why not move in there? It would match the Evanston location's ambiance and the addicts would feel right at home.
Yes, because North Berwyn has all the problems...
Speaking of ordinances LL, my understanding is that an ordinance stil has to be drafted and enacted by City Council for the conditional use. So it looks like Berwyn gets another bite at the apple. I hope some and/or all of the four yay aldermen reconsider.
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 14, 2008, 02:10:58 PM
Quote from: Roach on July 14, 2008, 02:09:00 PM
I just did a Google street view of the Evanston facility. This facility is not located in a "nice" Evanston neighborhood. This portion of Howard is pretty bleak. Hey, at least the Google camera-car didn't catch any pushers standing out in front!
There are plenty of empty storefronts on Cermak in Cicero. Why not move in there? It would match the Evanston location's ambiance and the addicts would feel right at home.
Yes, because North Berwyn has all the problems...
Huh? I thought I suggested the Town of Cicero. ??? I don't want the clinic anywhere in Berwyn.
Sorry, I read the Cermak part. And ignored Cicero :-(.
Quote from: Shelley on July 14, 2008, 01:43:33 PM
Well, I notice Liz Buonaura is logged on now. Liz, can you answer these specific questions about the planned clinic in Berwyn:
1. How many patients do you intend to serve?
2. Would they all be daily patients? What % of the patients from the Berwyn clinic would likely be daily?
3. Do you accept Medicaid? Major Insurance? What % of your patients are Medicaid? What % are private insurance?
4. Why does your clinic provide a private security guard?
5. Did you do any research regarding the need in Berwyn that brought you to the conclusion that there are Berwynites who are in need of methadone? Do you currently serve any Berwyn patients in your other clinics?
1. How many patients do you intend to serve?
5-100
2. Would they all be daily patients? What % of the patients from the Berwyn clinic would likely be daily?
No-10% daily
3. Do you accept Medicaid?
NO
Major Insurance?
Yes
What % of your patients are Medicaid?
N/A
What % are private insurance?
35%
4. Why does your clinic provide a private security guard?
Because methadone is the most controlled drug in the UNITED STATES. The security is there to protect the methadone.
5. Did you do any research regarding the need in Berwyn that brought you to the conclusion that there are Berwynites who are in need of methadone?
YES
Do you currently serve any Berwyn patients in your other clinics?
YES, at the one clinic I own in Evanston
From my understanding (and as both Chapman and Lovero put into words), the aldermen that voted for it did so because of the legalities of voting no. So what I would like to know is how many times Liz and Sal have forced this issue to court and then winning said lawsuit? I am under the impression that it was more than once, which is why the aldermen voted yes. If they voted no and then went to court, with the court eventually taking the clinic's side, then what is the point at voting no? It would end up with the same conclusion, but if the city was sued, we'd be out the money.
But agreeing to pay for Phelan's lawsuit...puts us in the money?
Consistency.
Attaboy Spartan.
Here is the pdf which contains the play by play legalities of the situation
Is it recovery, or just substitution (or augmentation)?
Brookfield, North Riverside men arrested with drug paraphernalia
December 31, 2007, 10:30 AM
An officer saw a grey Ford Focus avoid a line of stopped vehicles on Roosevelt Rd. by weaving around traffic and cutting through the Blockbuster video store parking lot at East and Roosevelt. The driver appeared fidgety and nervous, prompting a call for backup officers. When asked whether he had been drinking or using drugs, driver David S. Zadwornyj, 27, of Brookfield, stated he did some drugs, and a spoon used in the process was under his seat. Passenger Frank L. Minniti, 28, of North Riverside, told police he had a syringe in his sock; he was also in possession of a spoon that showed burn marks. A search of the Ford revealed a syringe, rolled-up tinfoil, a spoon with burns and drug residue, and several clear plastic baggies under the front seat. The console contained three rolled tinfoils with possible drug residue. After being read his rights, Minnitti stated he called Zadwornyj and asked to purchase heroin. Minnitti said Zadwornyj picked him up at North Riverside mall, then drove to 16th and Harlem. There, Minnitti said, the driver handed him a syringe and told him he was fresh out of heroin, but intended to go to a clinic to get some methadone. Minnitti said he still wanted heroin, but Zadwornyj told him they would get methodone first. Zadwornyj told police he had a $20 per day heroin habit since age 16, and had purchase heroin in the city the previous night. Zadwornyj was charged with possession of a syringe, possession of drug paraphernalia, improper lane use, and avoiding a traffic control device. Minnitti was charged with possession of a syringe and possession of drug paraphernalia.
http://www.berwynpoliceblotter.com/index.php/site/comments/brookfield_north_riverside_men_arrested_with_drug_paraphernalia/
Addict son threatens mom, neighbor
August 21, 2007, 5:08 PM
A woman in the 6600 block of 24th called to say her 29-year-old son was out of control. Police met with the mom and a 53-year-old woman neighbor. The mom said she and her son had been arguing since the previous day. Today, when the neighbor came over, the son yelled at her to "get out!" Mom told him to leave instead, but he grew violent, knocking a bowl of food to the floor and saying "if you weren't my mom, I'd kill you". In fear, the women called police. At this the son told his mom that if she called police he would break all the TVs in the house, and told the neighbor, "if they take me to jail, they will find you on the side of the road dead". Mom told police the son is a recovering heroin junkie currently using methadone. The son was charged with domestic assault, domestic battery and simple assault.
http://www.berwynpoliceblotter.com/index.php/site/comments/addict_son_threatens_mom_neighbor/
I think what cozynite's asking and I agree with is if there's no way out (lose-lose proposition) ...
We don't know exactly who (counsel) Nona talked to and exactly what the Q&A was, so we're left to trust her judgement on this.
I disagree that both Chapman and Lovero put that into words though. :666:
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 14, 2008, 02:52:32 PM
But agreeing to pay for Phelan's lawsuit...puts us in the money?
Consistency.
But maybe they have a better chance of winning that one? If it's lose-lose, I'd rather not have the city waste money on a lawsuit that they won't win.
Quote from: cozynite on July 14, 2008, 03:12:58 PM
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 14, 2008, 02:52:32 PM
But agreeing to pay for Phelan's lawsuit...puts us in the money?
Consistency.
But maybe they have a better chance of winning that one? If it's lose-lose, I'd rather not have the city waste money on a lawsuit that they won't win.
Huh?
So we pay for Phelan's defense, city writes check to Phelan's attorney, Phelan walks away smiling that he won...Berwyn taxpayers feel better because the alderman is happy and the city has less money?
Versus trying to keep a methadone clinic out of town?
Is Nona friends with the owner of this clinic who happens to live in Nona's ward ?
I heard they are friends.
Does campaign money play into this equation at all since this is a for profit clinic and the owners will make a lot of money ?
Also who made Nona the negotiator for the city of whether Meth clinics move into the Depo Distric t?
Finally, do you think Riverside would roll over and play dead if a Methadone clinic moved in therer ?
Also there is a huge black market for Methadone and that black market is coming to Berwyn folks.
Great job aldermen that voted for this. You really all should be recalled from office.
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 14, 2008, 03:29:10 PM
Versus trying to keep a methadone clinic out of town?
But that's the point I'm trying to make. Doesn't it seem almost pointless to file yet another lawsuit against a clinic that has won every suit before against other cities that have tried to keep them out?
Look, I agree with not wanting the clinic in Berwyn. I think it's a horrible idea. But if it is a lose-lose situation, then I understand as to why those aldermen voted yes. It was a losing battle to begin with.
There are fights you have to fight, even if chances are you're going to lose. This is ome of them. If the Gang of Four were so concerned about taxpayers dollars, they would all return their health insurance benny, no?
The Buaonaro clinic hasonly one other location, so the most lawsuits they could have been a party to is .... ONE. Now if you're talking about other methadone clinics which have prevailed throughout the state and country, well, the fact that so many other municipalities have been willing to put up a legal fight (albeit a losing one) tells you something, doesn't it?
The big issue, is that if it becomes a legal battle, the money is going to HAVE to come from SOMEWHERE.
WHERE
As is already pointed out, no one wants to cut jobs/salaries, raise fees OR take cuts on benefits. So is Crystal Meth, the magic mushroom fairy, going to come floating down and drop a boatload of cash in our laps for this fight? I'm not saying I'm for one of these places in Berwyn, either. I certainly don't need something ELSE driving down my property values on top of the gangbangers and that ghetto-fabulous Cermak Plaza.
But what's it saying when we've got a group of leaders who want to spend, spend, spend, regardless of whether there's anything coming in or not? It just smacks of yet another economic noose around Berwyn's neck.
Quote from: tgoddess on July 14, 2008, 03:59:54 PM
The big issue, is that if it becomes a legal battle, the money is going to HAVE to come from SOMEWHERE.
WHERE
But what's it saying when we've got a group of leaders who want to spend, spend, spend, regardless of whether there's anything coming in or not?
Well, you don't know, that's the supposed problem, right?
At this point the trust is in whomever (Counsel) Nona spoke with and what they gave her.
Quote from: Vic0218 on July 12, 2008, 12:51:55 PM
My logic here is that our aldermen are stepping back instead of stepping up - hey, there is a threat of a lawsuit (throw hands up here). Let's not make any attempt to prevent this. We may be sued.
Isn't that why the city has a legal counsel and business insurance? I wonder if legal counsel offered an opinion here prior to the vote.
Bon, honestly, I think we should fight this. That's my take.
But regardless of the outcome, a legal battle is going to cost this city MORE money and I'm just curious about what the plan is to get the cash for this.
Frankly, I think it might be worth some time trying to figure out what to do to 1) prevent anymore kinds of these "businesses" from popping up so close to schools/residential areas in town and 2) maybe drafting some ordinances to make it a lot more miserable for the lowlifes who think they might just stick around (bump up the loitering fines to something pretty painful)...more visible police presence at least during the walking to/from school hours...who knows. I'd hate to think there aren't people SMARTER than I am around here (or I'd probably move back to Oak Lawn TONIGHT) who may have some PRO-active ideas, instead of RE-active ones.
I agree. If it's a lose-lose proposition as Nona seems to believe at this point, why bother fighting.
I think the surge here is for verification of such.
ps. u might as well move tonight LOL!
pps. but don't.
I bumped into someone at the bank today and we were discussing this matter. They brought up a very good point. MacNeal already offers a drug treatment program.
So does the Fillmore center.
Quote from: dukesdad on July 14, 2008, 04:55:06 PM
So does the Fillmore center.
Read Reply #15 in this thread.
All -
I encourage everyone to show up Wednesday....no, I'm not personally excited about the open forum, the time or location. I can't imagine it will be an organized or productive event. And it will be hot.
But, I am hearing that many people representing different factions will be showing up - the clinic owners, the alderman, the police chief, doctors from the existing business in the building, other business owners in the area, and plain old citizens like myself.
For me their are two major concerns that a large gathering could help address - the possibility of a methadone clinic opening up (NIMBY!) and the facts that there was very, very little disclosure to the people who will be impacted by this decision. True or not, the more people I've talked to, the more I feel that this item was swept under the rug. Other businesses in the bldg and the area did not know this was going on, few residents knew about it , personnel at MacNeal had no clue...it goes on and on. No one who would feel strongly about would have caught on unless a few folks hadn't posted the details of the 7/8 COW on BTD.
I'm furious that the 'avoiding lawsuit' excuse is the only reason being throw about. History shows this has not been a concern of our council in the past. I do consider 'a lawsuit' to be a valid incentive to influence a vote, but I'd be more receptive there was some voting pattern that supported this. I think I'm more upset that the aldermen didn't start waving the red flag early on in this process (two years ago?).
The presence of many people will be a very visible reminder to the council that the citizens and business owners of Berwyn care about their city and its future. And that it is a voting year, and the council is there to do what is best for Berwyn. That's why I'm going to be there. When it's over I'm heading to the Joyce for a cold beer and maybe vent a little more.
Vic, I can't be a NIMBY because it's not in my backyard. I'm a NOTE (Not Over There Either). I'm not sure it couldn't exist here in Berwyn, I'd just question the proposed location. And I don't want it forced down our throats. These owners aren't Mother Theresa. It's about money. Lots of money.
Quote from: Liz Buonauro on July 14, 2008, 02:42:57 PM
3. Do you accept Medicaid? NO
Major Insurance? Yes
What % of your patients are Medicaid? N/A
What % are private insurance? 35%
If you do not accept Medicaid and only 35% is paid for by private insurance, then what is the other 65% paid by? Cash or credit card?
I guess this is what irritates the living %&^$# out of me. I live in this city, pay taxes in this city and try my hardest to spend my money in this city. I have a right to know when a methadone clinic is thinking of opening up in my backyard, regardless if I agree or disagree. It has come to my attention that other people in the community were privy to this info, including other business owners in the DD, and they saw it as their right to protect the rest of us by keeping this info to themselves. That's Bull!!!!
In all honesty I knew this issue had come up to Council in April I believe, and then all of a sudden last week it's up again. And because the Gang Of 4 in their infinite wisdom decided that it was better to approve than fight we should understand and accept. Well screw you!!! Next time ask for my opinion, PERIOD.
I tell you this,,,,, I wouldn't vote for Skyrd in the next election if she were the only one running. I would rather do a write-in of Scooby Doo!!!!! In my opinion this is all because these knuckleheads are so busy trying to get #7 elected that they failed miserably in their job.
Quote from: buzz on July 14, 2008, 06:29:09 PM
Vic, I can't be a NIMBY because it's not in my backyard. I'm a NOTE (Not Over There Either). I'm not sure it couldn't exist here in Berwyn, I'd just question the proposed location.
What better location is there in Berwyn? Train access, buses, medical offices, great drinking establishments, parking garage, err, uhh...
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 03:01:01 PM
Here is the pdf which contains the play by play legalities of the situation
Bear,
Where did you get this pdf from?? Item J-1 does not match what is in the "full packet" for J-1 on the Berwyn website? Item J-1 on the Berwyn website does NOT have the words "July 8th City Council Meeting" written across the top.
Also, items H-1 (the section for the zoning board of appeals item) has nothing in it in the full packet.
So, I was curious why you have something for Item J-1 that does not match the "full packet" material on the city's website and why you have a copy of item H-1 when the city website does not have anything under Item H??
Thanks
Ted
Thor...All this info was out there. Read your full-packets and pay attention
EVERYTHING is online.
Quote from: Kick Out The Jams on July 14, 2008, 03:33:32 PM
Does campaign money play into this equation at all since this is a for profit clinic and the owners will make a lot of money ?
I looked on the Illinois Board of Elections website and neither Mr. Sottile nor Ms. Buonauro are listed in the electronic documents as having made campaign contributions to anyone.
If D2 are filed on paper (rather than electronically) then contributors on the Board of Elections website do not show up.
But, as I said, no contributions show up for them on the website
Ted
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 06:56:43 PM
Thor...All this info was out there. Read your full-packets and pay attention
EVERYTHING is online.
Bear, what you posted does NOT match what is in the full packet (at least the full packet that is out there currently.)
The full packet does NOT have that writing across the top on item J-1 and there is nothing in Section H so there is no item H-1 in the full packet (at least, I can't find it).
Ted
This is my right to speak as of course it is just my opinion. I ask Bonster and Silk to please refrain
from attacking back.
Maybe we all should not be so hard on "The Fabulous Four", as some call them on this board.
I know they did what they thought would save the city money and new a law suit in favor of
denying the right of a business to open would be useless.
All 4 live in Berwyn, have homes and families, so in my heart I can't believe in their hearts they thought any different then
the rest of us who so strongly oppose this clinic.
Maybe this will be a learning experience that just had to happen in order to make the CC and the Mayor fully
understand that the voters in Berwyn have changed, and unlike before will not let much get past them.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 14, 2008, 07:05:36 PM
Maybe this will be a learning experience that just had to happen in order to make the CC and the Mayor fully
understand that the voters in Berwyn have changed, and unlike before will not let much get past them.
I agree. Let this be a learning experience for the Berwyn Democrats that Berwyn doesn't need their bullshit anymore.
Quote from: Ted on July 14, 2008, 06:58:36 PM
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 06:56:43 PM
Thor...All this info was out there. Read your full-packets and pay attention
EVERYTHING is online.
Bear, what you posted does NOT match what is in the full packet (at least the full packet that is out there currently.)
The full packet does NOT have that writing across the top on item J-1 and there is nothing in Section H so there is no item H-1 in the full packet (at least, I can't find it).
Ted
Ted, that comes from several packets, a compendium of the saga. Note the March 26th date on H-1, that is from 4-08 council
packet. Digging thru the bowels of full-packets is tedious
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 07:18:22 PM
Ted, that comes from several packets, a compendium of the saga. Note the March 26th date on H-1, that is from 4-08 council
packet. Digging thru the bowels of full-packets is tedious
OK - I didn't catch the fact that item H-1 was from March 26.
But, what about item J-1? That is from the 7/8 city council meeting. Item J-1 does NOT have "July 8th City Council Meeting" written across the top. It could not have come from the online version of the full packet?
Ted
Can someone please explain to me how this is a lesson to THE MAYOR? He's steadfastly OPPOSED to the clinic. He even organized the aforementioned forum.
Its posts like the ones above that makes people scratch their heads and say wtf? R maybe question what type of spirits have been imbibed. What exactly is the mayor at fault for here? How has HE tried to sneak one past the Berwyn citizenry in this instance?
Maybe people should be more worried about taking the Gang of Four to task for this instead of coming up with bs excuses, searching for justifications, and/or looking to shift the blame.
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 07:18:22 PM
Quote from: Ted on July 14, 2008, 06:58:36 PM
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 06:56:43 PM
Thor...All this info was out there. Read your full-packets and pay attention
EVERYTHING is online.
Bear, what you posted does NOT match what is in the full packet (at least the full packet that is out there currently.)
The full packet does NOT have that writing across the top on item J-1 and there is nothing in Section H so there is no item H-1 in the full packet (at least, I can't find it).
Ted
Ted, that comes from several packets, a compendium of the saga. Note the March 26th date on H-1, that is from 4-08 council
packet. Digging thru the bowels of full-packets is tedious
Bear- Not everyone has the time to dig thru the bowels of full-packets to find out a methedone clinic is being opened up in their backyard because even as you stated it is tedious at best. That is what I expect my local neighborhood official that came knocking at my door to do. And I expect that local neighborhood official that came knocking at my door to find time to knock again or e-mail me or find a way to let me know that something more important than an Alderman is snooping through the city dog license records.
But I do find it amusing the way you try to tie this to the Mayor who incidentally was the only other person who voiced an opposition to this mess!
Quote from: SILK on July 14, 2008, 08:03:07 PM
Can someone please explain to me how this is a lesson to THE MAYOR? He's steadfastly OPPOSED to the clinic. He even organized the aforementioned forum.
Its posts like the ones above that makes people scratch their heads and say wtf? R maybe question what type of spirits have been imbibed. What exactly is the mayor at fault for here? How has HE tried to sneak one past the Berwyn citizenry in this instance?
Maybe people should be more worried about taking the Gang of Four to task for this instead of coming up with bs excuses, searching for justifications, and/or looking to shift the blame.
Thank you Silk!!! some of these people have STILL not figured out that game playing and political ploys are what got us to this point. Let keep the fact straight.
THE MAYOR AND ALDERMAN MARK WEINER VOICED OPPOSITION TO THE METHADONE CLINIC, THE GANG OF 4 SAID IT WAS OK.
Joel Erickson voted nay as well.
He was drunk a thought they were asking him if he needed another round.
Maybe, but it still counts as a nay!
Y'know, these days I don't follow local as much as I do national politics...but from what I read here, it seems that OC/#8/Weiner mostly have the good of the city in mind, while the "gang of four", have what? Status quo? reversion to the good 'ol days?...in mind.
The Gang of Four IS, for the most part, the good ole days.
It would be one thing if the Gang of Four voted with the taxpayers pockets sincerely first and foremost in their minds. Their track record, however (health insurance, Phelans legal costs) indicates the EXACT OPPOSITE.
Quote from: Ted on July 14, 2008, 07:27:48 PM
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 07:18:22 PM
Ted, that comes from several packets, a compendium of the saga. Note the March 26th date on H-1, that is from 4-08 council
packet. Digging thru the bowels of full-packets is tedious
OK - I didn't catch the fact that item H-1 was from March 26.
But, what about item J-1? That is from the 7/8 city council meeting. Item J-1 does NOT have "July 8th City Council Meeting" written across the top. It could not have come from the online version of the full packet?
Ted
Ted, I am not going to go dig again to prove a point, all that stuff came from previous and some current packets, as was proven with your H-1 question.
There is no "Beargate" here, I don't stoop to that level. All the info is on the city website, that is where it came from. I was simply trying to show everyone the facts and timeline of the situation as recorded
by the city.
That's right.
This is something that flew under the radar due to lack of citizen participation at city council (and the fact that no one reads the Gazette other than when using it to sop up fast food grease).
Now it appears it's too late.
Quote from: Bear on July 11, 2008, 10:35:27 PM
Voter/citizen participation attention deficit comes to mind here.
Quote from: Ted on July 14, 2008, 12:53:58 PM
Quote from: 'Rita/aka Berwyn Scumbag Broad on July 14, 2008, 12:16:59 PM
.. I know I didn't want my kids wandering the streets of Broadway and Belmont so I chose to live in the 'burbs.
Actually, the streets around Broadway and Belmont are pretty pricey and have always been a nice area to live in, even 30 years ago. Nowadays it has lots of young couples with children. There is an elementary school on Broadway one block north of Belmont.
Now, Wilson and Broadway or Lawrence and Broadway is a whole 'nother matter.
Ted
Ted,
Believe me, I know how pricey that area was/is...I lived a block down from Broadway, on LakeShore Dr for many yrs. But when it came time to move out on my own (w/hubby and kids) we chose the suburbs, in part because we did not wish to
rent in the city but rather, to
own in the 'burbs. The Jane Addams Hull House was also not a big draw for me in that area. It's nice that the world has places such as that, but I do not choose to live smack dab in front of it.
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 09:16:50 PM
Ted, I am not going to go dig again to prove a point, all that stuff came from previous and some current packets, as was proven with your H-1 question.
There is no "Beargate" here, I don't stoop to that level. All the info is on the city website, that is where it came from. I was simply trying to show everyone the facts and timeline of the situation as recorded
by the city.
No need for you to prove it. I will prove it. Attached are the two copies of the J-1 item. The first is what was in the full packet on the Berwyn website. The second is what you posted Bear. Please note yours has the writing "July 8th City Council Meeting" across the top while the one on the city website does not.
There is no way that the Item J-1 that you posted came from the city website. Maybe a friend of yours in city hall sent it to you. ;)
Your friend.
Ted
Nah Ted, that would NEVER HAPPEN!
LOL!!!
Quote from: Boris on July 14, 2008, 08:54:16 PM
Y'know, these days I don't follow local as much as I do national politics...but from what I read here, it seems that OC/#8/Weiner mostly have the good of the city in mind, while the "gang of four", have what? Status quo? reversion to the good 'ol days?...in mind.
It still baffles me how everyone makes OC out to be this white knight who is carrying this city on his shoulders and crusading for righteousness --- please, look around people. OC could care less if a clinic goes in the DD. He was after all, the one trying to put the Food 4 Less in the plaza without regard to what the ward's residents wanted (he just wanted the tax revenue). The clinic is a campaign issue for OC and he is spinning it into a black and white issue when there are of course shades of grey. The council members voting against the issue are looking to avoid another lawsuit against the city (I believe the city has been successfully sued in the past for preventing other businesses from going into specific spaces) - do you really think they want the clinic there either? I don't think anyone but the owner of the clinic
wants the clinic here. They (the Gang of Four) are trying to avoid future lawsuits. If the taxpayers want to gamble and possibly foot the bill (as Shelly suggested), then so be it. If the residents don't want it, then it shouldn' t be in there. However the good vs. evil illusion was created by the Three Am"egos" and they are using it for OC's political advantage.
OC care about the city? He cares more about jobs for his patronage hires (the same kind he promised to clean up from the old administration). At least he is not without a heart - I heard he's weeping at night over the poor librarians he laid off.
Weiner is threatening to name names on his blog as if he frickin Joseph McCarthy.
#8... well, I can't argue with you here. If there was a Mount Rushmore in Berwyn, his head would certainly be the first one chiseled on there (hey, maybe we can convince the plaza to hold off on the Walgreen's so we can put that up where the Spindle used to be).
Quote from: SILK on July 14, 2008, 09:00:06 PM
The Gang of Four IS, for the most part, the good ole days.
It would be one thing if the Gang of Four voted with the taxpayers pockets sincerely first and foremost in their minds. Their track record, however (health insurance, Phelans legal costs) indicates the EXACT OPPOSITE.
NOBODY wants to give up a job perk silk...Would you? OC has pissed 100x of that dollar amount
on patronage hires and legal fees to defend his ineptness. He has screwed the taxpayer since day one.
As far as the Phelan deal goes, it was not a vote to protect #6, it was a vote to protect alderman
from OC who would gladly use taxpayer funds to sue any alderman for any frivolous reason who opposes
him in the upcoming election.
Tell us what you would have done if you were a player in this carnival known as Berwyn politics.
The only Greek I know in state politics is not destined for sainthood, his future includes
indictments with blago.
Maybe I should check your D-2's counselor....OPA!
Hey Bennifer, if the Gang of Four voted yay, OC would have no crusade, yes or no?
If the Gang of Four were actualy interested in saving the city taxpayers $$$$, then they would quit filling their own with the health insurance benny. Yes or No?
As for Weiner, he's one step ahead of you. ALWAYS But then again, that shouldn't be hard to do with respect to someone who compares a Food 4 Less with a methadone clinic.
Keep talking.
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 09:45:50 PM
OC has pissed 100x of that dollar amount on patronage hires and legal fees to defend his ineptness.
LOL. OK. Like when you claimed 98K and it turned about to be about 16?
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 09:45:50 PM
As far as the Phelan deal goes, it was not a vote to protect #6, it was a vote to protect alderman
from OC who would gladly use taxpayer funds to sue any alderman for any frivolous reason who opposes
him in the upcoming election.
LOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!
Now there's some DCoB Spin, folks!
The real reason they voted it it was to protect themselves from themselves.
It came from the packets as proven Ted, I don't know what else to tell you. And
what does that date or inscrption have to do with anything?
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 09:54:05 PM
It came from the packets as proven Ted, I don't know what else to tell you. And
what does that date or inscrption have to do with anything?
If the writing wasn't on the copy from the packet, it is logical to conclude what you posted was not from the packet and that someone sent you a different copy.
QuoteAs far as the Phelan deal goes, it was not a vote to protect #6, it was a vote to protect alderman
from OC who would gladly use taxpayer funds to sue any alderman for any frivolous reason who opposes
him in the upcoming election.
That is an interesting spin. So council should agree to defend anyone from any lawsuit which they think might come from the mayor? I'm glad logic prevails.
Bernie Bernie Bernie,
Since when did Berwyn alderman become a ful time job?
But even if it were, if saving taxpayers dollars is the rationale behind their votes, then their stance on the halth insurance is HYPOCRITICAL. Didn't realize Berwyn alderman became an entitlement, like eberything else in town.
as far as what I would have done, well.......
I wouldn't be stupid enough to say anything actionable of record, thereby opening myself up to a lawsuit. That's for starters (btw, OC didn't sue Phelan).
Additionally, I would actually consider what my constituents want-in this case, a big fat NO to the meyhadne clinic, instead of engaging in obstructionist and sophomoric political opposition/retribution, especially when it concerns a matter like this encompassing the general welfare of the community.
Lastly, I'd make sure my email communications were secure.
Brian, you must not be privy to OC's vindictive nature.
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 09:54:05 PM
It came from the packets as proven Ted, I don't know what else to tell you. And
what does that date or inscrption have to do with anything?
AH, c'mon Bernie. You known that what you posted did not come from the city website. What you posted has written across the top "July 8th City Council Meeting". The version on the city website does NOT have that written across the top.
But that's fine. I still think you're an OK guy.
Ted
Brian,
Its ALL about spin. took bernie a few hours, but that's how long it takes the old guard email hotline to conjur up some spin!
Quote from: Bear on July 14, 2008, 10:01:00 PM
Brian, you must not be privy to OC's vindictive nature.
So that is justification to put the taxpayers on the hook for ANY lawsuit against an alderman? The only people I see that policy benefiting is the aldermen. Does that surprise me? nope.
People I can't believe the small mindedness on this board. Let's tar and feather those that feel they did the right thing. How dare anyone one of you condemn the people who work the hardest for this city. Nobody wants a meth clinic not even #s 1, 4, 6, & 8 believe that. If someone feels slighted because they weren't informed about what was going on GET OFF YOUR ASSES and go to a city council meeting and find out. It is open to the public. For those that endearingly coined the name 'Gang of Four' I'm totally FedUp with you. You put in the time they do for minimum wage. What they did they did because it was the right thing to do given the financial state of our city. Doesn't anyone wonder how this got back to council with 2 no votes not in attendance? Can't veto if it's not a tie. So let's have an open air meeting!!!
Political Grandstanding at its best. Kudos to Mr. Mayor. If you really want to know how this guy operates Google Greg Galloway (OC's campaign mgr).
Now let me tell you what I'm FedUp with.
I'm FedUp with:
• People on this board who don't live in this community thinking we want to hear what they have to say GO AWAY
• City officials owning Section 8 housing
• People on this board who bitch about everything but do nothing about anything
• Being lied to by this administration
• Seeing people lose their jobs in the midst of patronage hiring
• With still seeing storm debris
• With drunks on this board calling other people drunks
• With gang banger bars
Get real people nobody wants meth clinic. IMHO this will not happen. But collect yourselves and realize our council members yay and nay voters only did what they thought was right. Do not condemn so easily
P.S. I'm fed up with Cub fans
Quote from: FedUp on July 14, 2008, 10:06:14 PM
... Doesn't anyone wonder how this got back to council with 2 no votes not in attendance? Can't veto if it's not a tie...
Are you suggesting that Jim Ramos and Tom Day purposely missed the city council meeting so that O'Connor could veto this item? That's a stretch.
Quote from: FedUp on July 14, 2008, 10:06:14 PM
... Nobody wants a meth clinic not even #s 1, 4, 6, & 8 believe that.
Uhmm... I think you mean #s 1,4, 6, & 7 (probably a Freudian slip ::) )
Quote from: FedUp on July 14, 2008, 10:06:14 PM
P.S. I'm fed up with Cub fans
Ah, something you, me and Bear can agree on... :D ;D :D
Quote from: FedUp on July 14, 2008, 10:06:14 PM
If you really want to know how this guy operates Google Greg Galloway (OC's campaign mgr).
If you really want to know how Lovero operates look up his campaign mgr.
OLD SCHOOL.
Fed Up with Cubs fans?
Geez Fed Up, I could have sworn you were a Lovero supporter.
Hop over to bernies, pound a few cold brewskis, and come back in the morning. You'l feel much better. It always works for Bear.
Why was no one worried about a lawsuit from the woman who was not allowed to open a scrapbook store on Cermak? I personally dont buy that reasoning for voting for the clinic.
Quote from: FedUp on July 14, 2008, 10:06:14 PM
• People on this board who don’t live in this community thinking we want to hear what they have to say GO AWAY
Don't worry. Felix Greco quit posting here weeks ago.
I urge all of you responding to the posts on this site to examine the facts. Methadone treats addictions. It does not cure an addiction, but it DOES return people to productive citizens who are able to work and return to loving families. Methadone can take an addict off of the street and deter crime by offering a LEGAL substitute for opiate addiction. The people who have posted about unsavory characters coming into Berwyn have not looked closely at their own community. As a nurse practitioner I have cared for MANY patients who have addictions to vicodin, cocaine, heroin, amphetamines, etc. These people are loosing their livliehood, their loved ones, and their children to their illegal drug dependency. You don't know about these people because it is not "acceptable" conversation. I assure you that people from your community- as well as mine - have illegal addictions. Methadone offers people with opiate addiction hope for normalization of their life.
Children are not going to be at risk from "junkies" hanging out in the proposed clinic neighborhood any more than their risk from exposure related to the media and their experiences growing up in a Chicago suburb. Addictions touch the lives of millions. Is it wrong to offer hope and a chance to function productively to someone who is struggling?
As someone has noted - the clinic does not accept medicaid. The patients in this proposed clinic are working, have insurance, have responsibility, and are accountable. They do not get their methadone if they do not meet their responsibilities. I urge caution when comparing this clinic to those who DO accept medicaid and serve a primarily indigent population. We need treatment clinics in ALL areas, to serve ALL persons. I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the professionalism of the clinic staff and their clients when this new clinic opens. Please be open to a different point of view. The old stereotypes about heroin addicts are changing. Your accountant may be on methadone or your real estate agent may be on methadone - the fact is you would never know. You may have not known that six months ago they were sleeping in the street waiting for another fix while their children went hungry. Methadone does work - not for everyone, but it is worth trying, along with counseling and other addiction treatment methodologies. The BBC will offer these treatment methodologies with methadone. If one life is saved, one family is reunited - it will all be worth it.
APN,
I don't think anyone is arguing against the need to treat people with heroin addiction. The argument is about where such a clinic should be located.
Ted
I just think that there has to be a more sensible location for this clinic.
December 31, 2007, 10:30 AM
An officer saw a grey Ford Focus avoid a line of stopped vehicles on Roosevelt Rd. by weaving around traffic and cutting through the Blockbuster video store parking lot at East and Roosevelt. The driver appeared fidgety and nervous, prompting a call for backup officers. When asked whether he had been drinking or using drugs, driver David S. Zadwornyj, 27, of Brookfield, stated he did some drugs, and a spoon used in the process was under his seat. Passenger Frank L. Minniti, 28, of North Riverside, told police he had a syringe in his sock; he was also in possession of a spoon that showed burn marks. A search of the Ford revealed a syringe, rolled-up tinfoil, a spoon with burns and drug residue, and several clear plastic baggies under the front seat. The console contained three rolled tinfoils with possible drug residue. After being read his rights, Minnitti stated he called Zadwornyj and asked to purchase heroin. Minnitti said Zadwornyj picked him up at North Riverside mall, then drove to 16th and Harlem. There, Minnitti said, the driver handed him a syringe and told him he was fresh out of heroin, but intended to go to a clinic to get some methadone. Minnitti said he still wanted heroin, but Zadwornyj told him they would get methodone first. Zadwornyj told police he had a $20 per day heroin habit since age 16, and had purchase heroin in the city the previous night. Zadwornyj was charged with possession of a syringe, possession of drug paraphernalia, improper lane use, and avoiding a traffic control device. Minnitti was charged with possession of a syringe and possession of drug paraphernalia.
August 21, 2007, 5:08 PM
A woman in the 6600 block of 24th called to say her 29-year-old son was out of control. Police met with the mom and a 53-year-old woman neighbor. The mom said she and her son had been arguing since the previous day. Today, when the neighbor came over, the son yelled at her to "get out!" Mom told him to leave instead, but he grew violent, knocking a bowl of food to the floor and saying "if you weren't my mom, I'd kill you". In fear, the women called police. At this the son told his mom that if she called police he would break all the TVs in the house, and told the neighbor, "if they take me to jail, they will find you on the side of the road dead". Mom told police the son is a recovering heroin junkie currently using methadone. The son was charged with domestic assault, domestic battery and simple assault.
I just think that there has to be a more sensible location for this clinic
Quote from: APN on July 14, 2008, 10:24:58 PM
I urge all of you responding to the posts on this site to examine the facts. Methadone treats addictions. It does not cure an addiction, but it DOES return people to productive citizens who are able to work and return to loving families. Methadone can take an addict off of the street and deter crime by offering a LEGAL substitute for opiate addiction. The people who have posted about unsavory characters coming into Berwyn have not looked closely at their own community. As a nurse practitioner I have cared for MANY patients who have addictions to vicodin, cocaine, heroin, amphetamines, etc. These people are loosing their livliehood, their loved ones, and their children to their illegal drug dependency. You don't know about these people because it is not "acceptable" conversation. I assure you that people from your community- as well as mine - have illegal addictions. Methadone offers people with opiate addiction hope for normalization of their life.
Children are not going to be at risk from "junkies" hanging out in the proposed clinic neighborhood any more than their risk from exposure related to the media and their experiences growing up in a Chicago suburb. Addictions touch the lives of millions. Is it wrong to offer hope and a chance to function productively to someone who is struggling?
As someone has noted - the clinic does not accept medicaid. The patients in this proposed clinic are working, have insurance, have responsibility, and are accountable. They do not get their methadone if they do not meet their responsibilities. I urge caution when comparing this clinic to those who DO accept medicaid and serve a primarily indigent population. We need treatment clinics in ALL areas, to serve ALL persons. I think you will be pleasantly surprised by the professionalism of the clinic staff and their clients when this new clinic opens. Please be open to a different point of view. The old stereotypes about heroin addicts are changing. Your accountant may be on methadone or your real estate agent may be on methadone - the fact is you would never know. You may have not known that six months ago they were sleeping in the street waiting for another fix while their children went hungry. Methadone does work - not for everyone, but it is worth trying, along with counseling and other addiction treatment methodologies. The BBC will offer these treatment methodologies with methadone. If one life is saved, one family is reunited - it will all be worth it.
They ALL need to be saved, but this clinic will only save the ones who can pay? Inspiring.
Quote from: APN on July 14, 2008, 10:24:58 PM
If one life is saved, one family is reunited - it will all be worth it.
However, if one crime incident occurs, none of the profits will be worth it.
Quote from: formerfalcon on July 14, 2008, 10:37:57 PM
The driver appeared fidgety and nervous, prompting a call for backup officers.
LMAO!!!!!! Perhaps if he was also drooling, they could have shot him on sight?
How are you going to draw in other viable businesses with a methadone clinic for a neighbor? If this goes through, that will be the end of the DD.
I have a feeling there is a lot of hypocrisy to be had in this thread.
I wonder how many of those people complaining about a methadone clinic in Berwyn ever called for the legalization of drugs, decried the war on drugs for "wasting" limited judicial and penal resources, or even worked to set free people who drove under the influence...
Just more of the Not In My Back Yard attitude...
some interesting info/ questions/ observations:
#1) I own 6822-36 Windsor, certainly within 500 feet, and was NEVER given any type of notification
about any ZBA hearing. i have a major problem with that.
#2) earlier in this thread, "kick out the jams" hit the nail right on the head; WHAT is nona chapman's relationship
with the petitioner???
bobby agreed with nona because they're friends
phelan agreed with nona because he hates oconnor
skryd, i give the benefit of the doubt to, because she probably wants to avoid litigation
and foolishly was led down that path by nona & bobby
#3) properly noted by mustang, i was given crap for six months about letting a scrapbooking/ photography studio
open on cermak by same said alderman, yet, presto, they open the doors wide for a methodone clinic???
#4) why didn't bobby & nona wait for a full council to be present for the vote??? they new they
would lose if day & ramos were there and voted NO. so they rammed it through the ONLY night they could.
can they honestly look themselves in the mirror and say that was the right thing to do for berwyn???
mike
Quote from: mustang54 on July 14, 2008, 10:19:15 PM
Why was no one worried about a lawsuit from the woman who was not allowed to open a scrapbook store on Cermak? I personally dont buy that reasoning for voting for the clinic.
Maybe the zoning board and the city council thought the case by the scrapbook store on Cermak would be weaker, given the law while they thought the case by the methadone clinic would be stronger and harder to defend against? I don't know.
But, it is a good point, Mustang. ANYONE denied a business permit can potentially sue the city for that denial, not just a methadone clinic. The methadone clinic is no different than any other business that threatens to sue the city for denial of a permit.
But, it does make for a interesting contrast on the silliness of the laws on the books. The law is used to deny a photo scrapbook store but is interpretted to allow a methadone clinic.
To quote Dickens - "The law is a ass — a idiot. If that's the eye of the law, the law is a bachelor; and the worst I wish the law is that his eye may be opened by experience—by experience."
Mr. Bumble
I believe Jim Ramos is vacationing. Can't reach him at either number I have, I've Emailed him voicing my concern over this location.
Please contact your alderperson and voice your opinions and concerns.
Quote from: k6s2zvfw on July 15, 2008, 07:26:04 AM
#3) properly noted by mustang, i was given crap for six months about letting a scrapbooking/ photography studio
open on cermak by same said alderman, yet, presto, they open the doors wide for a methodone clinic???
...I fear those scrapbookers much more than heroin addicts Mike.
Quote from: Suzy Q on July 15, 2008, 12:57:55 AM
How are you going to draw in other viable businesses with a methadone clinic for a neighbor? If this goes through, that will be the end of the DD.
From what I hear, the Evanston clinic location has attracted a few pawn shops to open. That's just what we need in Berwyn to attract young families to frequent the area. Would the City of Naperville allow a methadone clinice to open near their Riverwalk, fearing a lawsuit? I don't think so. Their leaders actually get it, and that's one of the reasons why they are #3 in
Money magazine's list of places to live.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 14, 2008, 09:39:37 PM
Quote from: Boris on July 14, 2008, 08:54:16 PM
Y'know, these days I don't follow local as much as I do national politics...but from what I read here, it seems that OC/#8/Weiner mostly have the good of the city in mind, while the "gang of four", have what? Status quo? reversion to the good 'ol days?...in mind.
It still baffles me how everyone makes OC out to be this white knight who is carrying this city on his shoulders and crusading for righteousness --- please, look around people. OC could care less if a clinic goes in the DD. He was after all, the one trying to put the Food 4 Less in the plaza without regard to what the ward's residents wanted (he just wanted the tax revenue). The clinic is a campaign issue for OC and he is spinning it into a black and white issue when there are of course shades of grey. The council members voting against the issue are looking to avoid another lawsuit against the city (I believe the city has been successfully sued in the past for preventing other businesses from going into specific spaces) - do you really think they want the clinic there either? I don't think anyone but the owner of the clinic wants the clinic here. They (the Gang of Four) are trying to avoid future lawsuits. If the taxpayers want to gamble and possibly foot the bill (as Shelly suggested), then so be it. If the residents don't want it, then it shouldn' t be in there. However the good vs. evil illusion was created by the Three Am"egos" and they are using it for OC's political advantage.
OC care about the city? He cares more about jobs for his patronage hires (the same kind he promised to clean up from the old administration). At least he is not without a heart - I heard he's weeping at night over the poor librarians he laid off.
Weiner is threatening to name names on his blog as if he frickin Joseph McCarthy.
#8... well, I can't argue with you here. If there was a Mount Rushmore in Berwyn, his head would certainly be the first one chiseled on there (hey, maybe we can convince the plaza to hold off on the Walgreen's so we can put that up where the Spindle used to be).
Wow you really amaze me in with your insight.
First you argue that everything will be ok because maybe some of the methadone addicts will eat lunch at LaNotte thus actually helping the businesses.
Now your actually comparing a Food4Less to a methadone clinic.
Your PRICELESS!!!
Please read the title of this posting and stick to the subject. All the BS crap you listed above is the main reason we are in this situation. Because instead of coming together
as a community and supporting the Mayor and then (here is the important part) judging him at
re-elect time as to what he has accomplished and what he fell short on.
Instead we have an Alderman (#7) who has been running for Mayor since the day the OC took office because he feels an entitlement to the throne. And we have his minions doing
everything they can to blame and tarnish the Mayor, including trying to blame this fiasco on him.
It is clear that the resident of Berwyn and especially those around the DD do not want this clinic. So instead of talking about Food4Less or the lay-offs lets try and figure out a way
to get out of mess.
1st clue Bennifer- Blaming the Mayor is not the answer
Quote from: SILK on July 14, 2008, 08:03:07 PM
Maybe people should be more worried about taking the Gang of Four to task for this instead of coming up with bs excuses, searching for justifications, and/or looking to shift the blame.
It seems like alot of people feel this way. The best way to do this is at the polls it would seem. But is anyone up to the task of taking them on?
Quote from: Clean Sweep on July 15, 2008, 11:06:38 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 14, 2008, 08:03:07 PM
Maybe people should be more worried about taking the Gang of Four to task for this instead of coming up with bs excuses, searching for justifications, and/or looking to shift the blame.
It seems like alot of people feel this way. The best way to do this is at the polls it would seem. But is anyone up to the task of taking them on?
Yes, themselves!
They and their supporters are their own worst enemy.
Their supporters are the worst, actually, since they espouse the glory of the old guard, which is just what they would not like to be known as representing . . . :666:
We need to stop blaming this party or that party or O.K., even my favorite person, OC.
The polls, next April will be the place to really voice your opinion.
In the mean while ALL need to put their heads together and find a way to work this issue out.
It's not a surprise this Meth clinic opening has began a political football scenario.
I would hope OC does not do a lot of grandstanding tomorrow, instead as the current leader
I would think he will calmly work with the others to find a better solution, and not put down
the rest, for this will only make things worse.
Professionalism all the way around would be nice for a change, especially since the news media
should be present.
The ones who constantly blame the administration are your people. You and yours should heed your own advice, stat.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 15, 2008, 11:30:29 AM
Professionalism all the way around would be nice for a change, especially since the news media
should be present.
You would think this would be obvious either way, shame you have to make a point of this, but you are right.
I started as the devil's advocate on this subject. And I still think treatment facilities are good. But I don't think this method of treatment is right for our area. I don't think it needs to be here north or south. I will try and be on-hand to support this not being here. However, the last time I went to one of these I wanted to take a nap afterwards it made my head hurt so much.
Quote from: Hogzilla on July 15, 2008, 11:49:31 AM
I started as the devil's advocate on this subject. And I still think treatment facilities are good. But I don't think this method of treatment is right for our area. I don't think it needs to be here north or south. I will try and be on-hand to support this not being here. However, the last time I went to one of these I wanted to take a nap afterwards it made my head hurt so much.
I agree that sometimes these things can get out of hand where alot is said yet nothing is said at the same time. I also see the value of a clinic but I question a for-profit facility really pushing thier clients to get off the stuff. What I read from anothers post was that it is actually supposed to be a 20 day program and then they are clean. I doubt they push to lose customers in 20 days.
Quote from: Clean Sweep on July 15, 2008, 12:04:01 PM
Quote from: Hogzilla on July 15, 2008, 11:49:31 AM
I started as the devil's advocate on this subject. And I still think treatment facilities are good. But I don't think this method of treatment is right for our area. I don't think it needs to be here north or south. I will try and be on-hand to support this not being here. However, the last time I went to one of these I wanted to take a nap afterwards it made my head hurt so much.
I agree that sometimes these things can get out of hand where alot is said yet nothing is said at the same time. I also see the value of a clinic but I question a for-profit facility really pushing thier clients to get off the stuff. What I read from anothers post was that it is actually supposed to be a 20 day program and then they are clean. I doubt they push to lose customers in 20 days.
Exactly. Holistic treatment is worthwhile, substitution makes no sense.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 15, 2008, 11:30:29 AM
We need to stop blaming this party or that party or O.K., even my favorite person, OC.
The polls, next April will be the place to really voice your opinion.
In the mean while ALL need to put their heads together and find a way to work this issue out.
It's not a surprise this Meth clinic opening has began a political football scenario.
I would hope OC does not do a lot of grandstanding tomorrow, instead as the current leader
I would think he will calmly work with the others to find a better solution, and not put down
the rest, for this will only make things worse.
Professionalism all the way around would be nice for a change, especially since the news media
should be present.
I, in turn, would like the others to WORK WITH the Mayor, as it should be, for the betterment of Berwyn. He is Berwyn's Mayor, not the others.
That's what I meant Ana, when I said, they ALL need to put their heads together and find a way
to work this out, but let's be realistic here we all know OC is the one most likely to lose it, and embarrass
the city if he does not remain calm and stay professional. I have seen him do it many times, sorry to say.
Not a way a Mayor who represents a city should behave. Just my opinion.
Maybe there should be a BTF Political Party! Put your applications in now!
I have been the target of the aldermen "losing it." Not very professional, in my opinion. The Mayor has always been very polite to me. I think that if he had his Aldermen supporting him in the best interests of our City, he would do a better job in public. The Mayor is constantly being attacked by some of his Aldermen, it is hard not to be on the defensive. The Mayor is very professional and articulate, given the chance, which is more than I can say for many of our City's leaders and workers.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 15, 2008, 12:41:03 PM
I have seen him do it many times, sorry to say.
Not a way a Mayor who represents a city should behave. Just my opinion.
She doesn't know her own leader as well as she should.
Forgive Berwyn Patsy, she's been far, far away too long.
Just going to say this. Election will come and go. Nothing will change. It's the same ppl raping Berwyn over and over again. It is quite obvious this clinic is another money making enterprise connection to the City. Until ppl here are willing to admit all these same ppl must go (everyone, including the evil empire known as the BDC who laughs behind your back at their cocktail parties and golf outings), we will never get rid of the cancer that is killing Berwyn. They are all self-serving. If at any time they had even an ounce of integrity, it was lost long ago. This clinic is to make money, not help ppl. Perhaps when they are done getting some drugs at the clinic they can stop by Salerno's and order a pizza. Sa.........lude. oops, did I say "lude"?
Quote from: apatriot on July 15, 2008, 02:49:26 PM
(everyone, including the evil empire known as the BDC who laughs behind your back at their cocktail parties and golf outings)
Maybe you need to work on your swing? ;)
Heard from a neighbor that Channel 2 is supposed to be there. Anyone else hear?
To answer Berwyn Patsy, the four alderpeople that voted for the clinic are Nona Chapman, Michele Skyrd, Mike Phelan, & Bobby Lovero and they state that there's no legal reason for them to vote against the clinic. We've all just heard about it in the last week now it's up to the alderfolks to have a FINAL vote on this at the city council meeting on July22nd. It's strange that the two alderpeople that voted NO on this issue (Mark Weiner and Joel Erickson); one of them is an attorney and must've found some legal reason to vote against this clinic. That or they asked around their ward and got a few opinions from the people who voted for them....Anyone planning on going to the city council meeting on the 22nd to oppose? Show those politicians what we think about the decisions they make without consulting their constituents first!!!
Wow, this is bringing the new users out of the woodwork!
For those of you who haven't seen the flyer yet, there's a pre-city council meeting tomorrow night at 6pm in the municipal parking lot next to Salerno's on Grove. The Mayor and all our alderpeople will be there to explain their votes and see the opposition to this clinic for themselves. I think there will be a petition passed around then too...
Quote from: APN on July 14, 2008, 10:24:58 PM
Please be open to a different point of view. The old stereotypes about heroin addicts are changing. Your accountant may be on methadone or your real estate agent may be on methadone - the fact is you would never know. You may have not known that six months ago they were sleeping in the street waiting for another fix while their children went hungry. Methadone does work - not for everyone, but it is worth trying, along with counseling and other addiction treatment methodologies. The BBC will offer these treatment methodologies with methadone. If one life is saved, one family is reunited - it will all be worth it.
APN - thank you for posting. You make many good points, and I feel many agree with your statements. I certainly share your point of view about addition treatment and counceling. I do not know enough about methodone to determine if it is an effective treatment or not, but that is not the real issue at stake here IMHO.
However, even though I support your comments, I do not support having the B. Buonauro clinic moving into this location. I believe this clinic should be in a location with the following facility attributes (at a minimum):
- Single use site (not mixed with other type of practitioners)
- Easy access & dedicated parking off of a main road (no congestion)
- Located away from retail/local pedestrian zones
I am concerned about the volume of patients that could be treated at this clinic on a daily basis. I imagine most patients will be in and out quickly (30mins?). This block already has some pedestrian/traffic issues, including:
- a dangerous two-way (not four-way) intersection to the south
- frequent traffic congestion due to Metra/freight train crossings (I've been late to peds appt more than once because of this, and I have been almost hit by cars zipping around each other trying to avoid the train)
- High foot traffic from children going to/from school at that intersection (add more cars, you have more risk of accidents)
- More people trying to beat the train? That's speculation, but increased volume usually means increased incidents
- Difficulty turning left & right off of Oak Park Ave. in that vicinity due to the train tracks
This sums up my concerns with the facility itself as being viable option for a clinic serving high volumes of clients from outside of the area. It will cost the city $ to address these issues and I interpret the 'well-being' part of the ordinance applies to my points above.
Quote from: APN on July 14, 2008, 10:24:58 PM
Children are not going to be at risk from "junkies" hanging out in the proposed clinic neighborhood any more than their risk from exposure related to the media and their experiences growing up in a Chicago suburb. Addictions touch the lives of millions. Is it wrong to offer hope and a chance to function productively to someone who is struggling?
I have some issue with this statement. I don't believe junkies are like vampires waiting in the shadows, ready to lurch out at the first blood snack that passes by. However, they are struggling and are not always in control of their actions. Desperation and mental breakdown are part of the package that comes with addiction. Hence many of the criminal activities quoted by other posters of folks on methadone.
Most of your clients will never cause any issue. That is a fact. But there is no way to predict the actions of everyone. These are the people coming to your clinic for help....as a result, I feel that your clientele increases the risk of my children, my neighbers, and myself who have to cross the same path repeatly as your clientele. My children already have enough 'exposure' as you mention. I don't need them exposed to anything more (than what they experience today) on our walks over to the ice cream shop or the farmers market. Or on my daily walk to the train station. Maybe 3% of your clientele have the potential to injure someone out of desperation, and you've just added that 3% potential to my life. Is it 1%? 10%? 30%? I don't know, and that bothers me. Any additional risk (to what exists today) is too much in my opinion.
And sums up my concern with have a methodone distribution clinic in my neighborhood.
As far as the fear of lawsuits, I have one new question to pose:
If someone is injured (assaulted, hit by a car, etc.) by a patient of the clinic outside of the clinic facility - let's say on the sidewalk in front of the building - can the city be sued or named as a party in any litigation brought by the victim? Does the presence of the clinic increase the potential for lawsuits brought by patients of the clinic (wrongful death) or residents involving patients of the clinic? I haven't seen anyone post about these scenarios and wonder if anyone has seen any stories involving this?
Quote from: Jennifer on July 15, 2008, 04:29:01 PM
To answer Berwyn Patsy, the four alderpeople that voted for the clinic are Nona Chapman, Michele Skyrd, Mike Phelan, & Bobby Lovero and they state that there's no legal reason for them to vote against the clinic. We've all just heard about it in the last week now it's up to the alderfolks to have a FINAL vote on this at the city council meeting on July22nd. It's strange that the two alderpeople that voted NO on this issue (Mark Weiner and Joel Erickson); one of them is an attorney and must've found some legal reason to vote against this clinic. That or they asked around their ward and got a few opinions from the people who voted for them....Anyone planning on going to the city council meeting on the 22nd to oppose? Show those politicians what we think about the decisions they make without consulting their constituents first!!!
Yeah you go show those politicians that their constiuents come first!!!!
I thought we were trying to make the Depot District attractive to prospective individuals & families interested in all Berwyn has to offer. I'm not sure having a methodone clinic near the ice cream shop and sundries shop at the corner...and all the new retail we're trying to attract in that area...do our alderpeople think this clinic will help in that initiative? And I resent being sold this idea as 'well, methodone cures alcoholism and it's also used to treat post-pardum depression'. Please, what are we, new??!! (well, to this blog anyway)
Quote from: Jennifer on July 15, 2008, 05:28:58 PM
I thought we were trying to make the Depot District attractive to prospective individuals & families interested in all Berwyn has to offer. I'm not sure having a methodone clinic near the ice cream shop and sundries shop at the corner...and all the new retail we're trying to attract in that area...do our alderpeople think this clinic will help in that initiative? And I resent being sold this idea as 'well, methodone cures alcoholism and it's also used to treat post-pardum depression'. Please, what are we, new??!! (well, to this blog anyway)
Thanks for posting. You are correct about the DD, retail and restrauants, I thought the same.
Tomorrow I hope to hear the reason the Alderman and building owner assumed the Methadone Clinic will fit into the long range plan of the Depot District. After all, the City agreed to let the BDC hire SawBridge Studio to do an extensive study of the Depot Corridor. I think the meeting is Thursday (I'll confirm), very busy week in the Depot.
If anything, we all know more about Methadone that we ever expected. Needles still creep me out!
If anything, we all know more about Methadone that we ever expected. Needles still creep me out!
[/quote]
You and me both! A neighbor of ours has regularly spotted used needles near dumpsters near the 30th/Oak Park Ave area. En route to our favorite bar in the evening, my husband and I get to watch drug deals at Maple near the Harlem Ave train stop. Maybe now drug dealers will have more of a reason to stop here from the city or even rent at one of our many apt vacancies along the train line.
I find it incredible that this group is still considering this location
after the huge public outcry that they are fully aware of.
Amazing.
Quote from: Jennifer on July 15, 2008, 05:51:37 PM
If anything, we all know more about Methadone that we ever expected. Needles still creep me out!
[/color]
You and me both! A neighbor of ours has regularly spotted used needles near dumpsters near the 30th/Oak Park Ave area. En route to our favorite bar in the evening, my husband and I get to watch drug deals at Maple near the Harlem Ave train stop. Maybe now drug dealers will have more of a reason to stop here from the city or even rent at one of our many apt vacancies along the train line.
[/quote]
Jennifer,
You must live near me. Please send me a pm about the spotted needles near the dumpster, a neighbor told me the same. PWhen you see a drug deal, call the police immediately.
It looks like all the major tv channels will be there
Quote from: Jennifer on July 15, 2008, 05:51:37 PM
If anything, we all know more about Methadone that we ever expected. Needles still creep me out!
[/color]
You and me both! A neighbor of ours has regularly spotted used needles near dumpsters near the 30th/Oak Park Ave area. En route to our favorite bar in the evening, my husband and I get to watch drug deals at Maple near the Harlem Ave train stop. Maybe now drug dealers will have more of a reason to stop here from the city or even rent at one of our many apt vacancies along the train line.
[/quote]
I hope you call the BPD when you see this going down.
Quote from: Jennifer on July 15, 2008, 05:51:37 PM
If anything, we all know more about Methadone that we ever expected. Needles still creep me out!
[/color]
You and me both! A neighbor of ours has regularly spotted used needles near dumpsters near the 30th/Oak Park Ave area. En route to our favorite bar in the evening, my husband and I get to watch drug deals at Maple near the Harlem Ave train stop. Maybe now drug dealers will have more of a reason to stop here from the city or even rent at one of our many apt vacancies along the train line.
[/quote]
Ok so all of this is going on now and you seem to have grown accustomed to it yet a methadone clinic gets you outraged? Do some of you think before you type or is it all free flowing nonsense?
Quote from: Thor on July 15, 2008, 11:00:40 AM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 14, 2008, 09:39:37 PM
Quote from: Boris on July 14, 2008, 08:54:16 PM
Y'know, these days I don't follow local as much as I do national politics...but from what I read here, it seems that OC/#8/Weiner mostly have the good of the city in mind, while the "gang of four", have what? Status quo? reversion to the good 'ol days?...in mind.
It still baffles me how everyone makes OC out to be this white knight who is carrying this city on his shoulders and crusading for righteousness --- please, look around people. OC could care less if a clinic goes in the DD. He was after all, the one trying to put the Food 4 Less in the plaza without regard to what the ward's residents wanted (he just wanted the tax revenue). The clinic is a campaign issue for OC and he is spinning it into a black and white issue when there are of course shades of grey. The council members voting against the issue are looking to avoid another lawsuit against the city (I believe the city has been successfully sued in the past for preventing other businesses from going into specific spaces) - do you really think they want the clinic there either? I don't think anyone but the owner of the clinic wants the clinic here. They (the Gang of Four) are trying to avoid future lawsuits. If the taxpayers want to gamble and possibly foot the bill (as Shelly suggested), then so be it. If the residents don't want it, then it shouldn' t be in there. However the good vs. evil illusion was created by the Three Am"egos" and they are using it for OC's political advantage.
OC care about the city? He cares more about jobs for his patronage hires (the same kind he promised to clean up from the old administration). At least he is not without a heart - I heard he's weeping at night over the poor librarians he laid off.
Weiner is threatening to name names on his blog as if he frickin Joseph McCarthy.
#8... well, I can't argue with you here. If there was a Mount Rushmore in Berwyn, his head would certainly be the first one chiseled on there (hey, maybe we can convince the plaza to hold off on the Walgreen's so we can put that up where the Spindle used to be).
Wow you really amaze me in with your insight.
First you argue that everything will be ok because maybe some of the methadone addicts will eat lunch at LaNotte thus actually helping the businesses.
Now your actually comparing a Food4Less to a methadone clinic.
Your PRICELESS!!!
Please read the title of this posting and stick to the subject. All the BS crap you listed above is the main reason we are in this situation. Because instead of coming together
as a community and supporting the Mayor and then (here is the important part) judging him at re-elect time as to what he has accomplished and what he fell short on.
Instead we have an Alderman (#7) who has been running for Mayor since the day the OC took office because he feels an entitlement to the throne. And we have his minions doing
everything they can to blame and tarnish the Mayor, including trying to blame this fiasco on him.
It is clear that the resident of Berwyn and especially those around the DD do not want this clinic. So instead of talking about Food4Less or the lay-offs lets try and figure out a way
to get out of mess.
1st clue Bennifer- Blaming the Mayor is not the answer
Apparently my attempt at humor with the La Notte comment went way over your head. Let's hope you're not a product of the Berwyn School District.
My post was related to the topic.
I am not blaming the mayor for the clinic --- I am blaming him for putting political spin on the issue. As I said, I don't think anyone really wants the clinic here. People on the BTF want to stick the clinic in some industrial zone, and that is fine (maybe inside Turano?).
If you think it's just a handful of DCOB members (or "minions," as you call them) that are upset about the OC, you are gravely mistaken. Beyond a half dozen people on this forum, I have heard little positive feedback about the OC. In fact, most people who admit to voting for him last time seem to do so with a look of shame.
Don't worry, I'm sure other posters will get back to the F4L and the layoffs is other posts. You are going to hear about OC's failures ad naseum for the next few months. And you are going to hear from Silk and Bonster about what the next mayor will do wrong when he/she is in office.
And no, I don't think that just because someone is the Mayor that the whole community must universally support him and his policies without partisanship throughout his term and wait for an election to can him if they don't like what he is doing. This isn't Bush the month after 9/11.
By the way, if you are looking for someone to blame, blame Day and Ramos who did not even bother to show up at the meeting to vote. Supposedly if they were there, there would have been a tie that'd be broken by the OC against the clinic.
Quote from: Bear on July 15, 2008, 05:55:09 PM
I find it incredible that this group is still considering this location
after the huge public outcry that they are fully aware of.
Amazing.
Yeah, no kidding! Evidently our alderpeople are scared of the city getting hit with a lawsuit if the folks behind the clinic are denied. It's a shame that we're faced with that fear, but that's the climate we live in today. I really hope they all vote NO on this on the 22nd. What a joke...
To clarify from my earlier post - we absolutely have called the BPD about the 'covert transactions' we've spotted. Sleep well, we're good residents too.
seems to me like there was certain segment of Berwyn that would have NEveR supported the Mayor, irrespective of what he did.
I'd be curious to know what statistics you can cite that would indicate virtually nobody outside this site supports him. It seems like this site is a fairly random sampling of public sentiment around town. Maybe in your circle the mayor is unpopular, jusr as I'm sure Mr. Lovero is unpopular in other circles.
Maybe I'm not getting something here, but it seems like there's been numerous lawsuits involving municipalities and methadone clinics throughout the US. Which means more than a few cities have said no. Did none of these cities fear litigation?
Quote from: Penguin on July 15, 2008, 06:32:32 PM
Maybe I'm not getting something here, but it seems like there's been numerous lawsuits involving municipalities and methadone clinics throughout the US. Which means more than a few cities have said no. Did none of these cities fear litigation?
Remember, City leaders believe that signs hanging over the sidewalk constitute a serious threat to public safety due to all the signs which fall off of buildings. You must miss the stories in the Trib and Sun-Times. "Afraid of a lawsuit" is a convenient cover 90% of the time.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 15, 2008, 06:21:35 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 14, 2008, 09:39:37 PM
blame Day and Ramos who did not even bother to show up at the meeting to vote.
?????
Ramos was not in town, vacations get scheduled way in advance. Why blame him? Are you in his ward? He may not be the most bombastic personality on the council, but he responds to his residents. Anyone out there want to comment on Day? I don't know the man.
Quote from: buzz on July 15, 2008, 06:41:17 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 14, 2008, 09:39:37 PM
blame Day and Ramos who did not even bother to show up at the meeting to vote.
?????
Ramos was not in town, vacations get scheduled way in advance. Why blame him? Are you in his ward? He may not be the most bombastic personality on the council, but he responds to his residents. Anyone out there want to comment on Day? I don't know the man.
\buzz - I'm not telling you anything you don't already know, but that's called DCoB spin. That's how Berwyn political parties stop the bleeding. Unfortunately, in this case, it ain't workin'.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 15, 2008, 06:21:35 PM
You are going to hear about OC's failures ad naseum for the next few months.
And you are going to hear from Silk and Bonster about what the next mayor will do wrong when he/she is in office.
That is correct. Much the same as OC's failures will be made public,
other undeniable truths must be made public as well.
And why are you calling your boy a "she?" Is there something really dirty about him we don't know (yet)?
I don't think he would appreciate that too much.
Quote from: buzz on July 15, 2008, 06:41:17 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 15, 2008, 06:21:35 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 14, 2008, 09:39:37 PM
blame Day and Ramos who did not even bother to show up at the meeting to vote.
?????
Ramos was not in town, vacations get scheduled way in advance. Why blame him? Are you in his ward? He may not be the most bombastic personality on the council, but he responds to his residents. Anyone out there want to comment on Day? I don't know the man.
thanks, buzz. ramos and day are the LAST to blame. bobby & nona took advantage of this situation.
no if's, and's or but's about it.
i spoke with a banker friend of mine today who has been on methodone for over a year. (for jaw pain)
drumroll please..........................it's located in..................................burr ridge
it's the location that's wrong here folks.
the location in burr ridge is in an office complex, not close to any schools, restaurants, or homes.
mike
p.s. bonster - you da best man - keep up the good work. (except lay-off my buddy stillo, o.k.)
(he got a good chuckle when i filled him in about his old stomping grounds today)
Mike,
He probably should have been crying, not laughing.
Do you know how important these clinics are? They give people who are addicted the chance to live to see their children grow up instead of Gramma and Grampa trying to copy. They are given a chance for life. Why are they addicts? Why is your hair red? Why is the sky blue? Only God has the answer. Please give them a place to go to turn their life around. Is one more chance too much to give? From a mother of an addicted daughter who was never given this chance 16 years ago and is now in a better place - heaven.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 15, 2008, 06:21:35 PM
By the way, if you are looking for someone to blame, blame Day and Ramos who did not even bother to show up at the meeting to vote. Supposedly if they were there, there would have been a tie that'd be broken by the OC against the clinic.
I think we now have a new definition of chutzpah.
Watch out, Bennifer. Giglio is just around the corner. :D ;D :D
Quote from: foreverhopeful on July 15, 2008, 08:02:31 PM
Do you know how important these clinics are? They give people who are addicted the chance to live to see their children grow up instead of Gramma and Grampa trying to copy. They are given a chance for life. Why are they addicts? Why is your hair red? Why is the sky blue? Only God has the answer. Please give them a place to go to turn their life around. Is one more chance too much to give? From a mother of an addicted daughter who was never given this chance 16 years ago and is now in a better place - heaven.
i agree with alot of what you said. however, what you didn't say was
where should it be.
i rented to counselor's for battered women. damn proud of it. good, and needed, for the west suburban area.
i'm really struggling with this being right in the
middle of the downtown depot district!!!!!!
mike
a meeting in a parking lot. Yes sirrreeee folks. this is BERWYN. I suggested to another poster that they get one of those giant sprayers that you wear on your back .... fill it with soap ..... and spray the shit out of everyone.
ahhhh, you can't breathe ??
isn't that a shame.
p.s. Mike, I am brushing up on my SWING, believe me. However ..
If I was to participate in one of these golf outings, I'm afraid that there may be a few mishaps .... accidents if you will.
yes ... tigerpatriot will be rounding out your foursome .............
Hello BDC .... shall we ummmm T-off --- LOOK - what's THAT !!!! (whack, whack, whack).
(pop, glug, glug, glug, ........ ahhhhhhh, nothin like a cold beer on a hot day)
Apparently my attempt at humor with the La Notte comment went way over your head. Let's hope you're not a product of the Berwyn School District.
My post was related to the topic.
I am not blaming the mayor for the clinic --- I am blaming him for putting political spin on the issue. As I said, I don't think anyone really wants the clinic here. People on the BTF want to stick the clinic in some industrial zone, and that is fine (maybe inside Turano?).
If you think it's just a handful of DCOB members (or "minions," as you call them) that are upset about the OC, you are gravely mistaken. Beyond a half dozen people on this forum, I have heard little positive feedback about the OC. In fact, most people who admit to voting for him last time seem to do so with a look of shame.
Don't worry, I'm sure other posters will get back to the F4L and the layoffs is other posts. You are going to hear about OC's failures ad naseum for the next few months. And you are going to hear from Silk and Bonster about what the next mayor will do wrong when he/she is in office.
And no, I don't think that just because someone is the Mayor that the whole community must universally support him and his policies without partisanship throughout his term and wait for an election to can him if they don't like what he is doing. This isn't Bush the month after 9/11.
By the way, if you are looking for someone to blame, blame Day and Ramos who did not even bother to show up at the meeting to vote. Supposedly if they were there, there would have been a tie that'd be broken by the OC against the clinic.
[/quote]
Bennifer, Bennifer, Bennifer,
So many knuckled headed comments so little time. Here is another tip for you, next time you want to be funny use one of the emoticons ;D so we know your not be serious. Based on your past comments its hard to know when you are attempting humor or just being stupid!! Although I do like your latest comment blaming the Alderman who were not even there to vote,,,,,,,, or were you using humor again? I can't tell, maybe its my non-Berwyn school system upbring :-*
Quote from: apatriot on July 15, 2008, 09:54:58 PM
a meeting in a parking lot. Yes sirrreeee folks. this is BERWYN. I suggested to another poster that they get one of those giant sprayers that you wear on your back .... fill it with soap ..... and spray the shit out of everyone.
ahhhh, you can't breathe ??
isn't that a shame.
p.s. Mike, I am brushing up on my SWING, believe me. However ..
If I was to participate in one of these golf outings, I'm afraid that there may be a few mishaps .... accidents if you will.
yes ... tigerpatriot will be rounding out your foursome .............
Hello BDC .... shall we ummmm T-off --- LOOK - what's THAT !!!! (whack, whack, whack).
(pop, glug, glug, glug, ........ ahhhhhhh, nothin like a cold beer on a hot day)
lmfao
Doesn't the OC have a special budget meeting with the Council and two of the Unions at the same time tonight?
Quote from: frank white on July 16, 2008, 06:23:31 AM
Doesn't the OC have a special budget meeting with the Council and two of the Unions at the same time tonight?
The rally against the methadone clinic is at 6 PM. The COW meeting on the budget is scheduled to start at 7:30 PM.
Quote from: jake on July 15, 2008, 06:32:08 AM
I have a feeling there is a lot of hypocrisy to be had in this thread.
I wonder how many of those people complaining about a methadone clinic in Berwyn ever called for the legalization of drugs, decried the war on drugs for "wasting" limited judicial and penal resources, or even worked to set free people who drove under the influence...
Just more of the Not In My Back Yard attitude...
I think if we think this through, it is more of a "Not In Anyone's Backyard" attitude. Of course, the first reaction is an outcry against this clinic in Berwyn, but I'm really hearing (and I agree) that methadone clinics do NOT belong in anyone's neighborhood because of the criminal element associated with them. Methadone is addictive and it sounds like the ultimate goal is not to get patients to be drug-free, it is just to get people to stop using heroin. Methadone becomes more like insulin to a diabetic...no plan to ever stop taking it. That is why it is big money! Earlier in this thread, the clinic owner stated that only 30 or 35% of patients would be covered by insurance implying that MOST patients will be private pay and it is expensive. The highly addictive nature of this drug (and heroin) makes people hooked on it desperate to have it, desperate for money to pay for it and thus more likely to impulsively commit crimes like theft and prostitution in order to get it. The highly addictive nature of this drug (and heroin) may make addicts want to live close to their source. I fear that while patients (in large numbers) from other neighborhoods are waiting for their train, they'll take a tour of the Depot District and decide they want to live near their source. The highly addictive nature of the drug (and heroin) make methadone clinics a target market for heroin dealers.
I appreciate the anecdotal stories from the parent whose daughter didn't get help and the nurse practitioner who said "If one patient is saved...it will all be worth it." Well, not to me. The overwhelming evidence about these clinics is that they are bad for neighborhoods/communities.
I believe that this fight needs to be taken beyond Berwyn. Maybe there should be pressure put on state legislators to draft a law that limits/regulates where methadone clinics can be opened. I think there are other laws like this regarding adult book stores. Personally, I think this type of clinic should be even more strictly limited to large hospital campuses like UIC or Rush or Loyola and Industrial Parks. Just pushing it to someone else's neighborhood (because we perceive Berwyn as "better than over there") is not right and also is only a temporary solution until another methadone clinic comes along.
who's schedule to speal/appear at tonigh's forum?
Quote from: frank white on July 15, 2008, 06:14:48 PM
Quote from: Jennifer on July 15, 2008, 05:51:37 PM
If anything, we all know more about Methadone that we ever expected. Needles still creep me out!
You and me both! A neighbor of ours has regularly spotted used needles near dumpsters near the 30th/Oak Park Ave area. En route to our favorite bar in the evening, my husband and I get to watch drug deals at Maple near the Harlem Ave train stop. Maybe now drug dealers will have more of a reason to stop here from the city or even rent at one of our many apt vacancies along the train line.
Ok so all of this is going on now and you seem to have grown accustomed to it yet a methadone clinic gets you outraged? Do some of you think before you type or is it all free flowing nonsense?
Mr White,
A) I don't believe they have "grown accustomed to it" (atleast not accustomed to
liking it)
and...
B) Even if one sees drug deals going down on a daily basis, in their 'hood, it's not comparable to welcoming a clinic such as this, so close to ones' dwelling quarters
On another note; I spoke with a friend of mine who told me there was a Meth clinic in Downers Grove which brought with it myriad problems...parking issues/traffic stops, robberies/thefts, OD's, panhandling, prostitution etc...just what Berwyn needs, especially in this speculative time of rumors of layoffs @ PD - who'll handle this crap, the Neighborhood Watch volunteers???
The Mayor who will be in full damage control mode and the Alderman who voted yes with raincoats for easy cleanup from all the rotten tomatoes the crowd will be hurling. Unfortunately it seems the wrong folks are getting the blame on this. Will be like going to a taping of the Jerry Springer show. :oink:
Just so everyone is clear, "Meth" and "Methadone" are two very different things. As are "Meth Lab" and "Methadone Clinic." :oink:
Quote from: Hogzilla on July 16, 2008, 09:27:50 AM
Just so everyone is clear, "Meth" and "Methadone" are two very different things. As are "Meth Lab" and "Methadone Clinic." :oink:
Good point, I was going to make that same correction but you beat me to it, Hogz
Quote from: frank white on July 16, 2008, 06:23:31 AM
Doesn't the OC have a special budget meeting with the Council and two of the Unions at the same time tonight?
You are correct. Which meeting are you attending?
Quote from: 'Rita/aka Berwyn Scumbag Broad on July 16, 2008, 09:36:00 AM
Quote from: Hogzilla on July 16, 2008, 09:27:50 AM
Just so everyone is clear, "Meth" and "Methadone" are two very different things. As are "Meth Lab" and "Methadone Clinic." :oink:
Good point, I was going to make that same correction but you beat me to it, Hogz
Wasn't trying to be snarky or anything. Some may actually not know the difference. I know if I heard someone was handing out "meth" I'd be pretty freaked out. ;)
Quote from: apatriot on July 15, 2008, 09:54:58 PM
a meeting in a parking lot. Yes sirrreeee folks. this is BERWYN. I suggested to another poster that they get one of those giant sprayers that you wear on your back .... fill it with soap ..... and spray the shit out of everyone.
ahhhh, you can't breathe ??
isn't that a shame.
p.s. Mike, I am brushing up on my SWING, believe me. However ..
If I was to participate in one of these golf outings, I'm afraid that there may be a few mishaps .... accidents if you will.
yes ... tigerpatriot will be rounding out your foursome .............
Hello BDC .... shall we ummmm T-off --- LOOK - what's THAT !!!! (whack, whack, whack).
(pop, glug, glug, glug, ........ ahhhhhhh, nothin like a cold beer on a hot day)
I thought all you needed was your formidible keyboard?
Quote from: Shelley on July 16, 2008, 07:43:45 AM
The overwhelming evidence about these clinics is that they are bad for neighborhoods/communities.
That's what I asked earlier. Does anybody actually have any legitimate, reliable evidence about the issues surrounding these clinics? Or is it the "everyone knows how bad they are", or "a friend told me about one in his brother's town", etc., kind of anecdotal crap? I don't know why anybody should be suprised that they still want to open this thing after everyone is raising a fuss about it, I'm sure they face the same reaction whenever they try to open up one of these clinics.
Crunchie -
Check out Bear's post #129 on page 7 which includes a link about the effect of a methadone clinic in Washington, D.C.
Quote from: mominator on July 16, 2008, 10:14:35 AM
Crunchie -
Check out Bear's post #129 on page 7 which includes a link about the effect of a methadone clinic in Washington, D.C.
OK, I read that article. Basically, it's about a big drug dealing operation in a McDonald's parking lot near one of the clinics. I don't quite understand why the cops don't bust these dealers, if that is in fact what is going down there. Also, I'm not sure I would put much credibility in some internet website called "Cannabis News". Cicero Ave. and Polk St. used to be a big drug connection area. The cops started patrolling heavily and making busts, and now it's clean. So, I'm still waiting for some legitimate feedback.
I like Shelley's comments from yesterday. I agree that this isn't about 'not in our backyard' or pushing it onto another neighborhood - it doesn't belong in ANY neighborhood. It's just shocking that the alderpeople who have touted for so long their support for Berwyn and helping in the effort to advertise/draw more people/families to our area, would even consider this clinic appropriate for the Depot District for all the family foot traffic it gets; or ANY neighborhood for that matter.
And the pediatric office is a good point too..what parent wants to walk through the outdoor smoke break area to get their child to see their doctor (or would that just be me, an ex-smoker?). I don't like the desperate nature of the drug Methodone either...our neighbor's old truck got broken into last month; had his old beat-down radio stolen from it. What do you think the perpetrator wanted with that radio? To put it into his or her own car? Don't think so. We have enough drug-related crimes in Berwyn as it is. What's wrong putting the clinic in an office complex that isn't near a school, retail, high community foot traffic area? Did the zoning department think this through at all before approving or were they drawn in too?
Quote from: Shelley on July 16, 2008, 07:43:45 AM
I think if we think this through, it is more of a "Not In Anyone's Backyard" attitude. Of course, the first reaction is an outcry against this clinic in Berwyn, but I'm really hearing (and I agree) that methadone clinics do NOT belong in anyone's neighborhood because of the criminal element associated with them. Methadone is addictive and it sounds like the ultimate goal is not to get patients to be drug-free, it is just to get people to stop using heroin. Methadone becomes more like insulin to a diabetic...no plan to ever stop taking it. That is why it is big money! Earlier in this thread, the clinic owner stated that only 30 or 35% of patients would be covered by insurance implying that MOST patients will be private pay and it is expensive. The highly addictive nature of this drug (and heroin) makes people hooked on it desperate to have it, desperate for money to pay for it and thus more likely to impulsively commit crimes like theft and prostitution in order to get it. The highly addictive nature of this drug (and heroin) may make addicts want to live close to their source. I fear that while patients (in large numbers) from other neighborhoods are waiting for their train, they'll take a tour of the Depot District and decide they want to live near their source. The highly addictive nature of the drug (and heroin) make methadone clinics a target market for heroin dealers.
I appreciate the anecdotal stories from the parent whose daughter didn't get help and the nurse practitioner who said "If one patient is saved...it will all be worth it." Well, not to me. The overwhelming evidence about these clinics is that they are bad for neighborhoods/communities.
I believe that this fight needs to be taken beyond Berwyn. Maybe there should be pressure put on state legislators to draft a law that limits/regulates where methadone clinics can be opened. I think there are other laws like this regarding adult book stores. Personally, I think this type of clinic should be even more strictly limited to large hospital campuses like UIC or Rush or Loyola and Industrial Parks. Just pushing it to someone else's neighborhood (because we perceive Berwyn as "better than over there") is not right and also is only a temporary solution until another methadone clinic comes along.
Apparently, there are other states that have created this kind of legislation: http://www.roanoke.com/news/nrv/wb/wb/xp-57175
"Wunsch and her business partners at Addiction Recovery Systems tried last spring to open a clinic at the Colony Park office complex on South Main Street. But they were
thwarted by a state law banning the clinics within a half-mile of schools or licensed day care centers."
Distributed by the Department of Health & Human Services, Center for Substance Abuse Treatment (CSAT) recommended guidelines and protocols for all U.S. substance abuse treatment programs.
"All neighborhoods in the United States today have witnessed or suffered the tragic effects of alcohol and other drug abuse". While many Americans understand and worry about the extent of the growing drug problem, there is still plenty of "community opposition--commonly known as the NIMBY (not in my backyard) syndrome--" when it comes to opening a treatment center in their own neighborhood.
"The NIMBY syndrome is not new...," and along with substance abuse treatment centers, NIMBY has delayed or stopped the openings of many "health and social service facilities, including homeless shelters, group homes for the mentally ill, halfway houses for ex-offenders..." and health facilities for patients with AIDS.
While some localities try to use zoning ordinances to stop a clinic from opening, this is discriminatory and are unlawful. "Federal disability-based antidiscrimination laws (including the Fair Housing Act, the Rehabilitation Act and the Americans With Disabilities Act), the equal protection clause of the fourteenth amendment..., and many individual State laws have been used successfully to overturn the actions of local governments" that attempt to stop the opening of drug abuse programs.
Community opposition to methadone treatment clinics seems to be based on the fear that clinics will draw drug pushers, thieves, and other criminals, and property values will decline. "In reality, treatment programs pose no legitimate danger to the health or welfare of residents. . .nor do they draw pushers to the area. In fact, (clinics) improve neighborhoods by helping people get well". "Despite more than 25 years of research and practical experience in methadone maintenance treatment of opiate addicts, the public lacks knowledge of the scientific efficacy of methadone maintenance treatment".
It is important that "local decision makers and residents understand that treatment programs help communities by reducing many of the costly problems associated with active alcohol and other drug abuse and that treatment enables former users to return to productive lives". People need to learn about and understand methadone maintenance treatment (MMT): that MMT "encourages abstinence and prevents (patients) from relapsing"; that patients on MMT do not get high from their daily dose of medication, but rather are able to function normally and return to jobs; that clinics monitor "(patient) drug use through urinalysis..."; and discourage any loitering outside of the clinic by patients. Additionally, MMT is "associated with substantial improvements in public health and employment and a reduction in HIV risk and criminal behavior".
The cost effectiveness of methadone treatment. There are numerous studies that show the benefit and savings to communities of methadone maintenance treatment when compared to costs such as imprisoning drug users, hospitalizing addicts for health problems resulting from illicit drug use (like HIV/AIDS, HCV, TB, etc.), and costs due to lost productivity and illness, including paying for illicit-drug-using addicts on welfare, Medicaid, Aid to Families with Dependent Children, and for foster care of children of mothers/fathers in prison. When you add in the costs of crime resulting from illicit drug use, the cost of treatment sounds better and smarter all the time!
"Substance abuse treatment can greatly reduce health care costs". . . . For every dollar spent on treatment, more than $7 in future costs were saved.
" With treatment, " criminal activity declined by two-thirds and hospitalizations by one-third," and use of alcohol and other drugs declined "two-fifths."
Also, after treatment began, "States averaged an increase of more than 70% in the number of (patients) employed."
Arrests of patients dropped dramatically, decreases ranging from "50% to 90%" in most states.
Again, the Department of Health & Human Services, Center for Substance Abuse Treatment (CSAT) cite numerous studies to back up these amazing figures. The public just needs to hear about them.
Costs of different kinds of treatment are compared too, showing that methadone maintenance treatment is the most cost effective of all of them. For example, "the treatment costs per day were residential $61.47; social model $34.41; outpatient drug free $7.87; methadone (maintenance) $6.37; and methadone (detox) $6.79." It also points out that because of the "high recidivism or relapse rates" with the chronic disease of addiction, the best cost benefits come with long-term treatment.
When patients dropped out of treatment, most relapsed to drug abuse within one year, often returning to previous criminal patterns to support the addiction. Therefore, patients should be encouraged to remain in treatment".
You can still fight it in court. Nobody is stopping the clinic from opening. What they're saying is, NOT in that location.
Thanks for the cut and paste article.
"Disability-based antidiscrimination laws" --- Disability - give me a break! Drug addicts are criminals, after all. It's great to try to make them softer and fuzzier by calling them victims or disabled, but not many people are buying that line.
Here's another link that's related to proposed legislation limiting the location of methadone clinics:
http://www.cjpf.org/DealingnearclinicsSesenbrennerWashPost.htm
When patients dropped out of treatment, most relapsed to drug abuse within one year, often returning to previous criminal patterns to support the addiction. Therefore, patients should be encouraged to remain in treatment".
[/quote]
Yes and when patients drop out of treatment and relapse to their old habits, I wonder where they'll decide to return to their previous criminal patterns to support their addiction.
Quote from: Shelley on July 16, 2008, 10:46:05 AM"Wunsch and her business partners
mmm...a Wunsche's Burger (http://www.wunschebroscafe.com/menu2.html) sounds good right now.
-Old Spring
Quote from: Jennifer on July 16, 2008, 11:41:24 AM
When patients dropped out of treatment, most relapsed to drug abuse within one year, often returning to previous criminal patterns to support the addiction. Therefore, patients should be encouraged to remain in treatment".
Yes and when patients drop out of treatment and relapse to their old habits, I wonder where they'll decide to return to their previous criminal patterns to support their addiction.
[/quote]
Are jennifer and mominator the same person? It's hard to seperate the stupidity that flows from these two.
Sheesh. Some welcome. I thought online forums such as Berwyn Talk were places to share and discuss ideas and debate important local decisions like this clinic's location. Not to undermine the opinions of those who differ with yours and encounter the condescension you freely offer. The clinic owners with whom you side don't stoop to such behavior...
This thread is starting to make the Salem Witch Hunt look sane.
why is that cunchie?
i could be wrong, but I think there is going to be quite a crowd at the parking lot tonight. I know ppl that never come to or even read BTF who are really pee'd off about this and will be out in force. Wish I could be there but I'm still practicing up on my golf swing. That said, I hope we can get a good report back on the goings on. Oooo it's going to be a hot night. Someone take some pics will ya. Close ups of our city officials as they look into a crowd reminiscent of the Ox Bow Incident, however, please please leave all ropes at home. I told you .... man the soap sprayers. When you don't hear what you like .... open fire. Pick your shots don't rush take your time. Concentrate Dawn works best. But if you like Joy ... that's fine too.
Kinda feel sorry for OC cause he's such a big damn target, however .... despite the heat, Bobby will be easy to spot. He will be the one with the baby face .... saying little and wearing a black jacket. When he goes 3/4 length watch out. Duck .... then run. Duck ... then run. A few could hide behind the dumpster by Salernos and take your shots from there. Lay low ... go prone if you have to. I could tell you for sure that if Bon and I were coming you'd never see us. We would take out the entire group from behind .... an ambush. Then split off and catch em in a crossfire. OHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhh god, I wish I didn't have to practice that golf swing tonight. This just sounds toooooooooo good to miss. (patriot glances at the loaded soap sprayer in the hallway just waiting for action).
All the above is in jest of course, but don't let these guys off the hook. Take it to em. You know how to do it. This is no time to be coy. I'm sure the owners Sol/Sal-Liz will be there. Don't fall for the phoney baloney double talk. They have their hands in the PAV, the BDC, now want to bring drug addicts to the DD. Ain't gonna happen ... that's the MESSAGE you give.
Quote from: frank white on July 16, 2008, 11:43:48 AM
Quote from: Jennifer on July 16, 2008, 11:41:24 AM
When patients dropped out of treatment, most relapsed to drug abuse within one year, often returning to previous criminal patterns to support the addiction. Therefore, patients should be encouraged to remain in treatment".
Yes and when patients drop out of treatment and relapse to their old habits, I wonder where they'll decide to return to their previous criminal patterns to support their addiction.
Settle down Frank. No need to make personal attacks.
Are jennifer and mominator the same person? It's hard to seperate the stupidity that flows from these two.
[/quote]
Quote from: Liz Buonauro on July 16, 2008, 11:01:47 AM
... While some localities try to use zoning ordinances to stop a clinic from opening, this is discriminatory and are unlawful. "Federal disability-based antidiscrimination laws (including the Fair Housing Act, the Rehabilitation Act and the Americans With Disabilities Act), the equal protection clause of the fourteenth amendment..., and many individual State laws have been used successfully to overturn the actions of local governments" that attempt to stop the opening of drug abuse programs...
Doesn't the Constitution give the government the right to regulate commerce? Since you are a for-profit entity that gets 65% of its revenue via cash/credit card, that would make your clinic fall under the definition of commerce.
Zoming laws are used to regulate commerce and the government has every right to regulate types of commercial establishments. For example, Berwyn has a limit on liquor licenses. Does that limit on liquor licenses mean that there is discrmination against people who consume alcohol?
How is the limitation on for-profit commercial entities that sell alcohol different than for-profit commerical entities that sell methadone (which apparently is what you are doing).
If the city has a right to limit taverns, why doesn't the city have a right to limit methadone sales centers? What is the difference between a tavern and a methadone sales center in terms of the government's right to regulate commerce?
Ted
Ted,
the difference between the "disabled" methadone client and a person who consumes alcohol is that the former is afforded greater constitutional protection based on his "disabled" status Nonetheless, that doesn't mean municipalities are barred from enacting reasonable zoning ordinances
Quote from: SILK on July 16, 2008, 12:25:59 PM
why is that cunchie?
Because everybody is assuming the worst without any credible evidence to support their hysteria. I'm not saying they are necessarily wrong, but they seem to be jumping to conclusions which may not be valid.
Quote from: Crunchie on July 16, 2008, 12:46:25 PM
Quote from: SILK on July 16, 2008, 12:25:59 PM
why is that cunchie?
Because everybody is assuming the worst without any credible evidence to support their hysteria. I'm not saying they are necessarily wrong, but they seem to be jumping to conclusions which may not be valid.
Nothing wrong with that. In the absence of credible evidence, that's how you drum up support in this apathetic town. Get everyone riled up and force the answers from those in the know. ;)
and whose evidence is going to be considered credible? The ppl who will make money off of this? The alderman who voted for it? come on. I personally could care less about evidence on this topic. It should be what the ppl want and don't want. The DD is no place for this business and the alderman who voted for it ..... know it.
Quote from: apatriot on July 16, 2008, 12:29:59 PM
i could be wrong, but I think there is going to be quite a crowd at the parking lot tonight. I know ppl that never come to or even read BTF who are really pee'd off about this and will be out in force. Wish I could be there but I'm still practicing up on my golf swing. That said, I hope we can get a good report back on the goings on. Oooo it's going to be a hot night. Someone take some pics will ya. Close ups of our city officials as they look into a crowd reminiscent of the Ox Bow Incident, however, please please leave all ropes at home. I told you .... man the soap sprayers. When you don't hear what you like .... open fire. Pick your shots don't rush take your time. Concentrate Dawn works best. But if you like Joy ... that's fine too.
Kinda feel sorry for OC cause he's such a big damn target, however .... despite the heat, Bobby will be easy to spot. He will be the one with the baby face .... saying little and wearing a black jacket. When he goes 3/4 length watch out. Duck .... then run. Duck ... then run. A few could hide behind the dumpster by Salernos and take your shots from there. Lay low ... go prone if you have to. I could tell you for sure that if Bon and I were coming you'd never see us. We would take out the entire group from behind .... an ambush. Then split off and catch em in a crossfire. OHHHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhh god, I wish I didn't have to practice that golf swing tonight. This just sounds toooooooooo good to miss. (patriot glances at the loaded soap sprayer in the hallway just waiting for action).
All the above is in jest of course, but don't let these guys off the hook. Take it to em. You know how to do it. This is no time to be coy. I'm sure the owners Sol/Sal-Liz will be there. Don't fall for the phoney baloney double talk. They have their hands in the PAV, the BDC, now want to bring drug addicts to the DD. Ain't gonna happen ... that's the MESSAGE you give.
LMFAO... good stuff apat! ;D
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 16, 2008, 12:35:13 PM
Quote from: frank white on July 16, 2008, 11:43:48 AM
Quote from: Jennifer on July 16, 2008, 11:41:24 AM
When patients dropped out of treatment, most relapsed to drug abuse within one year, often returning to previous criminal patterns to support the addiction. Therefore, patients should be encouraged to remain in treatment".
Yes and when patients drop out of treatment and relapse to their old habits, I wonder where they'll decide to return to their previous criminal patterns to support their addiction.
Settle down Frank. No need to make personal attacks.
Are jennifer and mominator the same person? It's hard to seperate the stupidity that flows from these two.
[/quote]
I think that was very tame compared to some of the garbage you let flow here.
It was...but I am trying to change behavior. Which is like herding cats. Oh well.
7 arrested in drug sting along Evanston-Chicago border
Suspects sold on Howard Street, Evanston police say
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-evanston-both-jul17,0,6933244.story (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-evanston-both-jul17,0,6933244.story)
I wonder if this bust was near the Methadone clinic on Howard. If so, isn't this perfect timing?
Quote from: SILK on July 16, 2008, 12:45:29 PM
Ted,
the difference between the "disabled" methadone client and a person who consumes alcohol is that the former is afforded greater constitutional protection based on his "disabled" status Nonetheless, that doesn't mean municipalities are barred from enacting reasonable zoning ordinances
SILK:
It may have already been discussed, but a perusal of the Berwyn Code/Ordinances (on the Berwyn web-site) reveals a possible gap in the code re: this type of business; the closest applicable ordinance seems to regulate "hospitals"; my reading of the ordinance is that it might apply to a methadone clinic. It is interesting to note the stringency of the code re: businesses dispensing alcohol, and tattoo parlors. One would think that with all of the pharmacies in Berwyn, there might be some pertinent statutory language which might also apply to a methadone clinic (which after all is dispensing a controlled substance) but I found none. If there is a legal problem with denying a license to a methadone clinic, it may be with the Berwyn Code, which appears not to have contemplated such a situation.
http://www.amlegal.com/berwyn_il/ (http://www.amlegal.com/berwyn_il/)
eno
Quote1246.02 PURPOSES OF COMMERCIAL DISTRICTS.
The Commercial Districts regulated by this Zoning Code were established to protect and promote the public health, safety, comfort and general welfare and to protect the economic base of the City and the value of property. The general goals of such Districts include, but are not limited to, the following purposes:
(a) To promote the most desirable use of land in accordance with a well-considered plan so that adequate space is provided in appropriate locations for the various types of business uses, thereby protecting and strengthening the economic base of the City, and to place in separate districts those businesses which may create noise, odor, hazard or unsightliness or generate excessive traffic;
(b) To permit selected business uses in districts where adjacency to or inclusion in a residential area has sufficient elements of service or convenience to such areas to offset the disadvantage and to encourage the grouping in appropriate locations of compatible business uses which will tend to draw trade that is mutually interchangeable and so promote public convenience and business prosperity and contribute to the alleviation of traffic and pedestrian congestion; and
(c) To provide for the establishment of off-street parking facilities, permitted and required, so as to alleviate traffic congestion and so promote shopping convenience and business prosperity.
Just food for thought....fuel for the fire. Or not.
tgoddess:
Yeah; that's it! I missed it. Thank you.
Section "a" seems like the best bet, but I still believe the Berwyn Code needs to be "beefed up" in the "licensing" section with re: dispensing of controlled substances.
eno
Trying to prove the hazard part could be the problem.
Well hardy har har!!!
The Gang of Three says it will reconsider (and Phelan is nowhere to be found).
You don't say!
The meeting was AWESOME!!!
It was great to see so many citizens take the aldermen to task!!!
YES!!!
...now let's see how they vote....
Quote from: SILK on July 16, 2008, 07:26:26 PM
Well hardy har har!!!
The Gang of Three says it will reconsider (and Phelan is nowhere to be found).
You don't say!
was bobby there?
recap, please.
thanks
Bobby was there all right. Culd't get up o the podium fast enough to say he would reconsider his vote. And surprise surprise, the other two folowed suit None of the three could finish a sentence without a cascade of boos and catcalls raining down upon them
My question is, why did it take such a public outcry for them to reconsider? Why didn't they reconsider after the first vote? what was the rush to push the vote through council without day or ramos present?
Not one came up with a plausible rationale for their vote, and the public let them know it. At one point afterwards, Skryd looked close to tears and asked for a police escort.
And Liz Bonauro did herself absolutely no favors by taking the podium after she blew kisses and winked in the direction of Lovero, Chapman, and Skryd.
It was also interesting to watch Sal Sottile, the assistant director of the clinic, walk around the crowd unnoticed the whole time. He never got in front of the crowd or addressed the crowd.
Honestly, Liz Buonauro's brief performance was like watching a Saturday Night Life skit. Priceless.
"And Liz Bonauro did herself absolutely no favors by taking the podium after she blew kisses and winked in the direction of Lovero, Chapman, and Skryd."
I just threw up in my mouth reading that. Tasted good.
Bonster,
Words can't describe it. You should have been there.
Sal was not there. He had surgery yesterday and is still in the hospital. You ppl are so smart.
Quote from: SILK on July 16, 2008, 08:25:39 PM
Bonster,
Words can't describe it. You should have been there.
Naaa...I'm on Lovero and Chapman's side on this one. I
want a methadone clinic there. I couldn't think of a better location in Berwyn.
Quote from: FedUp on July 16, 2008, 08:26:58 PM
Sal was not there. He had surgery yesterday and is still in the hospital. You ppl are so smart.
A "You people" alert after ONE person posted it. You r so smart.
...And you would know this how? Spill your beans, girl.
I'd love to see everyone involved have the passion Shelley showed when speaking without the political grandstanding.
Quote from: Juliet on July 16, 2008, 08:46:09 PM
I'd love to see everyone involved have the passion Shelley showed when speaking without the political grandstanding.
Agreed Shelley is amazing. If Mark W. is not gonna run I say we ask Shelley to run. Independent and she truely has Berwyn residents best interest in mind, especiallly the youngest residents.
Shelley you did a nice job speaking. I really had to leave though when it became a chanting mob.
Shelly it was a pleasure to meet you. You did fabulous!!!! I was the one that introduced myself to you and asked you if you knew about the wrongful death lawsuit filed against the BB Clinic. Thank you for putting politics aside and speaking for the best interest of the residents of Berwyn.
It was so nice to see such a huge turnout of concerned Berwyn residents. I hope the turnout will be just a good for the City Council Meeting.
Ch2 interviewed the Mayor and Alderman Lovero, should be on at 10.
Thanks Terri, Tivo is set.
I'd love to see a Liz Bonauro interview. THAT would be required viewing. Talk about putting a nail in your own coffin.
Channel 2 news arrived about 7:20 pm, which was 80 minutes after the meeting began, and about 10 minutes after it had begun to disperse. The piece on Ch 2 made it look like 15 people were there, instead of the hundreds that attended.
We can not have this clinic come in here. Many people have been sued for what they believe in. We truely have to be one united community here.
that was terrible...they didn't even key the mayor. unless you're familiar you wouldn't have known that was him.
Quote from: Juliet on July 16, 2008, 10:09:53 PM
Channel 2 news arrived about 7:20 pm, which was 80 minutes after the meeting began, and about 10 minutes after it had begun to disperse. The piece on Ch 2 made it look like 15 people were there, instead of the hundreds that attended.
Shelley, great speech, you made valid points, and almost got across the point of not having
the issue become political.
No surprise though, the Mayor just couldn't resist !!
I think the crowd got their point across, and Tuesday nights cc meeting will show a change in the vote.
I think Michelle Skryd was up front honest, and I interpret her wanting to keep her job to mean her
passion for Berwyn and her constituents mean a lot to her. She did not say she would reconsider her, vote, she said
she heard the people and would change her vote on Tuesday.
I heard OC say he did not once see the words Methodone on any paper work going back to January, he just saw
the words substance abuse. Wouldn't you think he would have taken a second look into that?
Anyway, hopefully everyone walked away with a little more insight on this issue.
Was Mike Phelan there?
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 16, 2008, 10:25:07 PM
I think Michelle Skryd was up front honest, and I interpret her wanting to keep her job to mean her
passion for Berwyn and her constituents mean a lot to her.
Well, you'd be wrong about that.
Says you, like it counts, cause you said it.
No, it counts by way of her actions and statements as an alderman.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 16, 2008, 10:25:07 PM
Shelley, great speech, you made valid points, and almost got across the point of not having
the issue become political.
No surprise though, the Mayor just couldn't resist !!
It IS political.
Your people play "follow the leader" blindly, so when they screw the citizens they suddenly having trouble swallowing their own nuts.
I don't think you were there Bonster, so you should have NO preception of what went on,
how things were said, and felt by the crowds, Mayor , Aldermen/women and speakers. Your
riding on Silks preception of the evening.
My preception of what I thought Michelle Skryd meant is exactly that , my preception.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 16, 2008, 10:41:41 PM
I don't think you were there Bonster, so you should have NO preception of what went on,
I wasn't talking about what went on there tonight.
Patsy,
You're full of manure.
Skryd was trembling before sho got on stage. And once she gt on, she was booed mercilessly when he tried to offer up her bs excuses. Her quip about wanting to be reelected sent a buzz through the crowd. It was a Freudian slip that revealed her true intent, and EVERYBODY noticed. What a piece of baloney her speech was. She voted based entirely on what the zba recommended? Twice? she doesnlt have a mind of her own? If the zba told her to run down Grove in her birthday suit or jump off the top floor of Century station, would she do it?
Gimme a break. Try to bulshit someone else. There were hundreds of people there that all saw the same thing. Even your own daughter would have a hard time swallowing your bs.
Without question - for me the highlight of the evening was when Liz B. (the owner of the clinic) "tried" to address the crowd. Did she even last 1 minute up there? It looked like she was being consoled by 2 other people after she stepped down. Poor baby, that was so stressful - the crowd wouldn't let me speak. :'(
Again Silk, your preception. BTW, nice shirt!
Goodnight Boys. lol.
Its my PERCEPTION also.
Just love when you post. OC couldn't ask for a better endorsement. Maybe some of your people that were there videotaping can share with us the uncontroverted evidence.
p.s. I DO look good in pastels, don't I?
First of all, I'd like to thank Shelley, her comments were well thought out and spoken with passion. (BP was glowing with pride). Shelley made a request for this issue to remain nonpartisan. Shelley said methadone clinics should be housed in major medical complexes and we should appeal to our legislators to regulate methadone clinics not allowing them in residential neighborhoods. She is 100% correct. (This task will require lots of calls and letter writing, BT posters are you in?)
Other speakers/residents: 2 who reside in the DD, a mental health nurse, Dr. Mercado representing the doctors, and the manager of the surgeons office. Lz B., I really don't know what to say. Was I expecting a savvy business woman? Mominator's description was pretty much on target.
The Mayor asked the crowd to be polite and said the mixed use in a residential area is a bad move. He then asked the Alderman for a re-vote allowing Alderman Day and Ramos to cast their votes. An art teacher hoped to open a children's art school in that space, I'd like to hear more.
Alderman Lovero said he came to hear what the people want to say and we (the Alderman) weren't afforded the opportunity to hear. He was willing to stand here and take the abuse to hear (the people), proper notice wasn't given and must be fixed. (That's For Sure). He will weigh what he sees and will reconsider his vote, taking all positions into account and do justice.
Alderman Chapman said the ZBA approved and it was sent back so she had "no choice". This is where I was taken aback, Nona said and I quote, it is "not my responsibility" to notify, she herself was not informed and is a resident. "What is she to do?' I took that to mean she feels the ZBA should have notified residents. A resident shouted "You are insulting our intelligence". Alderman Chapman will reconsider her vote and fight the fight.
Alderman Skyrd was on the ZBA for four years before becoming Alderman. She has trust in the Zoning Board and she bases her votes on their recommendations. She did talk to Milt P. the lawyer on the zoning board to discuss the clinic. Alderman Skyrd will vote ney! Michelle was the only Alderman to commit to changing her vote. Thank you Alderman Skyrd.
My guess is there were 500 plus residents attending and I didn't hear anyone who was pro clinic. We will all pay very close attention to the City Council adgenda and packets in the future. And I thought I did.
Patsy was there for he whole thing, didn't know if Phelan was there or speak, and yet she wants to lecture on "perception?".
Good God!
I almost forgot, Alderman Chapman said there was a lease signed. Building owner met with tenants and the tenants were told a lease has NOT been signed.
I wanted to ask Alderman Chapman why she hadn't talked to her Council colleagues about the intentions and continual requests from the clinic to locate in the DD. The letter she wrote to the first ward residents says the clinic had been trying to find space in the DD for 2-3 years. Surely something worthy of discussion.
"p.s. I DO look good in pastels, don't I?"
silk... saw you lurking in the shadows of the crowd,
afraid to meet and engage.
Do you really go into a courtroom dressed like that?
Full re-cap in the AM, including my sit down conversation with the owner
of the clinic, and how OC let the situation become what we have now.
I can't wait to hear this...Some people voted no, some yes, and the people that don't want it there are at fault?
Well, before I get started I just thought that I would say I have really been entertained by all the comments on this forum.
I have spent all 35 of my 36 years here in Berwyn. My children are currently attending the same grade school that I did. I choose to have bring my children up in the neighborhood that I grew up in. And I have noticed that alot of the people that I grew up with came back to Berwyn for the same reason. Our children are safe, the schools are decent. and the people of the community care about others and the community itself. And yes "Nona" I love the area to. But personally, I do not feel that giving in to having a Methadone clinic in the neighborhood is showing any love to the community that you say you care so much about.
Berwyn has changed, and not all for the better, but lets not make it worse. I also happen to be client of the peds office on Grove. I choose it because it is close to my home, I can walk there if transportation is not available, and guess what I never had to worry about my children seeing people suffering from not having their next fix. Definately not a pretty sight. Hey Alderman/Alderwomen have you seen something like that? If so did you find it disgusting? Did you stand there and think I hope I never have to see this in my community? Did you feel sorry for the person or disgusted by him/her? I bet you would not have wanted your children subjected to that type of behavior. So if it is not okay for your families to see, why is it okay for the families of this community to be subjected to it?
For those who have asked if anyone has been around someone who was "hooked" on heroine, I have seen it and what it does. I have also seen the methadone clinics in action. Just take a look over at 19th and Cicero Ave. The North East corner. There is a clinic there. A few old friends of mine were on heroine, $20- $40 a day habits. They tried the clinics for help, but then there is a $50. chg for the methadone. Many times they could not come up with the $50 for the clinic, so back to streets they went. It is alot cheaper to buy it on the streets and it gives them the affect they are looking for opposed to the Methadone that just plays with the system. Many times they had the clinics meds and still were out on the streets needing money to get their next fix. I won't go in to all the details that surround the whole story, but many of us can figure out how they got their money.
What is my point, well basically, if a person is not getting the effect that they are used to from the Methadone, that they have grown accoustomed to from heroine, and they just spent there last 50 at the clinic where are they going to get money to get the feeling they are used to? Our back yards, garages, homes, our children, pan handling? People wake up, kids are easy targets, someone talks to them or sees that they are walking to and from school everyday. These kids have way to many expensive "toys" that a pawn shop or the next door neighbor will buy for $10,20, etc. Or better yet, the person who is looking for money finds a video game or Ipod, or cell fone and offers to cell it to the kids for $ 10, 20, etc. well now we have just supported someone's habit. Our children are buying expensive toys cheap from the guy/girl standing in front of the cigarette store, La Notte's, or even in front of the schools. And if this is not bad enough, what about the dealer who is watching the neighborhood for sales and then manages to get a child to try it. Hey, these kids are out there, yes they have all hopefully been told about drugs and alcohol, and that they are not to do them, but they are kids, kids like to do what they are told not to do. Statistics have showed that the majority of drug abusers had started in their early teens. Has everyone forgotten that Heritage and Freedom are filled with early teenagers?
Nona stood there tonight and stated the city would be sued, is money that important to her that she and the others are willing to risk the safety of our neighborhood and our children because she has so little faith in the legal system she is willing to roll over and play dead. Well if the standing of this community is left in her and the other 3's hands, we are %^&#$%.
How about this proposal, if or when god forbid (and yes I said god get over it before you start off on another tangent.) this happens, and the neighborhood goes to shit, and the robberies start, and everyones homes and lives are violated we place personal liability lawsuits on Nona and the other idiots that allowed/proposed this clinic to come to Berwyn. I don't believe that Nona's or anyone else's property is worth what the citizens of Berwyn could sue for. And believe this there is always an attorney that 1. would sue just for the money that could be made, and 2. would love to make a name for him/herself for the publicity that would come out of this.
As I stated early on in this reply, I have seen 1st hand what heroine can do. Yes people need help but by putting them on another drug they are not helping, just setting off a time bomb.
If Liz and her husband are so desperate to help addicts, why not contact the City of Chicago and see what is being done with the projects that were closed down off of 18th and Kostner. That was heroine and coke heaven, use the property to get the abusers off of it. As for Liz's reply that there are Berwyn residents going to the Evanston location, chances are they were residents of the projects that Chicago closed down. Send them to their old stomping grounds, don't bring it directly to our front doors.
As for these people being considered "Disabled" this is great, not only do we have people living in our country that don't belong here legally, now the government is sending drug abusers a disability check for $637. a month, a medical card and a link card. Well news flash, the medical card will pay for a rehabiliation stint. That is where they need to be to break the cycle. Not out buying "Legal" drugs to deal with the habit or standing in the grocery store on the 1st of the month trying to get a customer to give them cash for the money on the link card so that the customer can use the link card for food and the "disabled" can use the cash for more drugs.
Well I hope I have given others who are on the fence more to think about.
Thanks Terri, for the factual, recap on the meeting, and yes I am very proud of Shelley.
She knows what she wants, is a doer and has strong expectations for the community she
lives in.
Silk, your about as arrogant, and self righteous as the mayor, and that's my perception. I won't
apologize to you Mr. Lawyer for the miss spelling, sorry though to the other folks, and grateful for
all who accept my grammer and mis spellings on this board, even the grammer dicks. I guess
God only made lawyers perfect!
It was so peaceful while you were in "time out", I am sure you will return to that little corner, hopefully it will be permanently.
Yes, you do draw attention to yourself, I at first thought you were a tourist, fancy shirt, fake tan and
looks like your eating well these days, things must be good in Indiana.
Quote from: Terri on July 16, 2008, 11:25:26 PM
Alderman Chapman said the ZBA approved and it was sent back so she had "no choice".
Terri, thanks for the recap.
I find the above statement ironic, given the very next item on the city council agenda was an end run around the zoning board by Alderman CHapman to buld a fence on city property for a private back yard for a house on 34th street.
So, for Item J-1 (the methadone clinic), the reasoning was the zoning board approved it so the city council must approve it. For the very next item (Item J-2), the city council approved the building of a fence on city property to encompass a private yard and this was never sent to the zoning board because Alderman Chapman did not want the proposal to go to the zoning board.
Article in the Tribune:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-berwyn-methadone-clinic_bothjul17,0,519016.story
Planned methadone clinic protested
Hundreds rally against Berwyn's approval vote
By Joseph Ruzich | Special to the Chicago Tribune
July 17, 2008
Saying they feared an influx of drug addicts and crime, hundreds of protesters braved the heat in Berwyn on Wednesday evening to denounce plans to open a methadone clinic in a neighborhood that the city has struggled for years to revitalize. Mayor Michael O'Connor led the protest in a parking lot across from the clinic's planned home at 3242 Grove Ave. The City Council approved the facility last week on a 4-2 vote, though it is not clear when it might open.
The protest turned raucous as sign-carrying demonstrators booed and shouted down several speakers, including the clinic's owner and aldermen who approved the treatment facility. Numerous children dotted the crowd, and the clinic's feared negative effects on youngsters was a consistent theme. Many in the audience hoped to persuade the council to reverse itself at its meeting next week.
"Let's give the aldermen who voted 'yes' a chance to reconsider their vote," resident Shelley Titzer, 38, told the crowd. "A neighborhood with families and residences and shopping centers is not a place for a methadone clinic. . . . [They] belong in a major medical complex."
O'Connor and some residents complained that the new facility will attract a culture of drug users to the Depot District, which includes several restaurants and shops. Berwyn officials have been trying to revive the area for years.
"It's no secret that I feel this methadone clinic is a bad idea," said O'Connor, who was cheered when he said he is talking to a college teacher from Chicago about opening an art studio for children at the site.
Ald. Nona Chapman, who voted for the clinic in her 1st Ward, said that she opposed it, but that the city would face a lawsuit if the clinic were denied. Chapman and other officials said the city's Zoning Board of Appeals determined that the City Council was wrong to deny the clinic in an earlier vote in April and that there was no legal reason to do so because the planned clinic's home is zoned for a medical building.
"If I voted only with my heart and the passion for the area, I would have said 'No!' " Chapman said in a letter sent to 1st Ward residents last week. Chapman said she is reluctant to invite more lawsuits by denying this business. Chapman was one of those shouted down by the crowd as she tried to explain her decision.
Also booed off the stage was Elizabeth Buonauro, owner of the clinic.
"We've done everything legally," she said. "There are many addicts who do live in Berwyn."
That prompted chants of "We don't want it."
Ald. Robert Lovero (7th) indicated to the residents that he might reverse his position on the clinic, which he voted last week to approve.
"In my heart, I don't want a methadone clinic. I operated with my head," Lovero said. "Was my reasoning wrong? Possibly. Now I am more willing to reconsider my vote."
Earlier Wednesday, Buonauro said she would sue the city if the City Council reverses the decision at its next meeting.
Buonauro, who lives just two blocks from the clinic site, said the community is jumping to conclusions.
"I wouldn't do something to ruin my own community," she said. "The clinic won't just serve heroin addicts but people who have a dependency on prescription medication.
"Many are working-class people that live in the suburbs. Many people will be from the neighborhood."
Buonauro has operated a similar clinic in Evanston for six years and said there have not been any problems at that location. She only accepts patients with private insurance plans.
But Dr. Marc Freed, a pediatrician who has operated his practice for more than 20 years in the building, said he is contemplating moving.
"I've been getting a lot of complaints from patients," Freed said. "Some said they will drop me."
Methadone, a strictly regulated drug usually taken in liquid form, is required by law to be administered under the care of a health-care professional. Bill Waterbury, 54, was one of the few at Wednesday's event who supported the clinic.
"Addicts need a place to get treatment. They need a place to go," Waterbury said before the speakers took the stage. "I've known plenty of people in my life who have turned themselves around."
mr bear,
Not the time and pace, especially with my little niece, aunt and uncle next to me. But I do promise there WIll be a time and place. Maybe YOU should have came up and said hello Or at least waited a few minutes until my relatives were gone. Maybe followed me to Salerno's I was only there at the bar until 930 pm. Instead you scurry off lockstep with Orland Parkites. Nice try trying to twisyt this one also.
As far as Orland Patsy, well yes Patsy, I am an arogant son of a gun. The tan comes courtesy of five days in Aruba and two in Miami. The dress shirt is Brioni And yes, I eat very well. Always have. I could always lose a few pounds. Unfortunately for some, they can't replace their face (not you). I suggest you take he time to listen and follow you daughers path instead of blindly following the knuckleheads you do. But then again, if yesterday's fiasco didn't give you a clue, nothing will good thing there was plenty of people there to either verify or dispell our respective claims.
Ted,
Good thing you pointed out the inconsistency in Chapman's position. Sometimes, I wonder why she even bothers.
For instance, she claims that people in the crowd have no idea about the possible legal ramifications of a NO vote, despite the fact that no less than half dozen attorneys were present and the fact that TWO licensed Illinois atorneys voted NO. In other words, she's implying she has a greater grasp of the legal ramifications of such a vote than either Weiner or Erickson.
If that wasn't enough, she continued by stating that it was a ...... State (Illinois) matter. I don't think one needs to be an attorney to know that zoning is purely a local municipal (City) matter. And the lawsut she "feared" rises from the American with Disabilities Act, a FEDERAL STATUTE. Hello, is anyone home? This is the kind of gabage and misinformation you local politicos spew out in public, even after they hve done "due diligence" and had ample time to contemplate.
Speaking of "due diligence", isn't taking the desires of your constituency part and parcel of that?
The Methadone Quartet (well, maybe trio, considering the fact that Phelan was absent) wants us to believe they're RECONSIDERING based on their constituents desire and public outcry. Well, didn't they take their constituents desires into consideration when they voted on it the first time? How about the second time? One would think that elected officials ALWAYS vote with the desires of their constituents first and foremost in their minds. Or is it only when your chance for reelection is threatened do you take your constituents desires into consideration?
And if the Methadone Quartet does in fact change their vote, does that also change the likelihood of an expensive lawsuit?
Quote from: SILK on July 17, 2008, 07:15:27 AM
Ted,
Good thing you pointed out the inconsistency in Chapman's position.
Actually, thinking back to the city council meeting, I think one of the reasons Alderman Chapman gave for doing an end run around the zoning board on the fence was that the person who owned the property on 34th street was a lawyer and had threatened to sue the city if the city didn't immediately allow him to build the fence.
So, maybe Alderman Chapman is being consistent - voting to avoid lawsuits at all costs. If someone threatens to sue the city for not allowing him to build a fence on city property (even though the owner himself never took the matter to the zoning board), then do an end run around proper process and due procedure and an end run around the zoning board to avoid a law suit.
Ted
Yes, but her explanation was that she simply followed the zoning board on the methdone issue. And again, the question remains, if nona changes her vote, will it reduce the likelihood of a lawsuit?
Quote from: SILK on July 17, 2008, 07:29:22 AM
Speaking of "due diligence", isn't taking the desires of your constituency part and parcel of that?
The Methadone Quartet (well, maybe trio, considering the fact that Phelan was absent) wants us to believe they're RECONSIDERING based on their constituents desire and public outcry. Well, didn't they take their constituents desires into consideration when they voted on it the first time? How about the second time? One would think that elected officials ALWAYS vote with the desires of their constituents first and foremost in their minds. Or is it only when your chance for reelection is threatened do you take your constituents desires into consideration?
And if the Methadone Quartet does in fact change their vote, does that also change the likelihood of an expensive lawsuit?
silk,
you hit the nail right on the head. period.
i was in o'connor's office yesterday afternoon, and i correctly predicted the outcome of the meeting last night.
what were nona & bobby thinking???
they could slip this through council the
one night it could pass???
no one would notice??? that's pretty funny.
so o'connor stands up and does what he has to do, getting publicity to shame them into backing off their vote.
what other choice did he have???
this is
exhibit A of why i don't trust bobby and nona. they f*cked up, big time. their lack of judgment
is
obvious. now, they might change their position because .........
it would have torpedoed their political aspirations in the upcoming electionit seriously wants to make me puke.
mike
mike,
I don't know why, but I get this feeling that Nona led Bobby through this deal, as did many around me. The specifics I don't know, but that's the general feeling I get.
Nonetheless, bobby is way too smart for that. I ksu think his desire for political retribution overrode his common sense, and I don't think he correctly anticipated the public backlash.
Quote from: Mom of 2 / LLROB on July 17, 2008, 01:49:22 AM
As for these people being considered "Disabled" this is great, not only do we have people living in our country that don't belong here legally, now the government is sending drug abusers a disability check for $637. a month, a medical card and a link card. Well news flash, the medical card will pay for a rehabiliation stint. That is where they need to be to break the cycle. Not out buying "Legal" drugs to deal with the habit or standing in the grocery store on the 1st of the month trying to get a customer to give them cash for the money on the link card so that the customer can use the link card for food and the "disabled" can use the cash for more drugs.
Good post, Mom of 2.
Can someone please tell me exactly when (and how) substance abusers managed to achieve the status of "disabled" -- and become entitled to taxpayers money? Have to wonder how a legitimately disabled person feels about this -- the one who did not disable themselves by their
choice to use and abuse alcohol and/or narcotics/prescription drugs.
Quote from: Bear on July 16, 2008, 11:52:47 PM
Full re-cap in the AM, including my sit down conversation with the owner
of the clinic, and how OC let the situation become what we have now.
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 17, 2008, 12:28:22 AM
I can't wait to hear this...Some people voted no, some yes, and the people that don't want it there are at fault?
No, Brian.
Bear is compiling all email entries from the DCoB chickens afraid to post here (anymore), then he can post their spin. :)
Well bon, they're all on an email address book, Lovero, Chapman, AND Skryd included. If they're not spending time babbling about a "do nothing" alderman and mispronouncing his name, they're instructing one of their more COHERENT minions to monitor a certain blog.
Don't worry though, they wer out in full force yesterday. Hope the video camera caught the carnage.
Quote from: Terri on July 16, 2008, 11:25:26 PM
This is where I was taken aback, Nona said and I quote, it is "not my responsibility" to notify, she herself was not informed and is a resident.
Wow, how predictable.
I once questioned Nona's responsiveness to her residents (after someone here complained she doesn't read her emails).
I asked her about something Felix Greco stated with regards to C-M form of government and at-large elections, and how you wouldn't be able to ask your alderman for help with _____ anymore. Her response was "that's not our responsibility!"
Does anyone know if there will be different options come election time to vote for? I imagine that yesterdays meeting might spark alot of people to consider running against the ones who are running to keep their aldermanic seats.
Bon,
Remember, this is the same alderman (with all her legal acumen) who publicy states that a LOCAL ordinance is a STATE matter.
Quote from: Clean Sweep on July 17, 2008, 08:50:21 AM
Does anyone know if there will be different options come election time to vote for? I imagine that yesterdays meeting might spark alot of people to consider running against the ones who are running to keep their aldermanic seats.
I don't think you need to worry about that.
Quote from: A.Malina on July 16, 2008, 11:24:41 PM
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 16, 2008, 10:25:07 PM
Was Mike Phelan there?
no.
I thought I saw him lurking in the crowd, but maybe it was a guy who looked like him
My name is Shana Marshall and I own the property at 34th and Wisconsin and my husband IS an attorney and at NO time did we EVER threaten to sue the city. If Nona said, "the person who owned the property on 34th street was a lawyer and had threatened to sue the city if the city didn't immediately allow him to build the fence," she was outright LYING!
The reason we gave up with the zoning board process was because it required us to pay $400 to put an ad in the Berwyn Gazette communicating our intentions. I have NEVER seen the Berwyn Gazette and refused to pay $$$$ for something so inane. This was over a year ago. Back in April of this year, I ran into Nona's husband while out walking with my kids. I told him about how frustrating it was to have three young children and a dog and not be allowed to put a fence up. He was the one who told me to contact his wife, which I then did. She immediately went to work and got our fence approved within a matter of weeks.
Quote from: sktlbaby on July 17, 2008, 09:50:12 AM
My name is Shana Marshall and I own the property at 34th and Wisconsin and my husband IS an attorney and at NO time did we EVER threaten to sue the city. If Nona said, "the person who owned the property on 34th street was a lawyer and had threatened to sue the city if the city didn't immediately allow him to build the fence," she was outright LYING!
The reason we gave up with the zoning board process was because it required us to pay $400 to put an ad in the Berwyn Gazette communicating our intentions. I have NEVER seen the Berwyn Gazette and refused to pay $$$$ for something so inane. This was over a year ago. Back in April of this year, I ran into Nona's husband while out walking with my kids. I told him about how frustrating it was to have three young children and a dog and not be allowed to put a fence up. He was the one who told me to contact his wife, which I then did. She immediately went to work and got our fence approved within a matter of weeks.
Did you thank Nona for the help you were given?
Gee, I guess I should.
What #1 did was typical of what I have seen on more than one occasion with similar corner lot situations, all the cases were heard (and approved) by council to spare the homeowners the
expense of the zoning route. Rightfully so I might add.
Ms Marshall,
why would YOU be required to pay for publication of notice? And why only in the gazette? Typically, publication of notice encompasses placing an ad in a local publication Xxx amount of times consecutively. It usually isn't your financial burden.
What type of work does your husband do?
So what you're saying bear is that certain members of city council have unfettered discretion to determine which matters go before the zoning board and which don't?
Silk, if you request the variance, you pay for the public notice. It doesn't have to be the Gazette, but the Gazette is the least expensive option.
Quote from: dukesdad on July 17, 2008, 10:14:53 AM
It doesn't have to be the Gazette, but the Gazette is the least expensive option.
I thought it was because the Gazette is the least read/believable publication.
dukesdad,
You're right braincramp there. I was thinking of certain other legal notices.
Nonetheless, $400.00 seems outrageous.
Quote from: SILK on July 17, 2008, 10:12:07 AM
So what you're saying bear is that certain members of city council have unfettered discretion to determine which matters go before the zoning board and which don't?
Aldermen are our area representatives. What is wrong with asking the alderman for guidance with a simple fence installation?
Apparently the problem is that she doesn't represent/respond to much.
I guess you have to go thru her husband. ;D
Quote from: Bonster on July 17, 2008, 10:44:05 AM
Apparently the problem is that she doesn't represent/respond to much.
I guess you have to go thru her husband. ;D
Yep, the lines of communication are not as clear as we would like to think.
Can't blame them. If I was alderman they'd have to bribe me for everything.
dukesdad,
the problem is you're building on city property and circumventing the normal legal process that would be required of all other residents. And its done so at the discretion of aldermen/council in an unfettered manner.
Quote from: Bonster on July 17, 2008, 10:51:46 AM
Can't blame them. If I was alderman they'd have to bribe me for everything.
Nice, the bribes would be on a sliding scale right. The bigger the project the bigger the ...
Quotedukesdad,
the problem is you're building on city property and circumventing the normal legal process that would be required of all other residents. And its done so at the discretion of aldermen/council in an unfettered manner.
Never questioned that. Just the publication requirements and who pays. You sometimes seem to look for an argument where there is none.
I think zoning is an oft misunderstood process and the path to granting variances at city council is not always consistent.
In my own experience in 2004, we had plans to add an addition to our home which the then building director considered in need of a variance (stating that our existing home was less than 10% from the lot line and, although obviously grandfathered, could not be added onto without variance). I contended that, indeed, my lot is 2 lots (for which I pay tax bills on 2 separate pins) and that the house and proposed addition are in fact >10% from that pin's lot line.
In my case, the building department was the one who put the request on the city council agenda which was then approved. Not sure if my then alderman supported/influenced that process or not.
At one point, my wife and I were criticized for 'circumventing' the appeals process.
Quote from: Berwyntruth on October 10, 2005, 09:58:43 PM
Shelley,
Now, Now let's be truthful. How did you get those permits and by pass the zoning board. Do I have to post the communication on this site and the ordinance pertaining to your project? Oh.. thats right you didn't have time to go to the zoning board so you went to your Alderman and the building director to try and cut corners. How's that for civic pride, can the B.S. about your plans to better this community.
Stay tuned for more from ...
The Truth ;D
The truth of the matter (ironic, I know), is that, in fact, we simply stated our case and got the agenda item before the council. To this day, I contend a variance was unnecessary, but if the council had voted to disallow our project, I would have then appealed to the ZBA.
So, in short, the appeals process (paying ~$400 for notice in the Gazette is asinine imho), is not exactly consistent. Ms. Marshall seems to have done the right thing. Indeed, it is the alderpeople (council) who have the say in granting variances or not. The ZBA only reviews and recommends. At least, that's how I understand the process to work.
Bringing this back to the current topic, these alderpeople surely know better than to point the finger at the ZBA. Sure, a unanimous vote on the ZBA (following what they thought to be legally prudent) would be good support for the alderpeoples' votes. But in the end, it is each aderperson's vote to approve/deny.
java,
correct me if I'm wrong, but what you were seeking was a variance, which goes to the zba only if city council denies the initial aplication. The methadone clinic sought a business license which was denied by the city clerk and the mattter then went to city council, whereit was denied, and then to the zba on appeal where an advisory opinion was rendered to approve It was then remnaded to city council to vote based on the recommendation.
The problem with the scenario in the 34th and wisconsin matter is that notice appears not to have been appropriately given, as is required in all other zoning matters.
dukesdad,
I apologize, my earlier comment was in response to Rizzo's post, not yours.
It is the Zoning Board of APPEALS, right? It is my understanding that a homeowner can ask the Building Department for a Zoning Variance and the City Council can grant it or deny it and THEN the case would go in front of the ZBA. If Coucil or the Building Deparment allows grants the variance (that are cut and dried w/ no real controversy like a fence on a corner lot??) then the homeowner doesn't need to APPEAL the decision. Saves the homeowner the expense and reduces frivolous cases going to the Zoning Board of APPEALS. The problem is when alderman act like they are doing the homeowners a big favor by just following the process. At least that is my understanding, I might be wrong.
The Marshal's seem to be taking issue with any statements by Nona Chapman that they threatened to sue the city.
I also think this is all about passing the buck. If the alderman who voted yes can shift the public outrage to the ZBA, that lets them off the hook. They already tried shifting that to O'Connor. I think the smart (and mature, noble) thing to do is just simply say "I'll change my vote. I misjudged this situation".
If O'Connor would stop focusing on how to use the situation to his political benefit and if Lovero, etc. would stop trying to shift the blame and just admit misjudgement, then maybe they could both focus on what RESIDENTS want and that is legislation to protect Berwyn and other communities from this situation in the future. Egos on both sides are just too big for that, I fear. I think it will, sadly, be up to residents to continue this fight. We'll need to organize and go above the heads of the "leaders" to state level legislators to write a new law limiting methadone clinics to Industrial Parks or Major Hospital Campuses. We'd be able to unite with many other communities (power in numbers). If only our leaders, with experience and relationships w/ legislators, would put aside who is going to get credit/blame, would do this. They are getting paid to represent us, afterall. I HOPE Lovero AND O'Connor made some phone calls today.
One last thing, anyone who goes from "there was nothing in the paperwork from the ZBA/clinic that mentioned methodone" to "I didn't know it was a methadone clinic" is lying. EVERYONE knew this was a methadone clinic. They knew in April and they knew in June. Stop with the excuses, admit you misjudged and let's move on.
Forgot to add that the clinci sought a conditional use permit when the matter was brought before city council.
Quote from: SILK on July 17, 2008, 11:39:51 AM
java,
correct me if I'm wrong, but what you were seeking was a variance, which goes to the zba only if city council denies the initial aplication. The methadone clinic sought a business license which was denied by the city clerk and the mattter then went to city council, whereit was denied, and then to the zba on appeal where an advisory opinion was rendered to approve It was then remnaded to city council to vote based on the recommendation.
The problem with the scenario in the 34th and wisconsin matter is that notice appears not to have been appropriately given, as is required in all other zoning matters.
dukesdad,
I apologize, my earlier comment was in response to Rizzo's post, not yours.
SILK,
You're probably right. My (admittedly longwinded) point, was that, although each case has unique circumstances, it is the Council who has the say, not the ZBA. I was taking exception to any of the Alderpeople pointing fingers at the ZBA, rather than just saying either 1-Yes, I voted this way and I stand behind it. or 2-No, I f'd up and I now understand why I should change my vote. Then each of them should have sat down. I agree it wasn't pretty. But it was public accountability, which is healthy, imo.
Quote from: Shelley on July 17, 2008, 11:42:54 AM
It is the Zoning Board of APPEALS, right? It is my understanding that a homeowner can ask the Building Department for a Zoning Variance and the City Council can grant it or deny it and THEN the case would go in front of the ZBA.
So...the Zoning Board of APPEALS is made up of what...experts on -
land use,
litigation,
sympathy,
all of the above,
other?
(Oh NO! Not the Q word (qualifications).)
You're 100 percent correct At best, the zba renders an advisory opinion The city council vote is what's binding. CC had two bites the apple the Methaodne Quartet voted yay in unison TWICE. Now they (at least 3 of 4) tell us they ill reconsider. What change in circumstances occurred between their last collective yay vote and yesterday?
Answer; Yesterday they were reminded how many votes this could possibly cost them.
Disingenius to point the finger at the zba.
I would have had more respect for them if they stood by their initial votes, especially since they had all apparently done due diligence, instead of this frantci attempt to rescue their political lives.
What change in circumstances occurred between their last collective yay vote and yesterday?
Answer: Yesterday they were reminded how many votes this could possibly cost them.
Got that right.
I would have had more respect for them if they stood by their initial votes, especially since they had all apparently done due diligence, instead of this frantic attempt to rescue their political lives.
required reading...but...let's see who actually changes their votes... ;)
shelley,
my point was that notice must be given to affected parties when a variance is sought.
Shelly - I appreciate your energy on this issue but respectfully you are wrong on a few points here.
1 Mike O'Connor - our Mayor - organized yesterday's event, picked the time, location, put a notice right away on the city's web site, and got 500 people to show up and as a result of community pressure on the aldermen they announced they would flip their votes. His people leafletted almost every house in the city with the time, place, location of the meeitng and the phone #s of the aldermen that voted for this. I am sorry to burst your bubble but Berwyn Families was maybe 2% of the population that showed up to yesterday's meeting. Michelle Skryd's 200 phone calls were not generated becasuse of a soccer mom's email list. O'Connor did a GOOD THING and probably stopped this thing dead in its tracks, something Nona as alderwoman should have done herself.
2. If Lovero and Nona had their way this would be a done deal and NONE OF THE COMMUNITY would have known about it so whether you can admit it or not, if it weren't for O'Connor this thing would be a DONE DEAL. PERIOD. And Yes the Mayor should be THANKED for alerting everyone and taking a bold stand to stop it. That WAS the right thing to do.
He should get credit for stopping this. Politics imbues government. It just so happens he has been consistently along with Weiner and Erickson on the right side on this issue.
Thanks Mike O'Connor. At least someone organized a rally to stop this.
Also the only people that played politics with BERWYN on this issue are those that just followed NONA on this vote because it is her ward - THAT IS POLITICS, not organizing a community meeting to stop a travesty. these people will vote against the Mayyor just because they are lemmings with one another. THAT IS POLITICS OVER PUBLIC INTEREST.
3. It was political for Lovero fo blindly follow his political buddy Nona over the proverbial cliff even if it was against the public interest. THAT is political.
4. The original zoning board of appeal minutes from BEFORE April (BEFORE ANY CITY COUNCIL MEETING EVER OCCURRED) made no mention of Methadone. Nada, none, zip. Have you actually read these minutes ? The only person who knew then about the methadone was Nona Chapman at the originla zoning meeting since she had already been talking to the Bonuaro clinc then for over a year and a half as she said yesterday.
HOWEVER the council members all only learned about the Methadone component just before the April city council meeting in which O'Connor along with Weiner, Ramos, Day, and Erickson voted NO breaking a tie vote.
Politics have EVERYTHING to do with why Lovero, Phelan, and Skryd blindly followed Nona on this issue - it was HER ward and she admitted yeesterday to negotiating with the clinic owner for two yerars without any input from the BDC or Mayor's office and she certainly didn't tell her constiutents or have a meeting on it herself.
Did you iknow Nona never consulted the BDC Exec Director on this issue when she consulted with the owner behind the community's back ?
SO THANK YOU MR. MAYOR O"CONNOR FOR BEING POLITICAL in a way that is in the public interest and doing the RIGHT THING and stopping this.
O'Connor is a good person who is a good watchdog for the public interest and sometimes it pisses off even his old friends because he is willing to upset old friends, and sometimes be politically hurt, to do what he thinks is right - like laying off these public works department folks, or other examples including people that we both probably know.
I think it is precisely that he has been willing to piss some old friends off, to do what he really thinks is right, that shows how much he puts public above politics.
He is not perfect but his heart is in the right place and he has common sense and he is a hell ot a lot better off for the city than the old gang was and Lovero would be.
O'Connor did the right this by blowing the whistle on this situation and being the only elected official to call attention to it publicly in a big way.
Sorry - I like your energy - but even you're not right 100% of the time and sometimes credit is due where it is due.
Thanks
Kick Out the Jams
Quote from: sktlbaby on July 17, 2008, 09:50:12 AM
My name is Shana Marshall and I own the property at 34th and Wisconsin and my husband IS an attorney and at NO time did we EVER threaten to sue the city. If Nona said, "the person who owned the property on 34th street was a lawyer and had threatened to sue the city if the city didn't immediately allow him to build the fence," she was outright LYING!
The reason we gave up with the zoning board process was because it required us to pay $400 to put an ad in the Berwyn Gazette communicating our intentions. I have NEVER seen the Berwyn Gazette and refused to pay $$$$ for something so inane. This was over a year ago. Back in April of this year, I ran into Nona's husband while out walking with my kids. I told him about how frustrating it was to have three young children and a dog and not be allowed to put a fence up. He was the one who told me to contact his wife, which I then did. She immediately went to work and got our fence approved within a matter of weeks.
My understanding from what I heard in the city council meeting was this (Terri or OPS can add if they heard something different):
In April of 2007, the owners of the property on 34th street requested a permit to build a fence. The owners were told they would have to go to the Zoning Board of Appeals because the property on which they wanted to build part of the fence was actually city property, not their private property.
The owners were told that they would have to take out an adverstisement in a newspaper and they decided not to. One year later, they spoke to Alderman Chapman about it and Alderman Chapman brought it up to the city council, which voted to allow the building of the fence on city property given that the owners signed a contract/agreement that the owners would allow city workers (including police officers) access to the city property.
In the city council meeting, Alderman Chapman alleged that the owners were told that they had to buy an ad in the BERWYN BANNER (Alderman Chapman did NOT say Berwyn Gazette) and that the owners balked at buying an advertisement in the Berwyn Banner.
Mayor O'Connor immediately challenged Alderman Chapman's statement, saying he NEVER told the owners they had to buy an advertisement in the Berwyn Banner. The Mayor then asked City Clerk Tom Pavlik who was the entity that would request that the owners buy advertisdement. Pavlik replied that it would probably be the zoning board of appeals.
The Mayor and Alderman Chapman then continued to go at each other for several minutes, with Alderman Chapman saying the property owners did not want to buy an ad in the Berwyn Banner or give campaign contributions to Mayor O'Connor. Mayor O'Connor vehemently denied that he asked the property owners to buy an ad in the berwyn Banner or that he asked for a campaign contribution.
When the question came up about why this should not go before the ZBA first (since it involved city property), Alderman Chapman stated that the owner of the property was a lawyer and that he might sue the city.
That is what I remember happening Tuesday night at the city council meeting. If OPS, Terri or anyone else there wants to add something or have a different recollection, they could add on to what I posted.
Ted
Quote from: Kick Out The Jams on July 17, 2008, 12:46:02 PMPolitics have EVERYTHING to do with why Lovero, Phelan, and Skryd blindly followed Nona on this issue - it was HER ward and she admitted yeesterday to negotiating with the clinic owner for two yerars without any input from the BDC or Mayor's office and she certainly didn't tell her constiutents or have a meeting on it herself.
Did you iknow Nona never consulted the BDC Exec Director on this issue when she consulted with the owner behind the community's back ?
SO THANK YOU MR. MAYOR O"CONNOR FOR BEING POLITICAL in a way that is in the public interest and doing the RIGHT THING and stopping this.
Right on KOTJ. As I told Berwyn Patsy last night, this IS political. Always was from the outset.
I also think Shelley understands this and is playing (rightfully so) the Neutral Card.
Ted,
The owners had to request a zoning variance. What they're asking for is an easement over city property. This matter goes before city council. If cc denies the request, THEN it goes to zba. There has to be an initial level of the pocess BEFORE it gets to the appellate level.
At least that's my undertsanding. I could be wrong.
The issue then becomes, is notice required when city council votes on a variance request?
Ted,
I think you got it about right.
I was told by Nona that the Gazette was really a vehicle for the Mayor to voice his opinions etc. She also said it was eventually shut down because it was discovered that the mayor was using campaign funds to keep it running. Who knows who to believe at this point.
When the question came up about why this should not go before the ZBA first (since it involved city property), Alderman Chapman stated that the owner of the property was a lawyer and that he might sue the city.
heh...apropos
sktlbaby - Are you sure it was the Gazette? Cuz that's a vehicle for Nona's folks, actually (Mario's Mark).
Quote from: Bonster on July 17, 2008, 01:44:42 PM
sktlbaby - Are you sure it was the Gazette? Cuz that's a vehicle for Nona's folks, actually (Mario's Mark).
Probably meant the Banner, instead, as Ted recalls here: http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=5785.msg99677#msg99677 (http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=5785.msg99677#msg99677)
rIGHT...but...that's #1. and she can't be trusted.
I'm more willing to believe the Building Dept/ZBA told her the Gazette.
I have the paperwork in front of me...
"Publication fee of $400.00 paid direct to Berwyn Gazette"
Quote from: Kick Out The Jams on July 17, 2008, 12:46:02 PM
Shelly - I appreciate your energy on this issue but respectfully you are wrong on a few points here.
1 Mike O'Connor - our Mayor - organized yesterday's event, picked the time, location, put a notice right away on the city's web site, and got 500 people to show up and as a result of community pressure on the aldermen they announced they would flip their votes. His people leafletted almost every house in the city with the time, place, location of the meeitng and the phone #s of the aldermen that voted for this. I am sorry to burst your bubble but Berwyn Families was maybe 2% of the population that showed up to yesterday's meeting. Michelle Skryd's 200 phone calls were not generated becasuse of a soccer mom's email list. O'Connor did a GOOD THING and probably stopped this thing dead in its tracks, something Nona as alderwoman should have done herself.
2. If Lovero and Nona had their way this would be a done deal and NONE OF THE COMMUNITY would have known about it so whether you can admit it or not, if it weren't for O'Connor this thing would be a DONE DEAL. PERIOD. And Yes the Mayor should be THANKED for alerting everyone and taking a bold stand to stop it. That WAS the right thing to do.
He should get credit for stopping this. Politics imbues government. It just so happens he has been consistently along with Weiner and Erickson on the right side on this issue.
Thanks Mike O'Connor. At least someone organized a rally to stop this.
Also the only people that played politics with BERWYN on this issue are those that just followed NONA on this vote because it is her ward - THAT IS POLITICS, not organizing a community meeting to stop a travesty. these people will vote against the Mayyor just because they are lemmings with one another. THAT IS POLITICS OVER PUBLIC INTEREST.
3. It was political for Lovero fo blindly follow his political buddy Nona over the proverbial cliff even if it was against the public interest. THAT is political.
4. The original zoning board of appeal minutes from BEFORE April (BEFORE ANY CITY COUNCIL MEETING EVER OCCURRED) made no mention of Methadone. Nada, none, zip. Have you actually read these minutes ? The only person who knew then about the methadone was Nona Chapman at the originla zoning meeting since she had already been talking to the Bonuaro clinc then for over a year and a half as she said yesterday.
HOWEVER the council members all only learned about the Methadone component just before the April city council meeting in which O'Connor along with Weiner, Ramos, Day, and Erickson voted NO breaking a tie vote.
Politics have EVERYTHING to do with why Lovero, Phelan, and Skryd blindly followed Nona on this issue - it was HER ward and she admitted yeesterday to negotiating with the clinic owner for two yerars without any input from the BDC or Mayor's office and she certainly didn't tell her constiutents or have a meeting on it herself.
Did you iknow Nona never consulted the BDC Exec Director on this issue when she consulted with the owner behind the community's back ?
SO THANK YOU MR. MAYOR O"CONNOR FOR BEING POLITICAL in a way that is in the public interest and doing the RIGHT THING and stopping this.
O'Connor is a good person who is a good watchdog for the public interest and sometimes it pisses off even his old friends because he is willing to upset old friends, and sometimes be politically hurt, to do what he thinks is right - like laying off these public works department folks, or other examples including people that we both probably know.
I think it is precisely that he has been willing to piss some old friends off, to do what he really thinks is right, that shows how much he puts public above politics.
He is not perfect but his heart is in the right place and he has common sense and he is a hell ot a lot better off for the city than the old gang was and Lovero would be.
O'Connor did the right this by blowing the whistle on this situation and being the only elected official to call attention to it publicly in a big way.
Sorry - I like your energy - but even you're not right 100% of the time and sometimes credit is due where it is due.
Thanks
Kick Out the Jams
please continue to post, you took the words right out of my mouth.
analysis was spot on.
mike
Quote from: Kick Out The Jams on July 17, 2008, 12:46:02 PM
Shelly - I appreciate your energy on this issue but respectfully you are wrong on a few points here.
1 Mike O'Connor - our Mayor - organized yesterday's event, picked the time, location, put a notice right away on the city's web site, and got 500 people to show up and as a result of community pressure on the aldermen they announced they would flip their votes. His people leafletted almost every house in the city with the time, place, location of the meeitng and the phone #s of the aldermen that voted for this. I am sorry to burst your bubble but Berwyn Families was maybe 2% of the population that showed up to yesterday's meeting. Michelle Skryd's 200 phone calls were not generated becasuse of a soccer mom's email list. O'Connor did a GOOD THING and probably stopped this thing dead in its tracks, something Nona as alderwoman should have done herself.
2. If Lovero and Nona had their way this would be a done deal and NONE OF THE COMMUNITY would have known about it so whether you can admit it or not, if it weren't for O'Connor this thing would be a DONE DEAL. PERIOD. And Yes the Mayor should be THANKED for alerting everyone and taking a bold stand to stop it. That WAS the right thing to do.
He should get credit for stopping this. Politics imbues government. It just so happens he has been consistently along with Weiner and Erickson on the right side on this issue.
Thanks Mike O'Connor. At least someone organized a rally to stop this.
Also the only people that played politics with BERWYN on this issue are those that just followed NONA on this vote because it is her ward - THAT IS POLITICS, not organizing a community meeting to stop a travesty. these people will vote against the Mayyor just because they are lemmings with one another. THAT IS POLITICS OVER PUBLIC INTEREST.
3. It was political for Lovero fo blindly follow his political buddy Nona over the proverbial cliff even if it was against the public interest. THAT is political.
4. The original zoning board of appeal minutes from BEFORE April (BEFORE ANY CITY COUNCIL MEETING EVER OCCURRED) made no mention of Methadone. Nada, none, zip. Have you actually read these minutes ? The only person who knew then about the methadone was Nona Chapman at the originla zoning meeting since she had already been talking to the Bonuaro clinc then for over a year and a half as she said yesterday.
HOWEVER the council members all only learned about the Methadone component just before the April city council meeting in which O'Connor along with Weiner, Ramos, Day, and Erickson voted NO breaking a tie vote.
Politics have EVERYTHING to do with why Lovero, Phelan, and Skryd blindly followed Nona on this issue - it was HER ward and she admitted yeesterday to negotiating with the clinic owner for two yerars without any input from the BDC or Mayor's office and she certainly didn't tell her constiutents or have a meeting on it herself.
Did you iknow Nona never consulted the BDC Exec Director on this issue when she consulted with the owner behind the community's back ?
SO THANK YOU MR. MAYOR O"CONNOR FOR BEING POLITICAL in a way that is in the public interest and doing the RIGHT THING and stopping this.
O'Connor is a good person who is a good watchdog for the public interest and sometimes it pisses off even his old friends because he is willing to upset old friends, and sometimes be politically hurt, to do what he thinks is right - like laying off these public works department folks, or other examples including people that we both probably know.
I think it is precisely that he has been willing to piss some old friends off, to do what he really thinks is right, that shows how much he puts public above politics.
He is not perfect but his heart is in the right place and he has common sense and he is a hell ot a lot better off for the city than the old gang was and Lovero would be.
O'Connor did the right this by blowing the whistle on this situation and being the only elected official to call attention to it publicly in a big way.
Sorry - I like your energy - but even you're not right 100% of the time and sometimes credit is due where it is due.
Thanks
Kick Out the Jams
1. I agree. I never mentioned the Berwyn families or the "soccer moms". This was organized by O'Connor and I think the meeting was a good move, both politically and for the community.
2. I somewhat agree, though I think the discussion here on BTF after that meeting had more to do with the public outcry. That discussion resulted in an e-mail discussion (which I had very little to do with so your not "bursting my bubble") of about 100 people that wouldn't know the mayor or Lovero if they were sitting next to them at the pool. O'Connor did a great job of organizing and riding that initial momentum. Again, I think he did the right thing by calling the meeting and supporting community efforts to organize around this issue.
3. I agree.
4. Yes, I have read the minutes/communications. I agree nowhere is the word methadone mentioned. In your post, you agree that, even though the word methadone is not in the information, that everyone on city council knew that it was a methadone clinic. Anyone who says, "the paperwork I read didn't mention methadone" as an excuse for their vote is trying to tell you they didn't know they were voting for/against a methadone clinic. I think we agree: that would be a lie. Also, in all the "due diligence" that everyone is talking about, it can't be that hard to google "Bobby Bounauro" and find out exactly what they are talking about.
My original post is meant to encourage ALL involved to focus on 1. fighting any lawsuit against the city. 2. Writing a new law/ordinance or changing existing laws at the state level to protect our community and others against this same situation in the future. Last night is over and I hope today the Mayor and the aldermen, specifically Lovero, are meeting about methadone clinics not about campaign opportunities or damage control. I didn't mean to imply that the meeting last night wasn't necessary or good for our community. I do give credit to O'Connor for that.
I never said this issue wasn't political, just that it shouldn't be IMHO, especially once alderpeople change their votes and would...by those votes...seemingly commit to stopping this clinic.
Planned methadone clinic protested (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-berwyn-methadone-clinic_bothjul17,0,519016.story)
Hundreds rally against Berwyn's approval vote
By Joseph Ruzich | Special to the Chicago Tribune
July 17, 2008 [/size]
Saying they feared an influx of drug addicts and crime, hundreds of protesters braved the heat in Berwyn on Wednesday evening to denounce plans to open a methadone clinic in a neighborhood that the city has struggled for years to revitalize.
Mayor Michael O'Connor led the protest in a parking lot across from the clinic's planned home at 3242 Grove Ave. The City Council approved the facility last week on a 4-2 vote, though it is not clear when it might open.
The protest turned raucous as sign-carrying demonstrators booed and shouted down several speakers, including the clinic's owner and aldermen who approved the treatment facility. Numerous children dotted the crowd, and the clinic's feared negative effects on youngsters was a consistent theme.
Many in the audience hoped to persuade the council to reverse itself at its meeting next week.
"Let's give the aldermen who voted 'yes' a chance to reconsider their vote," resident Shelley Titzer, 38, told the crowd. "A neighborhood with families and residences and shopping centers is not a place for a methadone clinic. . . . [They] belong in a major medical complex."
O'Connor and some residents complained that the new facility will attract a culture of drug users to the Depot District, which includes several restaurants and shops. Berwyn officials have been trying to revive the area for years.
"It's no secret that I feel this methadone clinic is a bad idea," said O'Connor, who was cheered when he said he is talking to a college teacher from Chicago about opening an art studio for children at the site.
Ald. Nona Chapman, who voted for the clinic in her 1st Ward, said that she opposed it, but that the city would face a lawsuit if the clinic were denied. Chapman and other officials said the city's Zoning Board of Appeals determined that the City Council was wrong to deny the clinic in an earlier vote in April and that there was no legal reason to do so because the planned clinic's home is zoned for a medical building.
"If I voted only with my heart and the passion for the area, I would have said 'No!' " Chapman said in a letter sent to 1st Ward residents last week. Chapman said she is reluctant to invite more lawsuits by denying this business.
Chapman was one of those shouted down by the crowd as she tried to explain her decision.
Also booed off the stage was Elizabeth Buonauro, owner of the clinic.
"We've done everything legally," she said. "There are many addicts who do live in Berwyn."
That prompted chants of "We don't want it."
Ald. Robert Lovero (7th) indicated to the residents that he might reverse his position on the clinic, which he voted last week to approve.
"In my heart, I don't want a methadone clinic. I operated with my head," Lovero said. "Was my reasoning wrong? Possibly. Now I am more willing to reconsider my vote."
Earlier Wednesday, Buonauro said she would sue the city if the City Council reverses the decision at its next meeting.
Buonauro, who lives just two blocks from the clinic site, said the community is jumping to conclusions.
"I wouldn't do something to ruin my own community," she said. "The clinic won't just serve heroin addicts but people who have a dependency on prescription medication.
"Many are working-class people that live in the suburbs. Many people will be from the neighborhood."
Buonauro has operated a similar clinic in Evanston for six years and said there have not been any problems at that location. She only accepts patients with private insurance plans.
But Dr. Marc Freed, a pediatrician who has operated his practice for more than 20 years in the building, said he is contemplating moving.
"I've been getting a lot of complaints from patients," Freed said. "Some said they will drop me."
Methadone, a strictly regulated drug usually taken in liquid form, is required by law to be administered under the care of a health-care professional.
Bill Waterbury, 54, was one of the few at Wednesday's event who supported the clinic.
"Addicts need a place to get treatment. They need a place to go," Waterbury said before the speakers took the stage. "I've known plenty of people in my life who have turned themselves around."
I saw OC at lunch at Wishbone today...he looked very happy. I agree, the meeting was a good move by OC. Meanwhile, I found a "Lizzy B" blog with pictures of the previous BBC in Evanston:
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/bobby%20pictures.jpg) (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/bobby%20pictures.jpg)
click to enlarge
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/lizzibs%20office.jpg) (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/lizzibs%20office.jpg)
click to enlarge
Obviously, she really likes little stuffed cow toys...
http://mobileopiaterx.blogspot.com/
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/lizzibs%20office.jpg)
wow. I think I'd prefer to see the junkies...
-Rob
Initially, I wasn't too thrilled about the public forum, thinking it was more an OC publicity stunt than anything else. However, after seeing the turnout and vehemence of oppsition to the clinic yesterday, I've changed my mind. It was the absolute right thing to do Kudos to OC for reading the situation correctly.
Quote from: sktlbaby on July 17, 2008, 01:43:15 PM
I was told by Nona that the Gazette was really a vehicle for the Mayor to voice his opinions etc. She also said it was eventually shut down because it was discovered that the mayor was using campaign funds to keep it running. Who knows who to believe at this point.
Quote from: sktlbaby on July 17, 2008, 02:08:18 PM
I have the paperwork in front of me...
"Publication fee of $400.00 paid direct to Berwyn Gazette"
The Berwyn Gazette is not the mayor's paper to voice his opinions. In fact, just the opposite. The Gazette has been vehemently opposed to Michael O' Connor for 8 years now.
Nona was probably talking about the Berwyn Banner, but Ted is correct, the Gazette is the brdo voice in town.
Quote from: SILK on July 17, 2008, 06:45:51 PM
Nona was probably talking about the Berwyn Banner, but Ted is correct, the Gazette is the brdo voice in town.
It's no wonder that the Mayor was so angry at the city council meeting when Nona accused him of telling the owners they had to purchase an ad in the Berwyn Banner. The mayor vehemently denied it. Based on what the owners have said here, it was the Berwyn Gazette.
Article in the Life:
http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/berwyn/news/x1346886197/Methadone-clinic-plan-draws-ire
Methadone clinic plan draws ire
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Danya Hooker, dhooker@mysuburbanlife.com
Berwyn Life
Thu Jul 17, 2008, 02:28 PM CDT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berwyn, IL -
In a rare move, the Berwyn City Council is poised to reverse a previous decision and withdraw its approval of a controversial drug abuse treatment center after the clinic drew sharp criticism from local residents during a forum Wednesday. Hundreds of Berwyn residents crowded the municipal parking lot on the 3300 block of Grove Avenue Wednesday to voice their outrage over the Bobby Buonauro Clinic, a treatment center that would provide methadone to people addicted to opiates, particularly heroin. Three alderman told the crowd Wednesday they would reconsider previous votes to approve the clinic, despite the likelihood that such a move will result in a discrimination lawsuit against the city.
"I have heard you; I will reconsider," 1st Ward Alderman Nona Chapman said. "It will cost us a lot of money. Our chances in court are slim to none."
Mayor Michael O'Connor said he called the town meeting because of the public outcry after the city council's July 8 approval of the clinic, a 2,000-square-foot facility proposed to go into a medical building in Berwyn's Depot District. O'Connor said he wanted the alderman who approved the measure — Chapman, 4th Ward Alderman Michele Skryd, 6th Ward Alderman Michael Phelan and 7th Ward Alderman Robert Lovero — to hear the residents' complaints.
All three of the alderman at the forum said they would reconsider their votes at the council's next meeting Tuesday. Phelan was not present.
Many residents told alderman they were not unconditionally opposed to methadone clinics but did not believe the Depot District, a family-oriented business area near schools and private residences, was the appropriate place to put a treatment center.
Residents said the clinic could result in more crime, depress nearby property values and inhibit revitalization attempts in the Depot District.
"I love the Depot District," resident Robin Scharf said. "The Depot District is a gem. It just needs a little polishing. It does not need a methadone clinic."
Clinic owner Elizabeth Buonauro, an 18-year Berwyn resident who lives two blocks from the clinic's proposed location, briefly addressed the crowd before heckling forced her off the podium. Buonauro said the clinic could help solve Berwyn's heroin problem and that city leaders should have expressed their concerns when the clinic's application was submitted in January.
"If the mayor of this town didn't want a methadone clinic, he should have said so in February, not July," Buonauro said.
But O'Connor said the group's application only referred to a "substance abuse clinic" and not a methadone clinic. The clinic won approval from the Zoning Board of Appeals in March. In April, the city council voted 4-4 on whether to approve the clinic before Mayor Michael O'Connor broke the tie and voted against it. The measure came before the council again July 8, and the same four members voted in favor of the clinic. Fifth Ward Alderman Tom Day and 2nd Ward Alderman Jim Ramos were not present at the July 8 meeting, and the clinic won final approval.
Chapman said she consulted several attorneys and was told there was no legal basis to deny the clinic and that doing so would make the city vulnerable to a discrimination lawsuit. The clinic qualifies as a medical clinic and meets all zoning requirements for its proposed location. As such, the clinic owners could sue the city under anti-discrimination laws.
The clinic proposal likely will come before the council again at Tuesday's meeting.
"It's no secret that I believe putting a methadone clinic in a mixed-use residential area is a bad move," O'Connor told the crowd. "I voted against it once, and I'll vote against it again given the chance."
Theres too many Newspapers out there that easily sound the same and can be meant
as the other! Berwyn Banner, Berwyn Gazette what's really the difference? They are both
politically orientated.
BP, Nona knows the difference between the Gazette and the Banner (which doesn't really exist as a newspaper)...
What do you mean by ( which doesn't really exist as a newspaper?) Has publication
stopped?
Nona doesn't know the difference between the Banner and the Gazette, but she knows the likelihood of success in a federal zoning discrimination suit.
Right.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 17, 2008, 07:21:11 PM
What do you mean by ( which doesn't really exist as a newspaper?) Has publication
stopped?
I didn't know it really ever started. I rec'd like 2 in the mailbox. Do you know where I can get it?
I certainly know where I can get the Gagzette on a regular basis.
Quote from: Bonster on July 17, 2008, 07:27:59 PM
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 17, 2008, 07:21:11 PM
What do you mean by ( which doesn't really exist as a newspaper?) Has publication
stopped?
I didn't know it really ever started. I rec'd like 2 in the mailbox. Do you know where I can get it?
I certainly know where I can get the Gagzette on a regular basis.
The Banner is defunct. The OC was being threatened with lawsuits for political corruption by using the taxpayers' dollars to publish and distribute the Banner, which basically pushed his political agenda (thinnly disguised as an "official" Berwyn newspaper). Though the Gazette is clearly unfavorable to the OC (can you blame it??), its publication/distribution is paid for by advertisers in that paper. The Gazette is free and can be picked up at many local establishments.
Don't kid yourselves, OC did not call this meeting to appease the masses.
He saw the opportunity to strike at what he considers his enemies, not just
political opponents, and relished every minute of it.
Kick was wrong in his assessment that OC drew the large crowd, that was done thru
other networking groups, not the mayor.
He had his new campaign manager working the crowd of well placed hecklers, the vile hecklers
were people I have never seen before. He worked the "Give us Barabbas" mentality of the crowd
to full political advantage. OC teaming with Galloway equals the lowest common denominator
in politics.
OC ignored Shelley's plea to keep politics out of the evening, laying a dig into each alderman
after they spoke. He even hand picked the IVB's replacement for #3's seat as one of the resident
speakers...How special. Or not.
What troubled me as well was that most of the crowd had no clue who #4 was when she went up
to the podium and forgot to introduce herself. People are not even aware who the aldermen are?
That is why things like this happen. Pay attention people.
I give high praise to the aldermen who had the nads to stand before an ugly crowd like this regardless of the way they voted. That took some courage to take that beating, I consider them to have more integrity to do such rather than to just seize a political opportunity like the mayor did.
Quote from: Bear on July 17, 2008, 07:44:26 PM
OC teaming with Galloway equals the lowest common denominator in politics.
Lower than LOVERO's campaign manager publicly threatening citizens in the town for which he's working? I think not!
"I consider them to have more integrity to do such rather than to just seize a political opportunity like the mayor did."LOLOLOL!!!
What a joke! They did not have a choice in the matter. Spin again.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 17, 2008, 07:35:29 PM
The Banner is defunct.
blah blah blah blah
Thank you for making my point. To confuse the "Banner" with the Gazette is ludicrous, even if the Gazette is just as bad.
I know where to find the Gagzette - anywhere with greasy fried foods.
Nads?
The ONLY way any of the Methadone Quartet could have displayed some nads was to stick by their original vote.
Lets recap.
The matter comes before City Council on a request for a conditional use permit after a business license was denied. The Methadone Quartet votes yay in unison, without the benefit of a zba advisory opinion. Had they done their due diligence at this point and determined it wasn't cost effective to dey the permit? Was there a legal opinion they were relying on at the time? Because the zba attoneys opinion didn't come until later. The matter goes to zba after councils initial denial and they vote yes after their attorney renders opinion. The Methadone Four follows the zba's recommendation and votes yay again in unison. I supose that at THIS time they definitely had done their due diligence, since they voted yay twice. I would also imagine that due diligence would encompass doing some of their own legal research, especially since one of the four is a practicing attorney, and consulting with their respective constituencies.
Was either of the two done?
I can tell you definitively that there are cases which directly contradict the opinion of the zba lawyer. Those cases are just as easy to find for Mr Lovero, a practicing attorney, as they were for me. Furthermore, ts painfully apparent none of the four took the wishes of their constituents into consideration Why? Because the wishes of their constituents, graphically illustrated yesterday, is the sole basis for their reconsideration.
Gonads you say?
NOT A CHANCE!
Nads is when you stand up for what you believe and what you vote for, irrespective of the backlash. It doesn't encompass backpedaling faster than Deion Sanders and whimpering about how you want to get reelected.
What more do you want Bobby, Nona, and Michelle to do. They gave their reasons, that's
what they were there to do. They admitted each in their own way that maybe that wasn't the right choice.
They said they would reconsider their vote, and Michelle actually said she would change her vote.
As far as Phelan, well he took the back road out, and didn't have the guts to face a very angry crowd.
Not much more you can say about a coward.
How much more can you crucify them? I think this whole issue has been an eye opener to everyone,
The Aldermen/women, Mayor and the people who are outraged.
If all of the above had paid closer attention, including the voters, this might not have gotten so out of
hand.
The voters do need to watch the agendas that come out each Friday before cc meetings. See something
you might question, call your Aldermen/women or send a watch dog to the meeting.
Political it shouldn't have been, but no matter what you think it was so obvious the Mayor would have won an
award for grandstanding. If there was a contest last night on who could blame who the most, the Mayor would have won
hands down. He stole the show, don't kid yourselves.
What I want the Methadone Quartet (or Trio, take your pick) to do is stop with the bullshit hypocrisy.
The ONLY reason they changed their minds is because it would cost them votes skryd basically admitted as much, unwittingly so.
The fact is, it was Mr. Lovero, not I, that claimed he had done due diligence.
Did he ask what his constituents wanted before voting YES, TWICE? Did he do the necessary legal research before voting YES, TWICE? Did he bother to find out how many pediatricians wee on the second floor of the building before voting YES, TWICE?
And if he did, why is he changing his vote now? what changed between then and now?
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 17, 2008, 08:49:34 PM
If there was a contest last night on who could blame who the most, the Mayor would have won
hands down.
Good. He needs to sink to the DCoB's level like that. Makes this all the more fun for me.
Quote from: Bear on July 17, 2008, 07:44:26 PM
OC ignored Shelley's plea to keep politics out of the evening, laying a dig into each alderman
after they spoke. He even hand picked the IVB's replacement for #3's seat as one of the resident
speakers...How special. Or not.
That bozo who just moved here is OC's new #3 candidate? Geez he must really be getting desperate. Someone from the ward told me that OC was already out peddling him and doors were getting slammed in their faces. Now we know why.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 17, 2008, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: Bear on July 17, 2008, 07:44:26 PM
OC ignored Shelley's plea to keep politics out of the evening, laying a dig into each alderman
after they spoke. He even hand picked the IVB's replacement for #3's seat as one of the resident
speakers...How special. Or not.
That bozo who just moved here is OC's new #3 candidate? Geez he must really be getting desperate. Someone from the ward told me that OC was already out peddling him and doors were getting slammed in their faces. Now we know why.
Perhaps he's rebuiding in the image of the DCoBozos? I agree with you that that would be a bad move, Bennifer.
Are you saying that Weiner is not running again? And if not, who is the new "Bozo"?
Quote from: SILK on July 17, 2008, 08:56:47 PM
The ONLY reason they changed their minds is because it would cost them votes skryd basically admitted as much, unwittingly so.
Not defending anyone here, but as an elected official, isn't fear of losing votes a very good reason to change their vote? Isn't fear of losing votes the leverage we hold over them? It would be nice if they did the right thing in their own, but they're politicians. We know we have to hold their feet to the fire.
-Rob
Quote from: Suzy Q on July 17, 2008, 09:24:51 PM
Are you saying that Weiner is not running again? And if not, who is the new "Bozo"?
I think the answer to your first question is yes. Mark has stated he is not running for re-election.
Ted
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 17, 2008, 08:49:34 PM
The voters do need to watch the agendas that come out each Friday before cc meetings. See something
you might question, call your Aldermen/women or send a watch dog to the meeting.
Pat, in this case, there was nothing in the text of the 7/8 city council agenda or in the packet to indicate that this was a methadone clinic.
Good observation, Rob. Now can you stop the crucification, Silk?
Rob,
I understand your point, but NO, its not a good reason if its the ONLY reason. Or rather, it becomes a grave problem when we need a public forum for the politicos to feel the publics wrath.
@Patsy,
I'l stop the crucifixion when you and bear cut the bullshit for God's sake, there is video footage of the event and a Trib reporters version of the events.
btw, my earlier post wasn't directed solely to Bobby. If anything, he came off the best. it was directed to all of the Methadone Quartet, especially no show Phelan. I simply feel Bobby should be held to somewhat of a higer standard here because he's an attorney with the knowledgeand ability to do his own legal research and comprehend the legal ramifications of his vote.
Ted, I first became alarmed and aware back when reading the 4-8-08, full packet
CC agenda. In fact I believe I mentioned this was going to be a problem on this board
somewhere in the 4-8-08 notes that were put on about the cc meeting.
I can't believe that no one else who read the statements, Mayor included did not wonder what the hell
this clinic was bringing to the DD.
Go back to the Communications from the zba 4-8-2008. As I read 1. Patient substance abuse Medical Clinic
which includes alcohol & Drug prescription abuse.
2. Liz Buonauro is not a Doctor, they name some staff to be hired including security, counselors.
3. A MacNeal Hospital representative who was present at the hearing STATED THAT ALTHOUGH MACNEAL HAS SOME SUBSTANCE ABUSE PROGRAMS, NONE PROVIDED THE SAME SERVICES AS THIS PROPOSED CLINIC!!
I can't believe NOONE, questioned what exactly those services were.
Abig RED flag hit me in the face when I read just that little bit.
Now, if some of the voters had read the full packet, or sent a watch dog to the meeting, maybe that would
have made all the difference. Everyone has a little bit of guilt to share in this one.
Hell of a spin on things there Patsy
Lets see if we can fit a square peg in a round hole and find a way to blame OC, of all people. the fact is, he was asked to vote on it once, and said NO. Your Methadone Quartet was asked to vote on it TWICE, and said YES, TWICE!
But hey, if you keep searching long enough, you're bound to find something to pin on OC. Maybe the mortgae crisis? Or the Iraq War?
Just make sure you do it in somewhat of a timey fashion. It becomes really time consuming waiting for you and/or bear to consult the dcob email hotline before responding to posts on this forum.
It amazes me, at what little you know. Isn't it time for you to get ready for bed, ya know
put your "silk pajamas"on. Good night little one.
Good response Patsy. Expected. Just wonder why the dcob couldn't find any more BTF sacrificial lambs than you and bear?
p.s. I sleep commando style.
I could have done without that FYI!
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 17, 2008, 10:11:02 PM
I can't believe NOONE, questioned what exactly those services were.
Abig RED flag hit me in the face when I read just that little bit.
Now, if some of the voters had read the full packet, or sent a watch dog to the meeting, maybe that would
have made all the difference. Everyone has a little bit of guilt to share in this one.
Well, geez, Patsy........for someone who supposedly needs to "protect their investment" here, and who funnels money to the Berwyn Dummies for that cause, why didn't YOU catch that??
Quote from: Ted on July 17, 2008, 06:56:56 PM
Quote from: SILK on July 17, 2008, 06:45:51 PM
Nona was probably talking about the Berwyn Banner, but Ted is correct, the Gazette is the brdo voice in town.
It's no wonder that the Mayor was so angry at the city council meeting when Nona accused him of telling the owners they had to purchase an ad in the Berwyn Banner. The mayor vehemently denied it. Based on what the owners have said here, it was the Berwyn Gazette.
Ted, good catch. I remember Nona saying that and knew for a fact it was not true, yet her statement became record.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 17, 2008, 09:12:30 PM
Quote from: Bear on July 17, 2008, 07:44:26 PM
OC ignored Shelley's plea to keep politics out of the evening, laying a dig into each alderman
after they spoke. He even hand picked the IVB's replacement for #3's seat as one of the resident
speakers...How special. Or not.
That bozo who just moved here is OC's new #3 candidate? Geez he must really be getting desperate. Someone from the ward told me that OC was already out peddling him and doors were getting slammed in their faces. Now we know why.
The brunette IVB choice for replacing #7 gave me more concern,
I thought she had more integrity given her admirable track record.
How unfortunate.
The OC has had three years to improve our life here in 60402.
Is your life better in Berwyn than it was three years ago?
Have you seen positives in the way of growth in our city under OC?, or just protection
of politico appointments. and your tax money being pissed away on ineptitude and foolishness?
Daley refugees seem to be the largest growing factor under the mayors watch pushing BPD to the limits,
would you care to offer them an ice cold frap as you walk your children into the DD?
These people are very receptive of taking things from others.
I anxiously await proof of positives since OC has been mayor.
Tell me about them.
"Daley refugees seem to be the largest growing factor under the mayors watch pushing BPD to the limits,
would you care to offer them an ice cold frap as you walk your children into the DD?"
Cicero refugees were the largest growing factor under the DCoBRDO, our home values never increased under them, and thus, Berwyn is the end result.
Our problems were caused by YOUR jokers, and will not get better under their drunk & disorderly rule.
Bear,
Go hibernate will you.
You were much better off with Marzullo patrolling the streets sans Daley refugees. lol!!
Daley? He's one of YOUR dem dese and dose buddies.
Good Lord guy, how many cans of Hamm's have you downed tonight? The peanut gallery couldn't come up with anything more substantive?
Your Methadone quartet got its ass handed to it last night. THAT is what the topic is all about.
Quote from: Bear on July 17, 2008, 10:45:35 PM
The OC has had three years to improve our life here in 60402.
Is your life better in Berwyn than it was three years ago?
Have you seen positives in the way of growth in our city under OC?, or just protection
of politico appointments. and your tax money being pissed away on ineptitude and foolishness?
Daley refugees seem to be the largest growing factor under the mayors watch pushing BPD to the limits,
would you care to offer them an ice cold frap as you walk your children into the DD?
These people are very receptive of taking things from others.
I anxiously await proof of positives since OC has been mayor.
Tell me about them.
Bear,
Can you say how Lovero plans to address the above concerns? As Alderman, has he proposed any ideas, made any motions, done any committee work to address those concerns? I'm seriously asking.
Besides the Daly refugees, there have also been many young families, artists and DINKS moving in. I don't think O'Connor can take credit or blame for any of those groups...it is what it is. I think the Chief of Police that he appointed has done a great job and has the respect of the community, Berwyn police and the surrounding law enforcement. Economic/business development is a great issue that I would like to hear both O'Connor and Lovero address. Maybe I'll have to wait for the ABC forum for that. If I were running for mayor, I'd be talking about it now, though.
I see you've abandoned the other thread listing the reasons to vote for Lovero.
SHELLEY,
You're going to have to wait while Bear consults the dcob email hotline before you get an answer. The power of collective thought.
Quote from: Shelley on July 17, 2008, 11:02:50 PM
Besides the Daly refugees, there have also been many young families, artists and DINKS moving in. I don't think O'Connor can take credit or blame for any of those groups...it is what it is.
Shelley, what I see in my neighborhood was here the day I moved in.
The reason I moved in - this was the only city in which I could afford to buy a house.
The reason the houses were so undervalued??? Certainly not because of the IVB!
Shelley. it is not my place to say what any particular candidate
will do in time, I am not running for any office, nor do I speak for those who may do such. I am sure the principals will address such given their own time frame when such things are relevant to
the election. My commentary here is mine, and mine alone. You know very well that I am
beholden to nobody. My interests as well as yours only represent what is best for Berwyn.
Both of us would be the first to cut a fresh one to any political interest who did not have the residents of Berwyn first and formost in mind
Quote from: Bear on July 17, 2008, 11:19:34 PM
Shelley. it is not my place to say what any particular candidate
will do in time, I am not running for any office, nor do I speak for those who may do such. I am sure the principals will address such given their own time frame when such things are relevant to
the election. My commentary here is mine, and mine alone. You know very well that I am
beholden to nobody. My interests as well as yours only represent what is best for Berwyn.
Both of us would be the first to cut a fresh one to any political interest who did not have the residents of Berwyn first and formost in mind
So let me ask you this...how do you decide to support the DCOB if you don't know what they are going to do? What if their announced plans are something you don't agree with? Would you still support them because...???
This whole "I don't speak for a candidate" is silly. Other people have asked, and NO ONE will reveal what the DCOB hopes to do to improve this community. Not a one.
Brian, I turn this right back to you...What has OC done
in the last three years to improve our lot in life?
Tell us said accomplishments that made a significant difference, and what his plans entail for the next four years.
Well I know 1 thing, a methadone clinic is not going to improve the community. I think after lasts night showing of concern from the community, it is time for the politicians to stop trying to cover their asses and arguing with each other and start focusing on what is important, the reason they are even in office, time to start listening to the people who put them where they are today.
Quote from: Bear on July 17, 2008, 11:39:45 PM
Brian, I turn this right back to you...What has OC done
in the last three years to improve our lot in life?
Tell us said accomplishments that made a significant difference.
1) Hired a reputable police chief
2) Completed audits which had not been done for years
3) Refinanced debt, which couldn't not have been done without #2
So again, does ANYONE know what the DCOB plans for Berwyn? More Methadone Clinics?
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 17, 2008, 11:45:48 PM
So again, does ANYONE know what the DCOB plans for Berwyn?
This whole thing with them not having any plans, etc., is absurd. Why would anyone support a group with no direction or ideas? Only in Berwyn, I guess.
LMAO
That was good still laughing, as for putting in more methadone clinics they might try in North Berwyn, since it was said pages ago that South Berwyn doesn't give a ---- about North Berwyn. We might want to keep our eyes open to see if that is the plan. In posts last night I suggested that Liz take it back to the City of Chicago 18th and Kostner, where the city closed up the drug producing projects, and put the clinic there and offer "legal" drugs on the old stomping grounds of the users. She might actually get somewhere with that. Chicago always needs money. Maybe she can use the lawsuit money that Nona is crying about and line the City of Chicago bank accounts
Quote from: Mom of 2 / LLROB on July 17, 2008, 11:41:16 PM
Well I know 1 thing, a methadone clinic is not going to improve the community. I think after lasts night showing of concern from the community, it is time for the politicians to stop trying to cover their asses and arguing with each other and start focusing on what is important, the reason they are even in office, time to start listening to the people who put them where they are today.
The demolition of the Sears Bungalow, the PW layoffs, and the methadone clinic are all things that happened because of non-communication and spite. The Bungalow was demolished because one department didn't communicate with the other, the PW layoffs because the aldermen could not agree on an alternative money-saver back in January(?) and the methodone clinic because someone knows someone(?).
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 17, 2008, 11:45:48 PM
Quote from: Bear on July 17, 2008, 11:39:45 PM
Brian, I turn this right back to you...What has OC done
in the last three years to improve our lot in life?
Tell us said accomplishments that made a significant difference.
1) Hired a reputable police chief
2) Completed audits which had not been done for years
3) Refinanced debt, which couldn't not have been done without #2
4) A decent web page where we can find such useful information like CC Agendas, rather than hiding such information from the residents.
(the DCoBRDO page was like some kind of 1997 AOL joke - still is!)
5) Attempted to research combining school districts before being shot down.
You know what the plans are - they are in place now.
Everyday life is about the same in Berwyn. Some things are better, some worse.
Quality of life has gotten better due to less shootings and less noise.
But...I lost a bunch of my favorite local restaurants.
Building Dept as shitty as ever...no change.
Well as for trying to combine the school districts and pulling Morton West away from Morton East, that idea came from everyone's favorite noisy neighbor, Tony. Ya know the one who complains about the kids playing in the school grounds and insisted on the gates being locked after hours because he doesn't like kids, yet he bought a home on a block that has more kids then he could ever imagine. Let's not forget that he is in favor of the Methadone Clinic and is on the school board.
Quote from: Mom of 2 / LLROB on July 18, 2008, 12:14:44 AM
Well as for trying to combine the school districts and pulling Morton West away from Morton East
No, that had nothing to do with Morton. Just the elementary districts.
Oh, the petition that had been going around here was stating dist 100, 98 and dividing 201. I did not sign it. Sorry for the confusion
Quote from: Mom of 2 / LLROB on July 18, 2008, 12:14:44 AM
Well as for trying to combine the school districts and pulling Morton West away from Morton East, that idea came from everyone's favorite noisy neighbor, Tony. Ya know the one who complains about the kids playing in the school grounds and insisted on the gates being locked after hours because he doesn't like kids, yet he bought a home on a block that has more kids then he could ever imagine. Let's not forget that he is in favor of the Methadone Clinic and is on the school board.
You don't mean Tony Harris do you?
I've got an email from him that I'd be happy to forward where he states he is AGAINST the clinic. It was sent 7/13 to about 40 people.
Shelley: "Bear, Can you say how Lovero plans to address the above concerns? As Alderman, has he proposed any ideas, made any motions, done any committee work to address those concerns? I'm seriously asking."
Shelley, why don't you ask your father. Then tell us what he says.
Brian,
What plans does the DCOB have for Berwyn? Hw dare you ask such an appaling question?
Why of course, the DCOB will definitely give the next ciy banner contract to bear's outfit.
That's enough for the man from the land of sky blue waters.
LOL!!!
Quote from: Mom of 2 / LLROB on July 18, 2008, 12:14:44 AM
Let's not forget that he is in favor of the Methadone Clinic and is on the school board.
If you are speaking about Tony Harris (who is on the District 100 board), I spoke to him yesterday on the train and he was definitely AGAINST the clinic. Where on earth did you get the info that he was in favor?
Quote from: Mom of 2 / LLROB on July 18, 2008, 12:20:56 AM
Oh, the petition that had been going around here was stating dist 100, 98 and dividing 201. I did not sign it. Sorry for the confusion
Uhmm... that petition was circulated TWO years ago and the referendum was on the ballot in November 2006. Maybe you miissed the election.
Quote from: Terri on July 17, 2008, 10:36:20 PM
Quote from: Ted on July 17, 2008, 06:56:56 PM
Quote from: SILK on July 17, 2008, 06:45:51 PM
Nona was probably talking about the Berwyn Banner, but Ted is correct, the Gazette is the brdo voice in town.
It's no wonder that the Mayor was so angry at the city council meeting when Nona accused him of telling the owners they had to purchase an ad in the Berwyn Banner. The mayor vehemently denied it. Based on what the owners have said here, it was the Berwyn Gazette.
Ted, good catch. I remember Nona saying that and knew for a fact it was not true, yet her statement became record.
I think Alderman Chapman owes the mayor an apology. But, that will probably happen when they start playing ice hockey on the River Styx.
- James Young
Good morning Silk, I am sure this beautiful day will be filled with your nasty comments, hateful
remarks and etc., but we are all getting use to it. I know you can't help it, again we are who we are.
I have to laugh when you keep insinuating that my phone is ringing off the hook, and I am being feed
a script to write for the DCOB. If anyone knows me at all, they will tell you I am my own person, and when
I believe in something, no one will change my mind or ever make me do something I do not want to do.
I have made it perfectly clear many times about my choice of support for Bobby Lovero. I have also made
it perfectly clear when I have disagreed with issues he may have supported., but I am not going to get into all that
again.
Shelley, you are right, you may just have to wait for a couple of debates to begin, before some of your questions
will be answered on what his plans for the city would entail.
It's easy to place blame on others. Be patient and when it all starts, listen to all sides not just Silk and Bonster.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 18, 2008, 07:10:34 AMGood morning Silk, I am sure this beautiful day will be filled with your nasty comments, hateful
remarks and etc., but we are all getting use to it.
That's correct, Berwyn Patsy. We're used to it coming from Bear on a regular basis (and a host of other DCoB supporters with bad grammar).
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 18, 2008, 07:10:34 AM
Be patient and when it all starts, listen to all sides not just Silk and Bonster.
That's right! We've heard the filth about the IVB and DCoB here, now let's get other parties' sides. Any Berwyn Republicans ready to spout here?
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 18, 2008, 07:10:34 AM
I have made it perfectly clear many times about my choice of support for Bobby Lovero.
BP supports the devil! :666: Can she be saved?
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 18, 2008, 07:10:34 AM
Good morning Silk, I am sure this beautiful day will be filled with your nasty comments, hateful
remarks and etc., but we are all getting use to it. I know you can't help it, again we are who we are.
Towards whom?
If you're referring to bear, he deserves it.
If you're referring to the Methadone Quartet, haven't said anything of the sort, although they probably deserve it also. Haven't said anything worse than the verbal barrage they faced Wednesday afternoon.
If you're referring to yourself, you're lying.
QuoteI have to laugh when you keep insinuating that my phone is ringing off the hook, and I am being feed
a script to write for the DCOB.
Patsy, I said
E-MAIL communication. Do you receive your e-mails via telephone? You're not sipping the nectar from the land of sky blue waters, are you?
QuoteI have made it perfectly clear many times about my choice of support for Bobby Lovero.
Well actually, you haven't ALWAYS made it perfectly clear. There was that one little time when you did the Pro Bowl backpedal after apat confronted you about monetary contributions to the dcob and Lovero. You denied at first, then feigned ignorance, then threw the ball in hubby's court, and finally admitted the obvious later. But that's OK. This is America, a free country. You can support whoever you want.
Quotemade it perfectly clear when I have disagreed with issues he may have supported
:D :D :D
And here is where you lose ALL SEMBLANCE OF CREDIBILITY. You've disagreed with Lovero on virtually
EVERY issue of substance. Keep in mind, the Mayor's manners is
NOT an issue. Also keep in mind that I'm not the party who has pointed this out to you on numerous occassions and taken you to task for it-that would be Bonster.
but I am not going to get into all that
again.I'll bet you won't. I wouldn't either if I were you.
;D :D ;D
QuoteShelley, you are right, you may just have to wait for a couple of debates to begin, before some of your questions
will be answered on what his plans for the city would entail.
You really want people to believe this line of bs. Shelley is your DAUGHTER. You would think that your DAUGHTER would be someone you would share some of the dcob insight with.
QuoteIt's easy to place blame on others.
That's right. The blame falls squarely on the Methadone Quartet. Stop trying to shift it to OC.
QuoteBe patient and when it all starts, listen to all sides not just Silk and Bonster.
Right Shelley, be patient, wait until mid April of next year, and you'll find out exactly what the dcob platform is. :D
p.s. If you want a sneak preview, take a look at the Methadone Quartet's voting patterns in City Council.
I think for those supporting the DCOB you just have to ask what exactly are they supporting. Are they just supporting #1, the political ambitions of certain ppl or #2, the platform those ppl stand on. If it's #2, the platform .... what is it? .... and let's not use terms like "betterment of Berwyn". Looking for specifics. No specifics ... then one can only assume it's really #1. We've already got that.
apat,
I think you already have a sampling of their stance on certain issues based on city council voting to date.
btw apat, its MOVE BERWYN FORWARD, not "betterment of Berwyn".
MOVE BERWYN FORWARD is the catchphrase.
MOVE BERWYN FORWARD.........................with a Methadone Clinic.
e-mails via telephone? LOL!
Maybe that's something offered to those who abandon Berwyn for Orland Park.
bp & bear-ly relevant,
anything you want me to mention to o'connor when i see him @ 10:37 a.m. this morning?
mike
Why yes Mike, tell OC to throw a bone bears way and be a little more plite arund Patsy. Might change their minds. Oh yeah, and don't forget a couple of cases of Old Style.
Bernie:
Chris is a good guy. Perhaps one day you will get to know him, like you have gotten to know me.
Mark
mark,
i've been out of the loop a little bit, is their ANY chance you would consider running again?
mike
One more Bernie:
Can you tell us about Vince? I would love to know where he lives?
Besides that, I would love to read about his vision.
Mark
you know Silk, you and I may not have always agreed in the past, but we do have a few things in common. We both have lived in Berwyn a long time and can sniff out the players that come to this forum and try to put up the old smoke screen. They are soooooooo easy, it's almost like taking candy from a baby. Just about everything they throw up at this forum can be ripped to shreds by those who have lived here long enough to know the players AND the core supporters of those players. The only ppl they might be influencing are newcomers. That's it. So if we have a lot of newcomers to Berwyn, be careful what you digest here ... it might end up giving you a belly ache.
I asked Shelley to ask her father because he has been a long time member of / contributor to DCOB/BRDO. Although Shelley very well may have been against the clinic (it's in her neck of the woods), her job was to difuse the crowd from taking Bobby to task. That's how I see it. Her family knows Bobby well enough that she could have picked up the phone or emailed Bobby herself to find out "what he was thinking", and get the answers to the questions she asked of Bear. Please don't insult my intelligence and the intelligence of other "FREE" thinkers here. However, IF she would have done that (called Bobby), I doubt she would have given us a word for word account of what he had to say. That said, Shelley, you still have the opportunity to contact Bobby and let us all know all his responses. ::)
Debates? you're going to learn something from debates? LOL ... I don't think so. The debates are not conducted in a fashion that you really gain any information as to what a mayoral candidate can list as his goals for the City during his term if elected. OC cannot debate and Bobby cannot debate. So where's the debate? As I said previously, I don't want to hear "change" "betterment" ... this time around I want to hear point by point specifics. To accommodate the point by point specifics and questions from any citizen that has a question, the debates need to be expanded for time. Candidates love when you "run out of time".
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 09:18:56 AM
Her family knows Bobby well enough that she could have picked up the phone or emailed Bobby herself to find out "what he was thinking", and get the answers to the questions she asked of Bear.
I don't think so. I don't think those answers exist.
Quote from: markweiner on July 18, 2008, 09:14:31 AM
One more Bernie:
Can you tell us about Vince? I would love to know where he lives?
Besides that, I would love to read about his vision.
Mark
Now you're asking for a lot Mark.
Vision? What vision? We're all MOVING BERWYN FORWARD.
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 09:18:56 AM
you know Silk, you and I may not have always agreed in the past, but we do have a few things in common. We both have lived in Berwyn a long time and can sniff out the players that come to this forum and try to put up the old smoke screen. They are soooooooo easy, it's almost like taking candy from a baby. Just about everything they throw up at this forum can be ripped to shreds by those who have lived here long enough to know the players AND the core supporters of those players. The only ppl they might be influencing are newcomers. That's it. So if we have a lot of newcomers to Berwyn, be careful what you digest here ... it might end up giving you a belly ache.
I asked Shelley to ask her father because he has been a long time member of / contributor to DCOB/BRDO. Although Shelley very well may have been against the clinic (it's in her neck of the woods), her job was to difuse the crowd from taking Bobby to task. That's how I see it. Her family knows Bobby well enough that she could have picked up the phone or emailed Bobby herself to find out "what he was thinking", and get the answers to the questions she asked of Bear. Please don't insult my intelligence and the intelligence of other "FREE" thinkers here. However, IF she would have done that (called Bobby), I doubt she would have given us a word for word account of what he had to say. That said, Shelley, you still have the opportunity to contact Bobby and let us all know all his responses. ::)
Debates? you're going to learn something from debates? LOL ... I don't think so. The debates are not conducted in a fashion that you really gain any information as to what a mayoral candidate can list as his goals for the City during his term if elected. OC cannot debate and Bobby cannot debate. So where's the debate? As I said previously, I don't want to hear "change" "betterment" ... this time around I want to hear point by point specifics. To accommodate the point by point specifics and questions from any citizen that has a question, the debates need to be expanded for time. Candidates love when you "run out of time".
Apat - I'll let Shelley speak for herself (but right now she's got the kids at zoo camp, and I've got the day off and am being less than productive on here, so I'll post).
But, I can tell you this, unequivocally. You are woefully jumping to erroneous conclusions when you assume that just because Shelley's parents are Lovero supporters that that means that she is. The only person she supports for Mayor is Bonster.
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 09:18:56 AM
her job was to difuse the crowd from taking Bobby to task. That's how I see it.
That may be the most laughable post ever. Shelley's 'job' was to express what hundreds of people feel about this clinic issue. And she nailed it.
Careful with the assumptions you make Apat. I, for one, never assume that just because someone has lived in Berwyn a long time, means they know anything about anything.
Mark Titzer
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 09:18:56 AM
you know Silk, you and I may not have always agreed in the past, but we do have a few things in common. We both have lived in Berwyn a long time and can sniff out the players that come to this forum and try to put up the old smoke screen. They are soooooooo easy, it's almost like taking candy from a baby. Just about everything they throw up at this forum can be ripped to shreds by those who have lived here long enough to know the players AND the core supporters of those players. The only ppl they might be influencing are newcomers. That's it. So if we have a lot of newcomers to Berwyn, be careful what you digest here ... it might end up giving you a belly ache.
+1.
;)
QuoteI asked Shelley to ask her father because he has been a long time member of / contributor to DCOB/BRDO. Although Shelley very well may have been against the clinic (it's in her neck of the woods), her job was to difuse the crowd from taking Bobby to task. That's how I see it. Her family knows Bobby well enough that she could have picked up the phone or emailed Bobby herself to find out "what he was thinking", and get the answers to the questions she asked of Bear. Please don't insult my intelligence and the intelligence of other "FREE" thinkers here. However, IF she would have done that (called Bobby), I doubt she would have given us a word for word account of what he had to say. That said, Shelley, you still have the opportunity to contact Bobby and let us all know all his responses. ::)
Debates? you're going to learn something from debates? LOL ... I don't think so. The debates are not conducted in a fashion that you really gain any information as to what a mayoral candidate can list as his goals for the City during his term if elected. OC cannot debate and Bobby cannot debate. So where's the debate? As I said previously, I don't want to hear "change" "betterment" ... this time around I want to hear point by point specifics. To accommodate the point by point specifics and questions from any citizen that has a question, the debates need to be expanded for time. Candidates love when you "run out of time".
On this I may disagree a bit apat.
I'm not so sure Shelley was diffusing the inevitable barrage directed at Bobby & Co.
I simply think she threw out the old "no politics" verbiage to further validate and legitimize her point. It was more self serving (not in a bad way) than a shield for the Methadone Quartet.
That being said, Shelley (and everyone else) knew all too well that the four YAY votes were ALL ABOUT POLITICS. Nothing else.
With respect to the smokescreen and bs, you are 100%. We may not always agree on substantive issues, but one thing is certain, a bullshitter is a bullshitter. Thats why people like yourself, bonster, etc... make the Dems nervous and uncomfortable. You serve as BS FILTERS on this board and nothing gets past you. Hence, the phone calls, emails, clandestine meetings, etc..........
p.s. Don't kid yourself, the newbies are catching on.
Here's the assumption. That Shelley made the level headed speech to satisfy the crowd that their concerns were voiced vs. hot headed citizens getting up and blasting Lovero, Nona and every other damn person that had anything to do with the clinic.
Java ... then I can only ASSUME that since Shelley does not support Lovero that she supports OC. Would that be correct ... since Bon is not Mayor and isn't planning on running for mayor? ... or is he? Your continuous claims of a non-partisan household grows old. You support no one and Shelley supports no one. For a family deeply entrenched with the old guard this is laughable. You guys would make great salesmen.
p.s. Java .... I've lived here longer than you have been alive.
That may be the most laughable post ever. Shelley's 'job' was to express what hundreds of people feel about this clinic issue. And she nailed it.
She sure did!! So much so that two things have been on my mind on this subject since Wed nite: 1) what other local communities in IL have also faced this debate (per Shelley's remarks at the podium), and 2) how can we move forward with those communities to get legislation passed stipulating where it's appropriate to place a MMT center in one's city or town.
Jennifer,
apat wasn't referring to shelley's remarks in general on the issue. he was referring to her "keep politics out of it" remark.
Quote from: Boris on July 17, 2008, 06:00:52 PM
I saw OC at lunch at Wishbone today...he looked very happy. I agree, the meeting was a good move by OC. Meanwhile, I found a "Lizzy B" blog with pictures of the previous BBC in Evanston:
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/bobby%20pictures.jpg) (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/bobby%20pictures.jpg)
click to enlarge
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/lizzibs%20office.jpg) (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/lizzibs%20office.jpg)
click to enlarge
Obviously, she really likes little stuffed cow toys...
http://mobileopiaterx.blogspot.com/
Is there a reason you posted only those 2 photos of the clinic? Or are they the only ones provided to the city that were leaked to you?
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 10:15:33 AM
Java ... then I can only ASSUME that since Shelley does not support Lovero that she supports OC. Would that be correct ... since Bon is not Mayor and isn't planning on running for mayor? ... or is he?
No. She has just not yet convinced Bonster to run.
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 10:15:33 AM
Your continuous claims of a non-partisan household grows old.
I don't care if its old to you. It is what it is.
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 10:15:33 AM
For a family deeply entrenched with the old guard this is laughable. You guys would make great salesmen.
Good one. I grew up in Newburgh, Indiana. And I buy things for a living (for a major organization). I don't sell anything. And no, I wouldn't be good at at. The last time I tried to 'sell' something was when I ran for school board and tried to 'sell' the community on paying higher taxes for better academics. The community didn't buy what I was selling.
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 10:15:33 AM
p.s. Java .... I've lived here longer than you have been alive.
That's wonderful. But that still doesn't convince me that you know anything about anything.
java: "That's wonderful. But that still doesn't convince me that you know anything about anything."
but you do, huh?
Quote from: scotty on July 18, 2008, 10:28:31 AM
Is there a reason you posted only those 2 photos of the clinic? Or are they the only ones provided to the city that were leaked to you?
leaked? LOL...that's on a public blog, dude.
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 10:15:33 AM
p.s. Java .... I've lived here longer than you have been alive.
Well you've sure done a great job with the place. I'm not sure I'd be so quick to claim that as a credit.
Perhaps getting out once or twice could help you with a little perspective. I've never seen a place with such entrenched and counterproductive factional politics. Not everyone unhappy with one side is an agent of the other.
-Rob
true.
But in berwyn's case, that has always been true.
Exhibits A & B -Bernie and Patsy.
Quote from: rbain on July 18, 2008, 10:45:06 AM
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 10:15:33 AM
p.s. Java .... I've lived here longer than you have been alive.
Well you've sure done a great job with the place. I'm not sure I'd be so quick to claim that as a credit.
Perhaps getting out once or twice could help you with a little perspective. I've never seen a place with such entrenched and counterproductive factional politics. Not everyone unhappy with one side is an agent of the other.
-Rob
Absolutely Rob. Very counterproductive. And folks wonder why the average Berwynite doesn't get out there (or here) to put in their two cents on issues or get active in local initiatives. Unless you have a really negative view or side with someone who does, than your opinion has no value in the public realm.
Quote from: rbain on July 18, 2008, 10:45:06 AM
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 10:15:33 AM
p.s. Java .... I've lived here longer than you have been alive.
Well you've sure done a great job with the place. I'm not sure I'd be so quick to claim that as a credit.
Perhaps getting out once or twice could help you with a little perspective. I've never seen a place with such entrenched and counterproductive factional politics. Not everyone unhappy with one side is an agent of the other.
-Rob
+1!
apat had nothing to do with how the "place" evolved. He's a Republican Berwyn had been run by the Dems for nearly 40 years. Do a little research on the place you live. It may help. And don't make assumptions and draw conclusions about facts and circumstances which you have absolutely no knowledge of
rbain: "Not everyone unhappy with one side is an agent of the other." True. I, along with a few others here, fit that statement perfectly. Shelley and java ultimately benefit from the parents long association with the old guard whether they directly seek that benefit or not.
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 11:01:20 AM
Shelley and java ultimately benefit from the parents long association with the old guard whether they directly seek that benefit or not.
How so?
your asking me? someone who doesn't know anything. why do you bother?
java .... it's called an "IN". DCOB gets IN you have an IN. Anything you want for your home, complaint attended to ... tree trimmed ... blah blah blah ... it's taken care of ......... BECAUSE .... your in-laws have made that possible for you. No?
Now try blowing more smoke up my ass.
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 10:15:33 AM
Here's the assumption. That Shelley made the level headed speech to satisfy the crowd that their concerns were voiced vs. hot headed citizens getting up and blasting Lovero, Nona and every other damn person that had anything to do with the clinic.
Java ... then I can only ASSUME that since Shelley does not support Lovero that she supports OC. Would that be correct ... since Bon is not Mayor and isn't planning on running for mayor? ... or is he? Your continuous claims of a non-partisan household grows old. You support no one and Shelley supports no one. For a family deeply entrenched with the old guard this is laughable. You guys would make great salesmen.
p.s. Java .... I've lived here longer than you have been alive.
The only thing they're selling is Berwyn. I've worked with Shelley on numerous neighborhood issues and I will tell you politics never once clouded the fact that our goal was to get the job done. In fact the question of political parties never came up, Shelley (Java, as well) knows I am with the IVB so as I see it, if we honestly want to move Berwyn forward politics must take a back seat when dealing with Berwyn's issues. That's how we got into this mess in the first place and I'm not just talking about the methadone clinic.
Well, Terri ... people are unhappy on both sides of the aisle, but you cannot deny what I posted below. It simply is a political FACT of LIFE.
Accepting it as a fact of life is exactly how it is allowed to continue.
Terri,
The way we got into this mess in the first place is the nearly forty year stranglehold the Dems had on berwyn.
Now nonpartisan apolitical cooperation is nice, heartwarming, and endearing, but the question remains, is said coperation being offered with an ulterior motive in mind? Not saying that's the case with Sheley. not at all. Nonetheless, given Berwyn's past history, its quite understandable why people question every little thing. One of the ways people can make assesments is track records and affiliations. Not always entirely accurate, but helpful.
In any event, what history HAS taught us is that if yu open the door even just a wee bit, its ... Katie Bar the Door!!!!
I just got back from the Dentist, and after reading all this nonsense, Apat you have made me
laugh my butt off. Your nonsense is about par with Silk, and Bon.
Yea Shelley and Mark are really Loveros secret supporters, and boy do they ever get all kinds of favors
because we are their in-laws!! LOL WITH TEARS ROLLING DOWN MY FACE.
Night at the races coming up, look for the Raymonds BIG contribution this year.
You have just been made the biggest fool of the day. Pat
Quote from: SILK on July 18, 2008, 11:30:22 AM
Terri,
The way we got into this mess in the first place is the nearly forty year stranglehold the Dems had on berwyn.
Now nonpartisan apolitical cooperation is nice, heartwarming, and endearing, but the question remains, is said coperation being offered with an ulterior motive in mind? Not saying that's the case with Sheley. not at all. Nonetheless, given Berwyn's past history, its quite understandable why people question every little thing. One of the ways people can make assesments is track records and affiliations. Not always entirely accurate, but helpful.
In any event, what history HAS taught us is that if yu open the door even just a wee bit, its ... Katie Bar the Door!!!!
We should make a point to question every little thing, I try and will certainly do much more questioning in light of the slip thru methadone clinic.
Apat, what do you do when you're unhappy with a situation in the City, do you place a call to your Alderman, do you talk to your neighbors, think of a way to fix it? We could add you to our e-mail list of residents, wouldn't want you to feel left out.
Quote from: ESAD on July 18, 2008, 10:28:31 AM
Quote from: Boris on July 17, 2008, 06:00:52 PM
I saw OC at lunch at Wishbone today...he looked very happy. I agree, the meeting was a good move by OC. Meanwhile, I found a "Lizzy B" blog with pictures of the previous BBC in Evanston:
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/bobby%20pictures.jpg) (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/bobby%20pictures.jpg)
click to enlarge
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/lizzibs%20office.jpg) (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/lizzibs%20office.jpg)
click to enlarge
Obviously, she really likes little stuffed cow toys...
http://mobileopiaterx.blogspot.com/
Is there a reason you posted only those 2 photos of the clinic? Or are they the only ones provided to the city that were leaked to you?
SHIT! you're on to me. Yesterday, as I was leaving the Wishbone, I saw OC just being seated. As I walked past, I said, "hi Mike", and he said "oh hi! [name redacted]...say, can you do me a huge favor? I've got these two prints of the BCC clinic that were taken by one of my spies several years ago, in anticipation of Lizzy B coming to Berwyn. Would you be so kind as to post them on Brian's awesome Berwyn Talk bulletin board? Here's a sawbuck for your trouble."
I pocketed the cash and ran home to fulfill my mission.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 18, 2008, 11:34:29 AM
I just got back from the Dentist, and after reading all this nonsense, Apat you have made me
laugh my butt off. Your nonsense is about par with Silk, and Bon.
Yea Shelley and Mark are really Loveros secret supporters, and boy do they ever get all kinds of favors
because we are their in-laws!! LOL WITH TEARS ROLLING DOWN MY FACE.
Night at the races coming up, look for the Raymonds BIG contribution this year.
You have just been made the biggest fool of the day. Pat
Pat,
I
NEVER, in any way, shape, or form, intimated that Shelley or Mark are Lovero supporters. Cut out the bs.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 18, 2008, 11:34:29 AM
Your nonsense is about par with Silk, and Bon.
Only what I speak is truth, not nonsense.
Nonsense is what spews from your keyboard on a daily basis.
(can a keyboard "spew"? )
Nice try, Patsy. It's easy to laugh when you're in Orland.
You and I both know contributions = favors. Soooooooo, even if they are not supporters ... they will still benefit because of the contributions coming from you and hubby. That's just how it is. Those who give have an IN. Your kids may not give ... but you DO, and politicians try not to bite the hand that feeds them, therefore, any accommodation when asked for to show gratitude is put forth. It's nothing to be ashamed about. But let's stop the denials shall we?
I have to step out again for awhile, but ya all keep talking, let's see which of the three of you, can out do the other this afternoon!! LOL.
LOL ........ ok. ::)
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 18, 2008, 12:03:18 PM
I have to step out again for awhile, but ya all keep talking, let's see which of the three of you, can out do the other this afternoon!! LOL.
I don't need anyone - just you for fodder, sweetheart. :-*
Hey, now its the THREE of us?
Look around you Patsy. You're ona n island all by yourself (well, I'm not counting bear). All you're doing here is simply rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 11:12:33 AM
your asking me? someone who doesn't know anything. why do you bother?
java .... it's called an "IN". DCOB gets IN you have an IN. Anything you want for your home, complaint attended to ... tree trimmed ... blah blah blah ... it's taken care of ......... BECAUSE .... your in-laws have made that possible for you. No?
Now try blowing more smoke up my ass.
Apat.
This is the second post where you accuse someone of something with nothing other than "you know that is the way it is" and accusing them of being liars.
I may not have lived here as long as you have, but I do know this. Next post like that gets you a break from here.
apat,
I really don't think Mark or Sheley are trying to blow smoke up your ass. Look at some of the pointed questions Shelley has asked Bear regarding Lovero's campaign. Remember that mark ran for the school board without partisan support.
Quote from: Shelley on July 16, 2008, 02:38:05 PM
OK, so far we have the first two:
1) He's not O'Connor
2) Gerry Galloway is O'Connor's campaign manager
Anyone up to the challenge of giving a reason that DOESN'T refer to O'Connor?? What is Lovero's vision for Berwyn? What will he do differently? Who is his campaign manager? What are his positions on the budget, health insurance, lawsuit coverage for city officials (The Phelan factor)? What specific appointed positions would he eliminate if elected? I've looked at the minutes of city council meetings for the past 3 1/2 years. I see no ideas coming from him. Maybe that will change in the next few months. I hope so.
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
Nice job Apat! You are the first to come up with a pro-Lovero point from this other thread!
#3 - the Titzers will get their trees trimmed whenever they ask!! woohooo!!!
The 'IN', as you term it, I believe comes from standing up and stating your name, getting involved, and demanding good government. If that is smoke and its going up your ass, then its because your ass is on your shoulders.
I'm done with you Apat. But I am not done with Berwyn. Good day.
Mark Titzer
(http://www.clipartof.com/images/thumbnail/1233.gif)
java, feeble job at trying to minimize what is factual. I ASSUME you and wife WILL vote in the election.
p.s. ... you have lots of trees
its no secret that mark rec'd palm card help from the dems when he ran. he also has attended BRDO fundraisers over the years.
Quote from: Boris on July 18, 2008, 11:45:07 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 18, 2008, 10:28:31 AM
Quote from: Boris on July 17, 2008, 06:00:52 PM
I saw OC at lunch at Wishbone today...he looked very happy. I agree, the meeting was a good move by OC. Meanwhile, I found a "Lizzy B" blog with pictures of the previous BBC in Evanston:
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/bobby%20pictures.jpg) (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/bobby%20pictures.jpg)
click to enlarge
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/lizzibs%20office.jpg) (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/7655/1596/1600/lizzibs%20office.jpg)
click to enlarge
Obviously, she really likes little stuffed cow toys...
http://mobileopiaterx.blogspot.com/
Is there a reason you posted only those 2 photos of the clinic? Or are they the only ones provided to the city that were leaked to you?
SHIT! you're on to me. Yesterday, as I was leaving the Wishbone, I saw OC just being seated. As I walked past, I said, "hi Mike", and he said "oh hi! [name redacted]...say, can you do me a huge favor? I've got these two prints of the BCC clinic that were taken by one of my spies several years ago, in anticipation of Lizzy B coming to Berwyn. Would you be so kind as to post them on Brian's awesome Berwyn Talk bulletin board? Here's a sawbuck for your trouble."
I pocketed the cash and ran home to fulfill my mission.
Yeah, my mistake. I didn't look at the entire post and missed the link. But given the politics surrounding this issue. . .
Silk, java and Shelley are very nice people. But putting "nice" aside (which I have to do with lots of other people too), whether I like it, you like, they like it ... the fact remains that they have a direct link to the DCOB via momma and daddy. It's a simple statement. I'm sure Shelley did a great job when she spoke regarding the clinic. Java did a good job when he ran for School Board, except for one thing. He mentioned he could not sell the citizens the idea of raising taxes for the schools. His message should have pounded on that he would make sure the taxes already in place would be spent wisely. The citizens are already hip that money is being squandered. From what I hear, and without a dime of extra taxes being collected, our schools are actually doing better. Scores are up along with graduation rate. Is this rumor incorrect? Perhaps, now that we are watching and communiting with each other on the subject, certain ppl are hesitant to try to pull a fast one. I think if he and Ted would have sold themselves more as "watch dogs", they might have done a little better than they did against the Cicero crowd. A financial SWAT team if you will.
thank you goodforberwyn for being honest. If it came from me ..... oh brother.
Quote from: java on July 18, 2008, 12:49:37 PM
Quote from: Shelley on July 16, 2008, 02:38:05 PM
OK, so far we have the first two:
1) He's not O'Connor
2) Gerry Galloway is O'Connor's campaign manager
Anyone up to the challenge of giving a reason that DOESN'T refer to O'Connor?? What is Lovero's vision for Berwyn? What will he do differently? Who is his campaign manager? What are his positions on the budget, health insurance, lawsuit coverage for city officials (The Phelan factor)? What specific appointed positions would he eliminate if elected? I've looked at the minutes of city council meetings for the past 3 1/2 years. I see no ideas coming from him. Maybe that will change in the next few months. I hope
so.
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)
Nice job Apat! You are the first to come up with a pro-Lovero point from this other thread!
#3 - the Titzers will get their trees trimmed whenever they ask!! woohooo!!!
The 'IN', as you term it, I believe comes from standing up and stating your name, getting involved, and demanding good government. If that is smoke and its going up your ass, then its because your ass is on your shoulders.
I'm done with you Apat. But I am not done with Berwyn. Good day.
Mark Titzer
Mark......THANKYOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
java ... mark
if "The 'IN', as you term it, I believe comes from standing up and stating your name, getting involved, and demanding good government. If that is smoke and its going up your ass, then its because your ass is on your shoulders."
Then why aren't YOU at council meetings? puff puff puff
Quote from: good4berwyn on July 18, 2008, 02:20:55 PM
its no secret that mark rec'd palm card help from the dems when he ran.
for school board?
Then yes, it is a secret...the only palm cards I saw were PURPLE.
Quote from: good4berwyn on July 18, 2008, 02:20:55 PM
its no secret that mark rec'd palm card help from the dems when he ran. he also has attended BRDO fundraisers over the years.
The Dems did not hand out palm cards on election day in April of 2007. The Dems did not endorse anyone and Bob Lovero stated that he was staying out of the school board races.
The only people who handed out palm cards (that I saw) on election day were the canddiates who were running and their family memebrs and close friends - me, Mark Titzer, Shelley Titzer, Marge Paul, Jeff Boyajian and his wife, Frank Amaro and Alex Bojo. I did runs around Berwyn every 2 hours that day and those were the ONLY people I saw handing out palm cards.
No one from the Dems were handing out palm cards and no one from the IVB was handing out palm cards that day. it was just the candidates themselves.
So, Mark (nor anyone else for that matter) were NOT on any Dem palm cards in April 2007 because there were no Democratic palm cards!!
Ted
(P.S. I can corroborate the fact that Shelley is backing Bonster for mayor. She is planning on a Draft Bonster campaign after the November election.) ;)
Quote from: good4berwyn on July 18, 2008, 02:20:55 PM
its no secret that mark rec'd palm card help from the dems when he ran.
Wrong.
Quote from: good4berwyn on July 18, 2008, 02:20:55 PM
he also has attended BRDO fundraisers over the years.
That's funny. Wrong again. I did go to one 'I love Berwyn' dinner (DCOB, not BRDO right?) when running for school board in Feb? 2007. People told me I needed to go and shake some hands. I remember I had a beer with Scoon. The Skylight's not really my style...
Quote from: java on July 18, 2008, 03:47:04 PM
Quote from: good4berwyn on July 18, 2008, 02:20:55 PM
its no secret that mark rec'd palm card help from the dems when he ran.
Wrong.
Quote from: good4berwyn on July 18, 2008, 02:20:55 PM
he also has attended BRDO fundraisers over the years.
That's funny. Wrong again. I did go to one 'I love Berwyn' dinner (DCOB, not BRDO right?) when running for school board in Feb? 2007. People told me I needed to go and shake some hands. I remember I had a beer with Scoon. The Skylight's not really my style...
...that'll earn ya some points!
I apologize in advance for not using the quote button to address each comment. Too much to respond to, I can't keep up. Instead, I'll just begin another list. Here are some things my mom and/or dad like that I don't:
1. Reality TV
2. overcooked asparagus
3. Orland Park
4. air conditioners in the bedroom
5. sugar on strawberries
6. Books about serial killers (ok, I like those, too.)
7. Going to City Council Meetings
If Mark and I need our trees trimmed, we'll scrape together the cash to pay privately. If you've seen the trees in the parkway in front of our house, you'd know that we won't need PW to trim those for another 20 years. I wish my front porch was shaded! This whole mentality of giving money to political candidates to get a favor or protection or whatever is really not how I roll.
I'm honestly just asking questions. You see, that is how I make up my mind about who to vote for. I don't think we've ever attended a BRDO fundraiser...maybe Mark did when he was invited to speak as a candidate for school board? Sometime people confuse me with my younger sister who looks a lot like me and has attended many. We actually don't do much at the prime fundraiser hour because we are usually putting our 3 kids to bed.
My message at the meeting was sincere and my own ideas. I don't think I spoke to anyone about what I was going to say ahead of time. It is kind of overwhelming to have gotten the varied responses to that message. It is a little scary how suspicious people get when you make a little sense. Whether you believe me or not, I meant it when I said that I thought this whole methadone clinic should remain non-political if that is at all possible in our town.
I don't believe you, Mark.
I want to see you go running nude down Maple Ave. with your ass painted purple.
Uhmm... that petition was circulated TWO years ago and the referendum was on the ballot in November 2006. Maybe you miissed the election.
Ted, No I did not miss the election, and if I said that I did not sign the petition, that should imply without saying that I did not vote for it. As for him being against the methadone clinic, why is he going around the neighborhood that he lives in asking if we (the neighbors) had seen the Evanston location and seen that it was not a horrible place would we consider it? To me that implies that he is for it or had considered it.
Shelly,
You are rite. Sometimes you look at a duck, and say it is a duck, then, everyone looks at you like you have a third eye, and they say it is a horse.
That is kind of what happened the other nite on Grove.
As the mother of Shelley, I know her the best and can tell you, she is truthful, honest and not
intimidated by anyone. She can hold her own, and though we may differ on all kinds of issues, the
bond that holds our family together becomes stronger every day. Our differences in thinking make very
interesting times at family gatherings!
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 02:34:17 PM
Silk, java and Shelley are very nice people. But putting "nice" aside (which I have to do with lots of other people too), whether I like it, you like, they like it ... the fact remains that they have a direct link to the DCOB via momma and daddy. It's a simple statement. I'm sure Shelley did a great job when she spoke regarding the clinic. Java did a good job when he ran for School Board, except for one thing. He mentioned he could not sell the citizens the idea of raising taxes for the schools. His message should have pounded on that he would make sure the taxes already in place would be spent wisely. The citizens are already hip that money is being squandered. From what I hear, and without a dime of extra taxes being collected, our schools are actually doing better. Scores are up along with graduation rate. Is this rumor incorrect? Perhaps, now that we are watching and communiting with each other on the subject, certain ppl are hesitant to try to pull a fast one. I think if he and Ted would have sold themselves more as "watch dogs", they might have done a little better than they did against the Cicero crowd. A financial SWAT team if you will.
thank you goodforberwyn for being honest. If it came from me ..... oh brother.
I'm sorry... I'm new at this and posted the quote above before entering my response.
I've been following this discussion for several days and was encouraged by the passion and energy to fight against Berwyn being home to the next chicagoland meth clinic. I was just checking back in to see if there was any new news or actions and was disgusted to see the direction this thread has taken, specifically allegations made against Shelley and Mark Titzer. It's that kind of mentality that will continue to hold this city back from it's true potential. God forbid this community were to actually make something of itself.... who would apat have to be critical of. It's people like Shelley and Mark that have the brains, the heart and the courage to try to make a difference... try to make it better for everyone. I respect and admire the time and committment they give. So do hundreds of others in this town. Thank you, Mark and Shelley.
I'll be signing off now and returning to the Berwyn Family List chat where folks know a little something 'bout teaming and respect. Ciao!
Robin Scharpf
I have lived in Berwyn for the last 10 years in the Depot District and I am against the methadone clinic.
I have a friend that was a heroin addict for 2 years and has now been on methadone for 5 years. I can't help but think he is getting high from the methadone. When the clinic lowers his dosage he tells them he's getting sick and having withdrawl symptoms and what does the clinic do, they up the dosage. This is how addicts continue to get high, tell the clinic your getting sick and they'll give you more.
My friend at one point even asked them to lower his dosage and they told him No. This is how these clinics stay in business, no patients, no business. So instead of him being addicted to Heroin he's now addicted to methadone.
Methadone is basically, controlled Heroin, it contains synthetic opiates.
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 02:34:17 PM
... From what I hear, and without a dime of extra taxes being collected, our schools are actually doing better. Scores are up along with graduation rate. Is this rumor incorrect? Perhaps, now that we are watching and communiting with each other on the subject, certain ppl are hesitant to try to pull a fast one. I think if he and Ted would have sold themselves more as "watch dogs", they might have done a little better than they did against the Cicero crowd. A financial SWAT team if you will.
Financially, District 201 is doing better (as are all other districts in the state) due to a large influx of additional state aid - for District 201 it was projected to be $1.6M last year and an additional $1.6M more this year (if the legislation gets through). The increase has helped out the other school districts as well. But even with the influx of new state aid, District 201 is still running a deficit in the range of $4M to $5M per year (on a budget of around $90M).
But, Apat, where do you think that funding is coming from? Whose "dime" is paying for the additional funding? Do you really think the state is going to be able to fund additional money for education like this without taking tax money out of your pocket in some way? :o
As for academics, a report last year stated that 30% of the students at Morton are failing math and only 6% are completing the core curriculum. Is that what you consider a success? I am glad that the new board is addressing that problem with organizational changes and the hiring of ciurriculum director and curriculum leads.
But it is too bad I didn't have a crystal ball that would have predicted the state would increase funding by $400 per student. Then again, if I had had a crystal ball, I would be rich and retired by now. :D ;D :D
But, don't kid yourself, you as a taxpayer are going to be paying for that additional state funding.
Ted
Quote from: Mom of 2 / LLROB on July 18, 2008, 04:01:32 PM
... As for him being against the methadone clinic, why is he going around the neighborhood that he lives in asking if we (the neighbors) had seen the Evanston location and seen that it was not a horrible place would we consider it? To me that implies that he is for it or had considered it.
OK. Well, I was one of the people who received the email that Oak Park Spartan referred to and I also spoke to Tony on the train coming home Thursday night. He sounded to me like he was against the clinic in both the email and in our conversation Thursday night.
Maybe he was just investigating to see if there was anyone who knew anything about the clinic in Evanston? Just because someone is trying to find out information about the clinic in Evanston does not mean that they are for the clinic in Berwyn.
I don't know. You are the one who spoke to him. I know when I talked to him, he was definitely against the clinic.
Ted
District 201 is still running a deficit in the range of $4M to $5M per year (on a budget of around $90M).
That is pathetic Ted 90 million and this is what we get? Given the dollar amount
per student, that is a joke.
If one was to compare every top tier parochial school in the entire metro area (with a near
100% graduation/college ed rate), that rate would be less than HALF of that. Guess one gets what you pay for.
Disgusting.
Parochial schools do not have the state and/or taxpayer piggy banks as safety nets.
Quote from: clicks on July 18, 2008, 05:45:26 PM
I'm sorry... I'm new at this and posted the quote above before entering my response.
I've been following this discussion for several days and was encouraged by the passion and energy to fight against Berwyn being home to the next chicagoland meth clinic. I was just checking back in to see if there was any new news or actions and was disgusted to see the direction this thread has taken, specifically allegations made against Shelley and Mark Titzer. It's that kind of mentality that will continue to hold this city back from it's true potential. God forbid this community were to actually make something of itself.... who would apat have to be critical of. It's people like Shelley and Mark that have the brains, the heart and the courage to try to make a difference... try to make it better for everyone. I respect and admire the time and commitment they give. So do hundreds of others in this town. Thank you, Mark and Shelley.
I'll be signing off now and returning to the Berwyn Family List chat where folks know a little something 'bout teaming and respect. Ciao!
Robin Scharpf
Robin, as much as I admire your sentiment (on the surface...I don't know you from a stray kitten), I have to take you task a bit. The ONLY way to make a difference is to toss your ass in the political arena.
[FULL DISCLOSURE: I'm a self-centered asshole. I've been approached on several occasions to to enter said arena, and have declined. I think I would be quite good at it, to a certain degree, but life's too short, and I have bigger things that occupy the major parts of my life...at least bigger to me. Things on my stretch of Oak Park Ave. could change very little...and I'd still be very happy. But, having said all that, there is nothing I would like more than a good, measured dose of gentrification for Berwyn.]
So, stick with your "family group"...but if you want stuff to happen, you have to get dirty. That's just the way it is.
[FULL DISCLOSURE #2: I am married, middle-aged, don't have children...and don't want any]
Quote from: Bear on July 18, 2008, 10:08:31 PM
District 201 is still running a deficit in the range of $4M to $5M per year (on a budget of around $90M).
That is pathetic Ted 90 million and this is what we get? Given the dollar amount
per student, that is a joke.
If one was to compare every top tier parochial school in the entire metro area (with a near
100% graduation/college ed rate), that rate would be less than HALF of that. Guess one gets what you pay for.
Disgusting.
Private schools also get to pick and choose their students.
Quote from: apatriot on July 18, 2008, 11:59:08 AM
Nice try, Patsy. It's easy to laugh when you're in Orland.
You and I both know contributions = favors. Soooooooo, even if they are not supporters ... they will still benefit because of the contributions coming from you and hubby. That's just how it is. Those who give have an IN. Your kids may not give ... but you DO, and politicians try not to bite the hand that feeds them, therefore, any accommodation when asked for to show gratitude is put forth. It's nothing to be ashamed about. But let's stop the denials shall we?
Both Shelly and Mark have worked very hard to help our schools and students, to help others take notice. What they have done for Berwyn is way more than you or I have done. When you meet them you can tell they are honest, hardworking people and their interests in Berwyn are the same as mine and probably yours. I doubt very much that they would risk what they have accomplished thus far. Your assumption is off target. You can't assume that they will benefit from her parent's affiliations especially if those affiliations are not hers.
And, BTW, if you have ever been to a C.A.R.E.S. meeting you would know that Shelly is always level-headed and her questions are always posed in the same tone.
please, please ... sounds like we are setting the couple up to run for something. but under what banner?
Apat...You are so out of touch with reality that it is incredible.
We understand, not to worry, George's will be open by 7am,
and you will then be able to retain whatever feeble grip you have in life
in the morning.
Come on, guys, we can do this. 62 more posts to break the BTF record.
Quote from: Bear on July 18, 2008, 10:08:31 PM
District 201 is still running a deficit in the range of $4M to $5M per year (on a budget of around $90M).
That is pathetic Ted 90 million and this is what we get? Given the dollar amount
per student, that is a joke.
If one was to compare every top tier parochial school in the entire metro area (with a near
100% graduation/college ed rate), that rate would be less than HALF of that. Guess one gets what you pay for.
Disgusting.
If you mean that the $$ spent per pupil would be less than 1/2 that, I think you'd be wrong. Morton spends about $10,000 per pupil and, I think, that is about what an average private school tuition costs, actually probably a bit less. I think the main reason for the difference in academic success rate of private and public schools is that the private schools can pick and choose their students.
Quote from: Boris on July 18, 2008, 10:28:51 PM
Robin, as much as I admire your sentiment (on the surface...I don't know you from a stray kitten), I have to take you task a bit. The ONLY way to make a difference is to toss your ass in the political arena.
Boris, FYI, Robin is a former District 100 board member and is involved in several community organizations.
[FULL DISCLOSURE: Robin and I both serve on the board of directors of the Berwyn Citizens Aligned to Renew Education for Students and her husband plays in a kickass band called Goat Rodeo that has played at several CARES fundraisers.]
Ted
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 12:32:28 AM
Come on, guys, we can do this. 62 more posts to break the BTF record.
i certainly want to be part of "history"
methinks there's an ordinance being drafted as we speak to ban these clinics in Berwyn
to be voted on tuesday night.
"shelley for sainthood" - of course i mean this in jest as i've met you & like you
mike
Quote from: k6s2zvfw on July 19, 2008, 08:10:29 AM
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 12:32:28 AM
Come on, guys, we can do this. 62 more posts to break the BTF record.
i certainly want to be part of "history"
The history to be broken is the "Lovable, Single Male..." discussion on pitbulls. While only around 60 posts are needed to break the post record, it would still need around 800 views to break the Views record.
But, that discussion thread had a long life and really had two or three re-incarnations. This thread has reached 5,000 views in only 10 days!! (It's only the second thread to break the 5,000 view mark).
So, I guess that's what Berwynites get passionate about - pit bulls and methadone clinics... :D ;D :D
Ted
Quote from: Ted on July 19, 2008, 08:14:26 AM
So, I guess that's what Berwynites get passionate about - pit bulls and methadone clinics... :D ;D :D
I'd say its more political stupidity, hypocrisy, and spin doctoring which gets Berwynites all riled up.
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that I can't conceive any possible scenario where someone would vote YAY for a methadone clinic at the aforementioned address.
If a ordinance is being drafted to ban these types of clinics in Berwyn, then I would
think this issue has been worth the discussion. I hope everyone (who should be) was involved
and the grandstanding is over with.
This issue and new ordinances of placements of Meth clinics should continue to go beyond
Berwyns borders to higher levels of state government.
I don't think that a Berwyn ordinance can BAN methadone clinics outright.
Quote from: SILK on July 19, 2008, 09:13:09 AM
I don't think that a Berwyn ordinance can BAN methadone clinics outright.
i'm "guessing" we might find out shortly.
legal minds out there.......... does it make a difference because berwyn is home rule?
mike
No.
Home rule can't trump a Federal Statute and the Constitution.
Interesting post from FoPa (http://forestparkforums.com/forum_posts.asp?TID=2613&PID=48950#48950)...
So it is your opinion that a zoning ordinance can be created that will cover every possible scenario & make everyone happy? Or is it just important that it covers those that you know & like?
Fact is, no one cares about zoning until it effects them. Then all the sudden it's a call for the heads of any elected official that doesn't give you what you want regardless of how idiotic your request is.
The zoning ordinance is only beyond most because most never care to take the time to read it, let alone understand it. It really isn't all that complicated, especially when it comes to variances. There are 7 standards to meet in order to be entitled to a variance. Meet them & you should get the variance, don't meet them & you don't. Of course that is really not the way it works. Most pandering politicians roll over as soon as some resident tells them they won't vote for them if they don't vote in favor of their variance.
The zoning ordinance is certainly less complicated than say, the Illinois Motor Vehicle Code. We all have to abide by that regardless of whether we've read it, understand it & agree with it. If you violate it & get caught, you get a ticket.
Why is zoning any different? Mainly because everyone that needs one thinks they are entitled to it & if they don't get it, they come here & complain how unfair it all is & how mean the politicians are for not giving it to them.
Here is a communication rom #1 to council
Quote from: SILK on July 19, 2008, 09:13:09 AM
I don't think that a Berwyn ordinance can BAN methadone clinics outright.
It looks like item F10 on the 7/22 city council agenda is a proposal for a referendum to ban methadone clinics in Berwyn.
Silk, if the banning of methadone clinics occured via a referendum, would that make a difference?
Ted
No.
At least based on my cursory knowledge of the ADA
The Constitution is the Constitution.
If a stutue/ordinance is unconstitutional, it remains so, irrespective of HOW its enacted.
Now there might be some loophole in the ADA which I haven't uncovered, but as of now, I would say no.
Quote from: Bear on July 19, 2008, 09:50:55 AM
Here is a communication rom #1 to council
Did she send that to the 1st Ward or was that from the DCoB email hotline? ;D
Quote from: Bear on July 03, 2008, 06:09:54 PM
For a whippersnapper not wearing "old man diapers" one would think you would
have the acumen to convert a pdf to jpeg for the ease of readability in BTF.
so much for that...
Quote from: SILK on July 19, 2008, 09:55:39 AM
No
The Constitution is the Constitution.
Im no lawyer but i think your wrong. Owners of a for profit business are not a protected class. The clinic owners have the same rights as the scrapbook lady who got turned down. Meth users may fall under a protected class but Berwyn is not dealing with them. They are dealing with a profit making privately owned business and that business must follow the laws or gudlines of the city. Businesses are not protected classes. Berwyn is dealing with a business not a group of protected people.
Quote from: Bear on July 19, 2008, 09:50:55 AM
Here is a communication rom #1 to council
Interesting.
Just wondering why Nona wasn't jumping on the "legaslative activism" bandwagon during the two years she was "in contact" with the Bobby Buonauro Clinic?
Why now?
Quote from: mustang54 on July 19, 2008, 10:14:55 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 19, 2008, 09:55:39 AM
No
The Constitution is the Constitution.
Im no lawyer but i think your wrong. Owners of a for profit business are not a protected class. The clinic owners have the same rights as the scrapbook lady who got turned down. Meth users may fall under a protected class but Berwyn is not dealing with them. They are dealing with a profit making privately owned business and that business must follow the laws or gudlines of the city. Businesses are not protected classes. Berwyn is dealing with a business not a group of protected people.
They will sue you under the ADA (they've basically intimated as much), and disabled people ARE a protected class. Do the owners have "standing" to sue? Interesting question. I haven't read through ADA. When I do, I'll let you know.
Quote from: SILK on July 19, 2008, 10:17:52 AM
Quote from: Bear on July 19, 2008, 09:50:55 AM
Here is a communication rom #1 to council
Interesting.
Just wondering why Nona wasn't jumping on the "legaslative activism" bandwagon during the two years she was "in contact" with the Bobby Buonauro Clinic?
Why now?
Out of touch with the residents who don't drink with you regularly?
That's only on Tuesday nights. How about the six other days of the week?
Quote from: SILK on July 19, 2008, 10:22:39 AM
Quote from: mustang54 on July 19, 2008, 10:14:55 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 19, 2008, 09:55:39 AM
No
The Constitution is the Constitution.
Im no lawyer but i think your wrong. Owners of a for profit business are not a protected class. The clinic owners have the same rights as the scrapbook lady who got turned down. Meth users may fall under a protected class but Berwyn is not dealing with them. They are dealing with a profit making privately owned business and that business must follow the laws or gudlines of the city. Businesses are not protected classes. Berwyn is dealing with a business not a group of protected people.
They will sue you under the ADA (they've basically intimated as much), and disabled people ARE a protected class. Do the owners have "standing" to sue? Interesting question. I haven't read through ADA. When I do, I'll let you know.
Silk i would think they can sue all they want but it will get tossed. They cant use the ADA because they themselves are not disabled and being discriminated against. Let us know what you find but i'd bet they wouldnt have a chance in court.
That's what I meant by "standing" mustang.
Couldn't our angle be proximity to schools? Strip clubs, adult book stores, etc. have those restrictions do they not? It would seem to me that drug addicts seeking a fix would fit in with those.
Let's see, so far this administration which includes Lovero on council has offered us Food4Less, a store front church and a meth clinic. Truly big thinkers.
Key phrase:
this administration which includes Lovero on council . . .
which includes the Gang of Four on council.
Quote from: apatriot on July 19, 2008, 01:24:32 PM
Let's see, so far this administration which includes Lovero on council has offered us Food4Less, a store front church and a meth clinic. Truly big thinkers.
Gail: you just don't get it, do you?
Mark
what am I supposed to get Mark?
tell me. tell us all.
I can not reason with you Gail, unfortunately, so I will not try. I will say the Council did not bring you those entities to try and set shop in Berwyn. Thankfully, we did and will prevent them from opening in Berwyn.
The City and the BDC have tried to think outside of the box and have attempted to bring in all types of businesses. The only one who wants a Food4Less is the manager of Cerma Plaza, and even had that deal taken place, it was 7 years in the making. Seven.
Mark
I got that the first time when Food4Less was discussed here. You confirm my point that this administration has FAILED to bring the type of businesses that would make Berwyn a thriving City. I think we all GET that, MARK. I wasn't singling you out ... you are part of a collective body, and a member of the IVB. As a citizen and defender of Berwyn, it is within my right to state that neither the IVB, the Democrats, nor the Republicans have any clue on how to develop and better Berwyn. Proof is in the pudding. We are in stagnation. Like a small pool of water that is only fit for mosquitos to spawn within, hence meth clinics, store front churches.
Quote from: markweiner on July 19, 2008, 02:14:20 PM
I can not reason with you Gail, unfortunately, so I will not try. I will say the Council did not bring you those entities to try and set shop in Berwyn. Thankfully, we did and will prevent them from opening in Berwyn.
The City and the BDC have tried to think outside of the box and have attempted to bring in all types of businesses. The only one who wants a Food4Less is the manager of Cerma Plaza, and even had that deal taken place, it was 7 years in the making. Seven.
Mark
I heard that the Mayor mentioned at the last council meeting that
he "tried to get a Food 4 Less" into Cermak Plaza which the aldermen voted down. This was during the OC's speech about how he has tried "everything" to increase revenues (which would have helped him avoid his layoffs), but the aldermen vote down all of his great ideas, including the Food 4 Less. So this was his great idea, but the only one who wants it is the Plaza manager? Maybe I should get a copy of the video...
Here's the candidate (or is he?) who has plans to run in the 3rd Ward. Mark, can you tell us more as to his qualifications?
http://beautifulberwyn.com
On a quick review ... I see:
"To donate online by paypal you can donate to chris@beautifulberwyn.com
To donate by mail, write to:
Stavrianos for Alderman
3111 Wisconsin Ave.
Berwyn, IL 60402"
Stavrianos for Alderman is not coming up at the Illinois State Board of Elections website. Since I am a person that doesn't know anything, can one who is a candidate for Alderman solicit donations to his personal email address? especially in consideration that Illinois State Board of Elections has no record of him.
Quote from: apatriot on July 19, 2008, 04:29:37 PM
Here's the candidate (or is he?) who has plans to run in the 3rd Ward. Mark, can you tell us more as to his qualifications?
http://beautifulberwyn.com
On a quick review ... I see:
"To donate online by paypal you can donate to chris@beautifulberwyn.com
To donate by mail, write to:
Stavrianos for Alderman
3111 Wisconsin Ave.
Berwyn, IL 60402"
Stavrianos for Alderman is not coming up at the Illinois State Board of Elections website. Since I am a person that doesn't know anything, can one who is a candidate for Alderman solicit donations to his personal email address? especially in consideration that Illinois State Board of Elections has no record of him.
Thanks this is the only piece of the puzzle missing. I wondered why he got to talk that night. All the other talking heads made sense
Quote from: Bennifer on July 19, 2008, 04:27:05 PM
Quote from: markweiner on July 19, 2008, 02:14:20 PM
I can not reason with you Gail, unfortunately, so I will not try. I will say the Council did not bring you those entities to try and set shop in Berwyn. Thankfully, we did and will prevent them from opening in Berwyn.
The City and the BDC have tried to think outside of the box and have attempted to bring in all types of businesses. The only one who wants a Food4Less is the manager of Cerma Plaza, and even had that deal taken place, it was 7 years in the making. Seven.
Mark
I heard that the Mayor mentioned at the last council meeting that he "tried to get a Food 4 Less" into Cermak Plaza which the aldermen voted down. This was during the OC's speech about how he has tried "everything" to increase revenues (which would have helped him avoid his layoffs), but the aldermen vote down all of his great ideas, including the Food 4 Less. So this was his great idea, but the only one who wants it is the Plaza manager? Maybe I should get a copy of the video...
Bennifer- Does it really matter who tried to bring in Food 4 Less, a new business that would have also brought in more tax dollars and help ease the lay-off situation, into Berwyn? The point is it was not a good fit and the Alderman voted it down I assumed based on the feed-back they got from their ward residents. I think what is REALLY interesting is how these same 4 Alderman failed to get their wards input when voting on a methadone clinic.
BTW incase you have not seen it I have something for you at; http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=5802.60
Bear, Cubbie07, Bennifer and BPat,
What I gave you were arguably the top ten reason why I am voting for the OC. My posting is no love fest, if you READ it does state that I would vote for someone better if they were running. So now instead of critiquing my top ten list please give me your top ten list as to why I should consider voting for Lovero? I'll even give you the number one reason;
1) He's not the OC
2)
3)
4)
5)
6)
7)
8 )
9)
10)
Quote from: Bennifer on July 19, 2008, 04:27:05 PM
I heard that
"I heard that..."Yeah, maybe you should get a copy of the video . . .
Yeah, that's all you hear from this guy-"I heard that", "somebody told me", etc....
Quote from: apatriot on July 19, 2008, 04:29:37 PM
Here's the candidate (or is he?) who has plans to run in the 3rd Ward. Mark, can you tell us more as to his qualifications?
Yes, I can.
He's new to Berwyn. Perfect.
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 06:17:56 PM
Quote from: apatriot on July 19, 2008, 04:29:37 PM
Here's the candidate (or is he?) who has plans to run in the 3rd Ward. Mark, can you tell us more as to his qualifications?
Yes, I can.
He's new to Berwyn. Perfect.
And he's Greek. OPA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D ;D :D
(P.S. Why is tgoddess' name appearing in bright red now as I write this? Has this discussion crossed the line into the red? )
Quote from: Ted on July 19, 2008, 06:26:40 PM(P.S. Why is tgoddess' name appearing in bright red now as I write this? Has this discussion crossed the line into the red? )
http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=5828.0
Be careful. She's got an itchy trigger finger. ;)
The entire board is awaiting silk or bons to make a final bad move
LOL!!!!
Take a look around pal, you're n he minority. The gang of TWO.
[quote}
(P.S. Why is tgoddess' name appearing in bright red now as I write this? Has this discussion crossed the line into the red? )
[/quote]
I don't know about you, Ted, but every whenever her name appears at the top of a thread, "Lady in Red" comes blaring out of my speakers. Oh...the power!
apatriot got it right , i think, on the last page.
it's location.
just spent the last seven hours with my friend, mr. david visk of lyons.
he told me lyons passed an ordinance restricting specific uses (porno places as an example)
or methodone clinics to the "light industrial area along 47th, mostly east of joliet rd."
perfectly legal.
mike
Mike,
YU CAN RESTRICT such a use I'm nt sure yu cn altogether BAN it.
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 05:42:09 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 19, 2008, 04:27:05 PM
I heard that
"I heard that..."
Yeah, maybe you should get a copy of the video . . .
Speaking of video, is someone going to post video of the "rally?"
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 01:28:20 AM
Speaking of video, is someone going to post video of the "rally?"
Here ya go, Bon:
http://www.youtube.com/v/ZNeq2Utm0nU&hl=en
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 01:28:20 AM
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 05:42:09 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 19, 2008, 04:27:05 PM
I heard that
"I heard that..."
Yeah, maybe you should get a copy of the video . . .
Speaking of video, is someone going to post video of the "rally?"
Why post a video of the witch hunt, I mean rally, here? After all, the IVB posters here are the gospel... I believe everything they say so I don't need to see the video. I'll watch Soul Plane instead.
Simply put, because the video unquestinably dispels any bs the known "spinsters" are trying to pass off as gospel here n BTF.
People can see, and judge, for themselves.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 20, 2008, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 01:28:20 AM
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 05:42:09 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 19, 2008, 04:27:05 PM
I heard that
"I heard that..."
Yeah, maybe you should get a copy of the video . . .
Speaking of video, is someone going to post video of the "rally?"
Why post a video of the witch hunt, I mean rally, here? After all, the IVB posters here are the gospel... I believe everything they say so I don't need to see the video. I'll watch Soul Plane instead.
You're embarrassed about the actions of those whose drippings you suck, Bennifer.
Jesus. If you have nothing to say, why bother wiping your lips off?
Quote from: Bennifer on July 20, 2008, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 01:28:20 AM
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 05:42:09 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 19, 2008, 04:27:05 PM
I heard that
"I heard that..."
Yeah, maybe you should get a copy of the video . . .
Speaking of video, is someone going to post video of the "rally?"
Why post a video of the witch hunt, I mean rally, here? After all, the IVB posters here are the gospel... I believe everything they say so I don't need to see the video. I'll watch Soul Plane instead.
Bennifer- Did they already open the methadone clinic or have you been hanging around Evanston?
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 01:33:56 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 20, 2008, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 01:28:20 AM
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 05:42:09 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 19, 2008, 04:27:05 PM
I heard that
"I heard that..."
Yeah, maybe you should get a copy of the video . . .
Speaking of video, is someone going to post video of the "rally?"
Why post a video of the witch hunt, I mean rally, here? After all, the IVB posters here are the gospel... I believe everything they say so I don't need to see the video. I'll watch Soul Plane instead.
You're embarrassed about the actions of those whose drippings you suck, Bennifer.
Jesus. If you have nothing to say, why bother wiping your lips off?
If
I have nothing to say???? Probably 75% of your 8,000+ posts consist of you quoting someone (e.g., "I heard that"), usually out of context. I'm the one waiting for
you to say something original here. You claim you have no allegiance to either the IVB or the DCOB, yet every other post you make is critical of the latter. All you are is a closeted IVB sympathizer (the IVB version of Bill O'Reilly, who claims to live in a no-spin zone). You should stick to your mildly informative posts about local eateries --- at least someone here might find those useful.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 20, 2008, 09:02:41 PM
If I have nothing to say???? Probably 75% of your 8,000+ posts consist of you quoting someone (e.g., "I heard that"), usually out of context.
LOL...you made that up, ay? Nice work, there, guy/girl/whatever you are.
I haven't lied about your Doms, yet.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 20, 2008, 09:02:41 PM
You claim you have no allegiance to either the IVB or the DCOB, yet every other post you make is critical of the latter.
So? Most of mine are in response to whiny little crybabies like you, Bear, BP...I've shit enough on the IVB, but there's so much worse to say about your people it's too damn easy. Try again.
ANY WHY DO YOU CARE? Tell us, your position within the Berwyn Dems. It's obvious you're in close at the very least - you must have something to gain by kissing their collective sphincter...
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 09:14:45 PM
I've shit enough on the IVB, but there's so much worse to say about your people it's too damn easy.
BINGO!
Hit the nail on the head.
While the IVB has been nowhere near the model of efficiency during the last three years, its still no contest as to who is worse. Not even close. The "new" DCOB has proven time and again to be nothing but same ole, same ole..................
Pick an issue, and you'll see.
Union employees.
Non involvement/deferrment to school board on 201 issues.
Budget.
etc., etc., etc.,..................................
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 09:14:45 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 20, 2008, 09:02:41 PM
If I have nothing to say???? Probably 75% of your 8,000+ posts consist of you quoting someone (e.g., "I heard that"), usually out of context.
LOL...you made that up, ay? Nice work, there, guy/girl/whatever you are.
I haven't lied about your Doms, yet.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 20, 2008, 09:02:41 PM
You claim you have no allegiance to either the IVB or the DCOB, yet every other post you make is critical of the latter.
So? Most of mine are in response to whiny little crybabies like you, Bear, BP...I've shit enough on the IVB, but there's so much worse to say about your people it's too damn easy. Try again.
ANY WHY DO YOU CARE? Tell us, your position within the Berwyn Dems. It's obvious you're in close at the very least - you must have something to gain by kissing their collective sphincter...
bon,
you know you da man. didn't realize you had over 8,000 posts, pretty impressive.
now, in how many other posts have you used the word "sphincter" ??? (just wondering)
also, since this post is sort of about addictions, i must confess to a recent one.
friday morning in the shower, i realize i'm completely out of my softsoap "pomegranite",
facing no other choice, i have to use my wife's "shea butter". let me tell you boys something,
i am one good smelling dude. i am now jonesing for it, big-time. bon, if you could help me
out with a picture of it for the folks, i would be most appreciative.
thanks, mike
I use the pomegranite also.
Quote from: k6s2zvfw on July 20, 2008, 09:39:36 PM
bon, if you could help me
out with a picture of it for the folks, i would be most appreciative.
No problem.
(http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i144/Mumble312/butt.jpg) (http://i71.photobucket.com/albums/i144/Mumble312/butt.jpg)
Click to Enlarge
Bonster,
Your signature SHOULD say, no matter who the DCOB finds to post on Lovero's behalf, they only serve to make him look worse.
I can't believe some of the things I read on this site.
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 01:33:56 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 20, 2008, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 01:28:20 AM
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 05:42:09 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 19, 2008, 04:27:05 PM
I heard that
"I heard that..."
Yeah, maybe you should get a copy of the video . . .
Speaking of video, is someone going to post video of the "rally?"
Why post a video of the witch hunt, I mean rally, here? After all, the IVB posters here are the gospel... I believe everything they say so I don't need to see the video. I'll watch Soul Plane instead.
You're embarrassed about the actions of those whose drippings you suck, Bennifer.
Jesus. If you have nothing to say, why bother wiping your lips off?
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 01:33:56 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 20, 2008, 01:04:03 PM
Quote from: Bonster on July 20, 2008, 01:28:20 AM
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 05:42:09 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 19, 2008, 04:27:05 PM
I heard that
"I heard that..."
Yeah, maybe you should get a copy of the video . . .
Speaking of video, is someone going to post video of the "rally?"
Why post a video of the witch hunt, I mean rally, here? After all, the IVB posters here are the gospel... I believe everything they say so I don't need to see the video. I'll watch Soul Plane instead.
You're embarrassed about the actions of those whose drippings you suck, Bennifer.
Jesus. If you have nothing to say, why bother wiping your lips off?
Bon,
Pretty impressive creative writing. I gotta say the visual gives me goosebumps. Who do you thing you are Mickey Fricking Spillane
http://www.readybb.com/nama_wespeakmethadone/viewtopic.php?p=86229&sid=9AA7B57C838EF5FC282565AAF5A16945
The following is the last post on that site. Looks like supporters of methadone clinics are going to make one last stand, based on the last post in their blog:
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject:
LOL...I love you Zenith...Have I told you lately? Well, come see my little addition to the NIMBY world. I just added a new page with the only song I could find about Backyards but the chorus is pretty appropriate. And i used the background picture from the backyard from the Hitchcock movie "Rear Window". Remember the one with Jimmy Stewart and Grace Kelley? Here is the link but I don't have my articles added yet.
http://findingnormal.webs.com/nimby.htm
Anyway, here is some info. everyone might want related to that article: There will be a COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE Meeting in Berwyn
TUESDAY, JULY 22, 2008 from 7pm to 8pm and a Regular meeting of the Berwyn City Council on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 from 8pm to 10pm. I urge everyone to contact Mayor Michael O'Connor
Work 708-788-2660 ext. 230
Fax 708-788-2567
moconnor@ci.berwyn.il.us
and tell him about the money and lives these clinics save. Also, you can contact the following alderman: Ald. Nona Chapman, who voted for the clinic in her 1st Ward, but said that she opposed it, and that the city would face a lawsuit if the clinic were denied. She also stated, "If I voted only with my heart and the passion for the area, I would have said 'No!' She can be reached at
1st Ward
Nona N. Chapman
3416 Home Ave.
Home 708-484-6662
aldchapmanward1@aol.com
Also, Ald. Robert Lovero (7th) indicated to the residents that he might reverse his position on the clinic, which he voted last week to approve.
"In my heart, I don't want a methadone clinic. I operated with my head," Lovero said. "Was my reasoning wrong? Possibly. Now I am more willing to reconsider my vote." He can be reached at 7th Ward
Robert J. Lovero
1824 Wenonah Ave.
Home 708-788-1885
7thward@berwyn-il.gov
This info was obtained at the Berwyn city website at http://www.berwyn-il.gov/
I feel like maybe we can prevent the Aldermen from changing their minds before they reconvene on the 22cd. And maybe turn the mayor around. It is worth a try
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject:
Thanks!
_________
Zenith
C.M.A. (Certified Methadone Advocate)
Austin, Texas
.
Quote from: Ted on July 21, 2008, 05:34:28 AM
The following is the last post on that site. Looks like supporters of methadone clinics are going to make one last stand, based on the last post in their blog:
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject:
LOL...I love you Zenith...Have I told you lately? Well, come see my little addition to the NIMBY world. I just added a new page with the only song I could find about Backyards but the chorus is pretty appropriate. And i used the background picture from the backyard from the Hitchcock movie "Rear Window". Remember the one with Jimmy Stewart and Grace Kelley? Here is the link but I don't have my articles added yet.
http://findingnormal.webs.com/nimby.htm
Anyway, here is some info. everyone might want related to that article: There will be a COMMITTEE OF THE WHOLE Meeting in Berwyn
TUESDAY, JULY 22, 2008 from 7pm to 8pm and a Regular meeting of the Berwyn City Council on Tuesday, July 22, 2008 from 8pm to 10pm. I urge everyone to contact Mayor Michael O'Connor
Work 708-788-2660 ext. 230
Fax 708-788-2567
moconnor@ci.berwyn.il.us
and tell him about the money and lives these clinics save. Also, you can contact the following alderman: Ald. Nona Chapman, who voted for the clinic in her 1st Ward, but said that she opposed it, and that the city would face a lawsuit if the clinic were denied. She also stated, "If I voted only with my heart and the passion for the area, I would have said 'No!' She can be reached at
1st Ward
Nona N. Chapman
3416 Home Ave.
Home 708-484-6662
aldchapmanward1@aol.com
Also, Ald. Robert Lovero (7th) indicated to the residents that he might reverse his position on the clinic, which he voted last week to approve.
"In my heart, I don't want a methadone clinic. I operated with my head," Lovero said. "Was my reasoning wrong? Possibly. Now I am more willing to reconsider my vote." He can be reached at 7th Ward
Robert J. Lovero
1824 Wenonah Ave.
Home 708-788-1885
7thward@berwyn-il.gov
This info was obtained at the Berwyn city website at http://www.berwyn-il.gov/
I feel like maybe we can prevent the Aldermen from changing their minds before they reconvene on the 22cd. And maybe turn the mayor around. It is worth a try
Posted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 2:52 pm Post subject:
Thanks!
_________
Zenith
C.M.A. (Certified Methadone Advocate)
Austin, Texas
.
So, they are going to prove to all nimby's that a methadone clinic is going to open in Berwyn like it or not. The persons who own said clinic, live a block away do not want to be nimby's they must open a clinic in their own community. What is a certified methadone advocate?
Thanks for posting this Ted.
Quote from: Rizzo on July 21, 2008, 06:38:43 AM
... What is a certified methadone advocate?
Rizzo,
I was wondering the same thing... this is the first time I had ever heard that someone had to be certified to be an advocate.
Ted
Quote from: Ted on July 21, 2008, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: Rizzo on July 21, 2008, 06:38:43 AM
... What is a certified methadone advocate?
Rizzo,
I was wondering the same thing... this is the first time I had ever heard that someone had to be certified to be an advocate.
Ted
I cannot imagine who would certify such a thing?
www.berwynpoliceblotter.com (http://www.berwynpoliceblotter.com/)
Noooo! Not the Depot District!
Heroin apparently available just a short walk from hospital
July 14, 2008, 1:22 AM
Police were sent to MacNeal Hospital to retrieve illegal drugs found on a patient. A 34-year-old registered nurse reportedly found a 50-year-old male patient injecting his intravenous line with heroin. He told police the patient had been told repeatedly not to leave his room due to his condition, yet the man had been trying to get out of the room for two days. Most recently, the nurse said, the man stated he wanted ice cream. He was told to stay put while the nurse went to fetch the ice cream. But when the nurse returned, the patient was missing. The patient was soon found walking back into the hospital from outside. The nurse—now very suspicious—began checking on the man more frequently.
During one check, the nurse said, he caught the man with a syringe in his hand, injecting something directly into his IV tube. The nurse took away the syringe and made the patient hand over the rest of the contraband, which consisted of five small foil packets hidden inside a potato chip bag, along with a small red bag containing paraphernalia used to "cook" and ingest controlled substances. The patient said he works for a gear cutting business in Cicero. The investigation is ongoing.
Posted by Editor on 07/19 at 06:26 PM
(http://www.heroinaddiction2.com/img/rigg%20&%20spoon.jpg)
###
Historic
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 09:01:18 AM
www.berwynpoliceblotter.com (http://www.berwynpoliceblotter.com/)
Noooo! Not the Depot District!
Heroin apparently available just a short walk from hospital
July 14, 2008, 1:22 AM
Police were sent to MacNeal Hospital to retrieve illegal drugs found on a patient. A 34-year-old registered nurse reportedly found a 50-year-old male patient injecting his intravenous line with heroin. He told police the patient had been told repeatedly not to leave his room due to his condition, yet the man had been trying to get out of the room for two days. Most recently, the nurse said, the man stated he wanted ice cream. He was told to stay put while the nurse went to fetch the ice cream. But when the nurse returned, the patient was missing. The patient was soon found walking back into the hospital from outside. The nurse—now very suspicious—began checking on the man more frequently.
During one check, the nurse said, he caught the man with a syringe in his hand, injecting something directly into his IV tube. The nurse took away the syringe and made the patient hand over the rest of the contraband, which consisted of five small foil packets hidden inside a potato chip bag, along with a small red bag containing paraphernalia used to "cook" and ingest controlled substances. The patient said he works for a gear cutting business in Cicero. The investigation is ongoing.
Posted by Editor on 07/19 at 06:26 PM
(http://www.heroinaddiction2.com/img/rigg%20&%20spoon.jpg)
###
Historic
Whatever, addicts want it they get it wherever they are its their lifes work.
I guess what I don't understand is why they don't put the clinic within the confines of the hospital if it's a "treatment facility" dealing with "the most controlled substance" out there.
If it's so profitable-- wouldn't the hospital be interested?
I find it fascinating that selling methadone at a profit is legal!
Why not put the clinic into Harlem Cermak mall-- the place is a ghost town anyway. Can we enforce the "blight" ordinance on the whole mall?
I don't understand why a town can't say that they don't want a methadone clinic in their downtown? If it's so hard to say "no" to then why don't they have one in downtown Oak Park... or Wilmette?
Quote from: chandasz on July 21, 2008, 09:16:32 AM
I guess what I don't understand is why they don't put the clinic within the confines of the hospital if it's a "treatment facility" dealing with "the most controlled substance" out there.
If it's so profitable-- wouldn't the hospital be interested?
I find it fascinating that selling methadone at a profit is legal!
Why not put the clinic into Harlem Cermak mall-- the place is a ghost town anyway. Can we enforce the "blight" ordinance on the whole mall?
I don't understand why a town can't say that they don't want a methadone clinic in their downtown? If it's so hard to say "no" to then why don't they have one in downtown Oak Park... or Wilmette?
Good point. Is there a clinic in Burr Ridge? Lots of space in Oakbrook.
The Depot District is not Berwyn's "downtown" by any stretch, and Cermak Plaza is no ghost town, it just looks like it.
Regardless, why put one in Cermak Plaza? Do the folks around there want it any more than DD area residents?
Actually, I believe threre is a methdne clinic in Burr Ridge In an ndustrial park
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 09:24:32 AM
The Depot District is not Berwyn's "downtown" by any stretch, and Cermak Plaza is no ghost town, it just looks like it.
Regardless, why put one in Cermak Plaza? Do the folks around there want it any more than DD area residents?
Better parking, Bigger choice of stores
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 09:25:00 AM
Actually, I believe threre is a methdne clinic in Burr Ridge In an ndustrial park
Sure Inverness and Crystal tree as well
Quote from: Rizzo on July 21, 2008, 09:25:55 AM
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 09:24:32 AM
The Depot District is not Berwyn's "downtown" by any stretch, and Cermak Plaza is no ghost town, it just looks like it.
Regardless, why put one in Cermak Plaza? Do the folks around there want it any more than DD area residents?
Better parking, Bigger choice of stores
LOL, Rizzo!
They shouldn't be driving - train access in the DD! ;D
Then again, they could rob the Shoe Carnival like everyone else to buy more methadone...
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 09:36:38 AM
Quote from: Rizzo on July 21, 2008, 09:25:55 AM
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 09:24:32 AM
The Depot District is not Berwyn's "downtown" by any stretch, and Cermak Plaza is no ghost town, it just looks like it.
Regardless, why put one in Cermak Plaza? Do the folks around there want it any more than DD area residents?
Better parking, Bigger choice of stores
LOL, Rizzo!
They shouldn't be driving - train access in the DD! ;D
Then again, they could rob the Shoe Carnival like everyone else to buy more methadone...
They can drive their addiction is controlled by the methadone. Everything awwright.
There are 2 Methadone clinics in Cicero (5635 W Roosevelt and 1849 S Cicero) under the name Chicago Treatment and Counseling Centers Inc.
Quote from: Rizzo on July 21, 2008, 07:06:42 AM
Quote from: Ted on July 21, 2008, 07:02:49 AM
Quote from: Rizzo on July 21, 2008, 06:38:43 AM
... What is a certified methadone advocate?
Rizzo,
I was wondering the same thing... this is the first time I had ever heard that someone had to be certified to be an advocate.
Ted
I cannot imagine who would certify such a thing?
Maybe you could run a quick Google search and find out. You might actually learn something instead of just gossiping about it.
Quote from: chandasz on July 21, 2008, 09:16:32 AM
I guess what I don't understand is why they don't put the clinic within the confines of the hospital if it's a "treatment facility" dealing with "the most controlled substance" out there.
If it's so profitable-- wouldn't the hospital be interested?
I find it fascinating that selling methadone at a profit is legal!
Why not put the clinic into Harlem Cermak mall-- the place is a ghost town anyway. Can we enforce the "blight" ordinance on the whole mall?
I don't understand why a town can't say that they don't want a methadone clinic in their downtown? If it's so hard to say "no" to then why don't they have one in downtown Oak Park... or Wilmette?
It's funny, with all the talk of other suburbs, no one has mentioned Downers Grove, which has a methadone clinic right downtown on Main St., just a block or so north of the BNSF line. Downers Grove might not be Oak Brook or Burr Ridge, but it ain't Berwyn, either.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 10:43:21 AM
It's funny, with all the talk of other suburbs, no one has mentioned Downers Grove, which has a methadone clinic right downtown on Main St., just a block or so north of the BNSF line. Downers Grove might not be Oak Brook or Burr Ridge, but it ain't Berwyn, either.
...they also don't have homes nestled in downtown, either...their business extends a block on either side of their main street, which bisects their train tracks as opposed to running along them as in the Depot District.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DGDT.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DGDT.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DDDT.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DDDT.jpg)
Main St., Downers Grove Depot District
Quote from: chandasz on July 21, 2008, 09:16:32 AM
I guess what I don't understand is why they don't put the clinic within the confines of the hospital if it's a "treatment facility" dealing with "the most controlled substance" out there.
If it's so profitable-- wouldn't the hospital be interested?
I find it fascinating that selling methadone at a profit is legal!
Why not put the clinic into Harlem Cermak mall-- the place is a ghost town anyway. Can we enforce the "blight" ordinance on the whole mall?
I don't understand why a town can't say that they don't want a methadone clinic in their downtown? If it's so hard to say "no" to then why don't they have one in downtown Oak Park... or Wilmette?
Who said it was "so profitable?" Just because something is for profit doesn't mean it's profitable. Trust me, I have my own business.
Why is selling methadone at a profit so facinating, but selling a cancer drug, or any other drug for that matter, at a profit not so facinating?
Quote from: chandasz on July 21, 2008, 09:16:32 AM
I find it fascinating that selling methadone at a profit is legal!
Heroin dealers don't have a very strong lobby in DC.
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 10:49:55 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 10:43:21 AM
It's funny, with all the talk of other suburbs, no one has mentioned Downers Grove, which has a methadone clinic right downtown on Main St., just a block or so north of the BNSF line. Downers Grove might not be Oak Brook or Burr Ridge, but it ain't Berwyn, either.
...they also don't have homes nestled in downtown, either...their business extends a block on either side of their main street, which bisects their train tracks as opposed to running along them as in the Depot District.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DGDT.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DGDT.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DDDT.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DDDT.jpg)
Main St., Downers Grove Depot District
I thought one of the main arguments was that the clinic will destroy the beloved DD (where I have a business, by the way.) On the surface, it would seem the DG clinic dispels that notion, their downtown area is thriving. As for homes being "nestled" in the DD, that's a curious choice of words, but it make a nice sort of sound bite.
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 10:49:55 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 10:43:21 AM
It's funny, with all the talk of other suburbs, no one has mentioned Downers Grove, which has a methadone clinic right downtown on Main St., just a block or so north of the BNSF line. Downers Grove might not be Oak Brook or Burr Ridge, but it ain't Berwyn, either.
...they also don't have homes nestled in downtown, either...their business extends a block on either side of their main street, which bisects their train tracks as opposed to running along them as in the Depot District.
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DGDT.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DGDT.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DDDT.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DDDT.jpg)
Main St., Downers Grove Depot District
I'm curious as to why you didn't include a photo of the entire DD, just the, what, half that is west of Grove. And why did you see fit to outline that half, but left to the imagination where homes might be in the DG photo? Homes are actually only a block from the clinic, if Google maps streatview and satellite view are correct.
Doesn't dispel squat The facts nd circumstnces surrunding each and every applcation for a clinic of this sort are different.
Fact is, the Berwyn DD can't afford this ype of "hit", for a multitude of reasons.
Looks like a lot more planning went into the Downers Grove picture than the much smaller Berwyn Depot area.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 11:17:23 AM
And why did you see fit to outline that half, but left to the imagination where homes might be in the DG photo? Homes are actually only a block from the clinic, if Google maps streatview and satellite view are correct.
That's just it...the homes aren't that close...very few...some condos, that's about it. I'm very familiar with the area...their business district is HUGE compared to Berwyn's Depot District.
Quote from: Rizzo on July 21, 2008, 11:33:44 AM
Looks like a lot more planning went into the Downers Grove picture than the much smaller Berwyn Depot area.
Yep. They are at the same level of zoom.
Crime data published by the National Association of Realtors shows Total Crime Rates for zip codes 60202 (Evanston - current site of BBC) and 60804 (Cicero - current site of CT&CC) to be higher than the Total Crime Rate for zip code 60402 (Berwyn - proposed site of new BBC).
Total Crime in 60202 (Evanston): 123
Total Crime in 60804 (Cicero): 75
Total Crime in 60402 (Berwyn): 72
Quote from: tango on July 21, 2008, 11:53:25 AM
Crime data published by the National Association of Realtors shows Total Crime Rates for zip codes 60202 (Evanston - current site of BBC) and 60804 (Cicero - current site of CT&CC) to be higher than the Total Crime Rate for zip code 60402 (Berwyn - proposed site of new BBC).
Total Crime in 60202 (Evanston): 123
Total Crime in 60804 (Cicero): 75
Total Crime in 60402 (Berwyn): 72
Thanks for the useless info. What's the date of the report? What crimes were committed? Murders or vandalism. Rapes or burglaries. And 75 vs 72? I'm surprised you even included Cicero.
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 11:30:43 AM
Doesn't dispel squat The facts nd circumstnces surrunding each and every applcation for a clinic of this sort are different.
Fact is, the Berwyn DD can't afford this ype of "hit", for a multitude of reasons.
Maybe to the irrational it doesn't. One of the basic complaints is that a methadone clinic per se will kill a business district. No ifs, and or buts, or special circumstances. DG is proof that that is not the case.
I'd like to hear your multitude of reasons. But please, don't include any hearsay, rumors, gossip, rhetoric, etc.
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 11:39:33 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 11:17:23 AM
And why did you see fit to outline that half, but left to the imagination where homes might be in the DG photo? Homes are actually only a block from the clinic, if Google maps streatview and satellite view are correct.
That's just it...the homes aren't that close...very few...some condos, that's about it. I'm very familiar with the area...their business district is HUGE compared to Berwyn's Depot District.
Quote from: Rizzo on July 21, 2008, 11:33:44 AM
Looks like a lot more planning went into the Downers Grove picture than the much smaller Berwyn Depot area.
Yep. They are at the same level of zoom.
Yeah, but the Berwyn photo barely includes the building that will house the clinic. Wouldn't it make more sense to center the photo on the building to get a better perspective?
ESDA...You ask for input and say no hearsay, gossip, etc and when I send you actual data and objective information you don't like it. This is a waste of time.
Quote from: tango on July 21, 2008, 12:26:13 PM
ESDA...You ask for input and say no hearsay, gossip, etc and when I send you actual data and objective information you don't like it. This is a waste of time.
I'm afraid this might be over your head, but here goes: From Wikipedia - "Lies, damned lies, and statistics" is part of a phrase attributed to Benjamin Disraeli and popularized in the United States by Mark Twain: "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." The semi-ironic statement refers to the persuasive power of numbers, and succinctly describes how even accurate statistics can be used to bolster inaccurate arguments.
Didn't anybody pay attention in school?
The problem comes down to PERCEPTION, which I'm sure Tony La can probably tell you first-hand, is key when people are looking to purchase real estate in an area. If the area is PERCEIVED to be a "good" one, (ie, highly-rated schools, low crime, thriving businesses), property values will increase accordingly. The fact is, whether or not this clinic may or may not bring in the crime some think it will, the PERCEPTION is that it will.
Explain how the clinic will go out of its way, above and BEYOND what another business (say, an italian beef stand) to prove to residents and other business owners that people (in and outside of Berwyn) will NOT perceive the area to be "bad" because of a methodone clinic?
It's sorta the same thing as the pitbull issue. There are wonderful, sweet pitbulls out there (though Ted would disagree with that), but the PERCEPTION is that they're dangerous and they're associated with a "bad element"--the kind residents don't want to see in in their neighborhood. And people may stay away...or businesses may leave BECAUSE of that perception, regardless of its validity.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 12:40:51 PM
Didn't anybody pay attention in school?
Yes, I did:
3 words: methadone, addiction, and profit:
From meriam webster online http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/methadone (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/methadone)
"a synthetic
addictive narcotic drug C21H27NO used especially in the form of its hydrochloride for the relief of pain and as a substitute narcotic in the
treatment of heroin addiction "
and:
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/addiction (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/addiction)
2:
compulsive need for and use of a
habit-forming substance...
broadly:
persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful
and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit)
Profit generally is the
making of gain in business activity
for the benefit of the owners of the business.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit)
1: a valuable return : gain
2: the excess of returns over expenditure in a transaction or series of transactions; especially :
the excess of the selling price of goods over their cost <emphasis added>
Enough said.
Quote from: java on July 21, 2008, 12:59:33 PM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 12:40:51 PM
Didn't anybody pay attention in school?
Yes, I did:
From meriam webster online http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/methadone (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/methadone)
"a synthetic addictive narcotic drug C21H27NO used especially in the form of its hydrochloride for the relief of pain and as a substitute narcotic in the treatment of heroin addiction "
and:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Profit)
Profit generally is the making of gain in business activity for the benefit of the owners of the business.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/profit)
1: a valuable return : gain
2: the excess of returns over expenditure in a transaction or series of transactions; especially : the excess of the selling price of goods over their cost
<emphasis added>
Enough said.
Your point is what? That you know how to look things up on the Internet? I think it's pretty well known now what methadone is. And is it some sort of revelation that businessowners are in business to make money? Even not-for-profits make money, they just use all of it to pay wages, buy supplies, pay rent, and reinvest in the business. Sorry, you'll have to do better. I give you a D (it would be an F, but hey, you tried.)
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:07:20 PM
Your point is what? That you know how to look things up on the Internet? I think it's pretty well known now what methadone is. And is it some sort of revelation that businessowners are in business to make money? Even not-for-profits make money, they just use all of it to pay wages, buy supplies, pay rent, and reinvest in the business. Sorry, you'll have to do better. I give you a D (it would be an F, but hey, you tried.)
My point is that this 'clinic' has been sold by some as altruistic and charitable, when in fact, it is nothing more than a business which profits from addiction and preys on repeat customers.
That business plan gets an F.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 11:39:33 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 11:17:23 AM
And why did you see fit to outline that half, but left to the imagination where homes might be in the DG photo? Homes are actually only a block from the clinic, if Google maps streatview and satellite view are correct.
That's just it...the homes aren't that close...very few...some condos, that's about it. I'm very familiar with the area...their business district is HUGE compared to Berwyn's Depot District.
Quote from: Rizzo on July 21, 2008, 11:33:44 AM
Looks like a lot more planning went into the Downers Grove picture than the much smaller Berwyn Depot area.
Yep. They are at the same level of zoom.
Yeah, but the Berwyn photo barely includes the building that will house the clinic. Wouldn't it make more sense to center the photo on the building to get a better perspective?
Gotcha...here's the other half:
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DDDT02.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DDDT02.jpg)
Depot District East
Quotenothing more than a business which profits from addiction and preys on repeat customers.
Starbucks!
Quote from: dukesdad on July 21, 2008, 01:20:33 PM
Quotenothing more than a business which profits from addiction and preys on repeat customers.
Starbucks!
Yes, exactly. That business plan gets an A (well, maybe a B, given the recent contraction). That is also the point. The owners shouldn't be afraid to say"just like Starbucks, this business sells addiction. Its hugely profitable. It will bring in all sorts of tax and traffic to the district." It's the hypocrisy and pretext that gets the F.
No recent retraction on White Castles!
"The Crave . . . "
Quote from: tgoddess on July 21, 2008, 12:56:25 PM
The problem comes down to PERCEPTION, which I'm sure Tony La can probably tell you first-hand, is key when people are looking to purchase real estate in an area. If the area is PERCEIVED to be a "good" one, (ie, highly-rated schools, low crime, thriving businesses), property values will increase accordingly. The fact is, whether or not this clinic may or may not bring in the crime some think it will, the PERCEPTION is that it will.
Explain how the clinic will go out of its way, above and BEYOND what another business (say, an italian beef stand) to prove to residents and other business owners that people (in and outside of Berwyn) will NOT perceive the area to be "bad" because of a methodone clinic?
It's sorta the same thing as the pitbull issue. There are wonderful, sweet pitbulls out there (though Ted would disagree with that), but the PERCEPTION is that they're dangerous and they're associated with a "bad element"--the kind residents don't want to see in in their neighborhood. And people may stay away...or businesses may leave BECAUSE of that perception, regardless of its validity.
You are correct, perception is the crux of the problem. How do you deal with a perception (any perception) based on false assumptions, faulty reasoning, and/or ignorance? With education. And that is what is missing. There's been no attempt to have a reasoned public discussion, with all parties present and, this is important, allowed to speak and answer questions. If that were to happen, who knows, the protesters might just end up with what they want. Or they might feel better about the clinic going in. But O'Connor has hijacked the issue, and I don't think there's any way now to get it on track.
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 01:19:53 PM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 12:17:26 PM
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 11:39:33 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 11:17:23 AM
And why did you see fit to outline that half, but left to the imagination where homes might be in the DG photo? Homes are actually only a block from the clinic, if Google maps streatview and satellite view are correct.
That's just it...the homes aren't that close...very few...some condos, that's about it. I'm very familiar with the area...their business district is HUGE compared to Berwyn's Depot District.
Quote from: Rizzo on July 21, 2008, 11:33:44 AM
Looks like a lot more planning went into the Downers Grove picture than the much smaller Berwyn Depot area.
Yep. They are at the same level of zoom.
Yeah, but the Berwyn photo barely includes the building that will house the clinic. Wouldn't it make more sense to center the photo on the building to get a better perspective?
Gotcha...here's the other half:
(http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DDDT02.jpg) (http://i203.photobucket.com/albums/aa238/mcr_312/Berwyn/DDDT02.jpg)
Depot District East
Thanks, but the red dot is on the wrong building. And putting the two halves together would give a proper overview of the area.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:30:01 PM
Thanks, but the red dot is on the wrong building.
That's Google Maps for ya! :D
Quote from: java on July 21, 2008, 01:17:33 PM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:07:20 PM
Your point is what? That you know how to look things up on the Internet? I think it's pretty well known now what methadone is. And is it some sort of revelation that businessowners are in business to make money? Even not-for-profits make money, they just use all of it to pay wages, buy supplies, pay rent, and reinvest in the business. Sorry, you'll have to do better. I give you a D (it would be an F, but hey, you tried.)
My point is that this 'clinic' has been sold by some as altruistic and charitable, when in fact, it is nothing more than a business which profits from addiction and preys on repeat customers.
That business plan gets an F.
I don't know who's selling it as alruistic and charitable, but it's not the owners. I suspect it to be backyard gossip you're referring to, or maybe something O'Connor's campaign manager cooked up.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:32:39 PM
I don't know who's selling it as alruistic and charitable, but it's not the owners. I suspect it to be backyard gossip you're referring to, or maybe something O'Connor's campaign manager cooked up.
Naa...I'd say this is all on the residents and BTF. If anything, the OC is following their lead on this. As are the Aldergoofs who are (may be) changing their votes.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 11:00:36 AM
Quote from: chandasz on July 21, 2008, 09:16:32 AM
I guess what I don't understand is why they don't put the clinic within the confines of the hospital if it's a "treatment facility" dealing with "the most controlled substance" out there.
If it's so profitable-- wouldn't the hospital be interested?
I find it fascinating that selling methadone at a profit is legal!
Why not put the clinic into Harlem Cermak mall-- the place is a ghost town anyway. Can we enforce the "blight" ordinance on the whole mall?
I don't understand why a town can't say that they don't want a methadone clinic in their downtown? If it's so hard to say "no" to then why don't they have one in downtown Oak Park... or Wilmette?
Who said it was "so profitable?" Just because something is for profit doesn't mean it's profitable. Trust me, I have my own business.
Why is selling methadone at a profit so facinating, but selling a cancer drug, or any other drug for that matter, at a profit not so facinating?
You mean to tell me methadone clinics aren't profitable?
Cancer drugs? You're comparing cancer to heroin addiction? Please don't insult those of us who have lost loved ones to cancer.
The reason selling methadone (as opposed to cancer drugs) for a profit is so "fascinating" is because a) it preys on the weak, b) it exacerbates an existing problem, and c) at some point, the addict has made a conscious choice to get high. The cancer victim has no choice whatsoever.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: tgoddess on July 21, 2008, 12:56:25 PM
The problem comes down to PERCEPTION, which I'm sure Tony La can probably tell you first-hand, is key when people are looking to purchase real estate in an area. If the area is PERCEIVED to be a "good" one, (ie, highly-rated schools, low crime, thriving businesses), property values will increase accordingly. The fact is, whether or not this clinic may or may not bring in the crime some think it will, the PERCEPTION is that it will.
Explain how the clinic will go out of its way, above and BEYOND what another business (say, an italian beef stand) to prove to residents and other business owners that people (in and outside of Berwyn) will NOT perceive the area to be "bad" because of a methodone clinic?
It's sorta the same thing as the pitbull issue. There are wonderful, sweet pitbulls out there (though Ted would disagree with that), but the PERCEPTION is that they're dangerous and they're associated with a "bad element"--the kind residents don't want to see in in their neighborhood. And people may stay away...or businesses may leave BECAUSE of that perception, regardless of its validity.
You are correct, perception is the crux of the problem. How do you deal with a perception (any perception) based on false assumptions, faulty reasoning, and/or ignorance? With education. And that is what is missing. There's been no attempt to have a reasoned public discussion, with all parties present and, this is important, allowed to speak and answer questions. If that were to happen, who knows, the protesters might just end up with what they want. Or they might feel better about the clinic going in. But O'Connor has hijacked the issue, and I don't think there's any way now to get it on track.
It's a bit hard to swallow this "we want to educate the public" defense now, AFTER the way this whole situation was presented/came to light. By not making the INITIAL information about the clinic VERY clear, the clinic owners have undermined their OWN progress/success because everything now, (in retropsect) is perceived as that something "sneaky" was that was going on.
And if you don't think people have a
reason to be distrustful, I'd wonder about your understanding of human nature.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:27:06 PM
Quote from: tgoddess on July 21, 2008, 12:56:25 PM
The problem comes down to PERCEPTION, which I'm sure Tony La can probably tell you first-hand, is key when people are looking to purchase real estate in an area. If the area is PERCEIVED to be a "good" one, (ie, highly-rated schools, low crime, thriving businesses), property values will increase accordingly. The fact is, whether or not this clinic may or may not bring in the crime some think it will, the PERCEPTION is that it will.
Explain how the clinic will go out of its way, above and BEYOND what another business (say, an italian beef stand) to prove to residents and other business owners that people (in and outside of Berwyn) will NOT perceive the area to be "bad" because of a methodone clinic?
It's sorta the same thing as the pitbull issue. There are wonderful, sweet pitbulls out there (though Ted would disagree with that), but the PERCEPTION is that they're dangerous and they're associated with a "bad element"--the kind residents don't want to see in in their neighborhood. And people may stay away...or businesses may leave BECAUSE of that perception, regardless of its validity.
You are correct, perception is the crux of the problem. How do you deal with a perception (any perception) based on false assumptions, faulty reasoning, and/or ignorance? With education. And that is what is missing. There's been no attempt to have a reasoned public discussion, with all parties present and, this is important, allowed to speak and answer questions. If that were to happen, who knows, the protesters might just end up with what they want. Or they might feel better about the clinic going in. But O'Connor has hijacked the issue, and I don't think there's any way now to get it on track.
I think O'conner rejects the idea as a 1st ward resident and as mayor. Bottom line is the residents do not want it in their neighborhood and are prepared to fight it any way we have to.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 12:01:43 PM
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 11:30:43 AM
Doesn't dispel squat The facts nd circumstnces surrunding each and every applcation for a clinic of this sort are different.
Fact is, the Berwyn DD can't afford this ype of "hit", for a multitude of reasons.
Maybe to the irrational it doesn't. One of the basic complaints is that a methadone clinic per se will kill a business district. No ifs, and or buts, or special circumstances. DG is proof that that is not the case.
I'd like to hear your multitude of reasons. But please, don't include any hearsay, rumors, gossip, rhetoric, etc.
A basic complaint of a methaodne clinic is that it attracts addicts and dealers. I deal with addicts and substance abusers on a daily basis. Without fail, they all mention methadone clinic sites as the #1 place to find a fix for heroin addicts. Are there statistics to support the claim? I'm not sure anyone is running out to conduct a survey on the subject matter any time soon. Nonetheless, that doesn't make it a ny less true.
The mulitude of reasons includes 1) the same reasons that compelled all the physicians in the building to oppose the clinic (unless of course you're going to tell us that you're more qualified than an MD to assess the pros and cons of a methadone clinic, maybe they're uninformed and uneducated as well :D) 2) its on the street level, 3) its in a business district that's STRUGGLING to get on its feet and does not need any more negative pr, perceived or real, and 4) the residents don't want it, just to name a few.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:27:06 PM
You are correct, perception is the crux of the problem. How do you deal with a perception (any perception) based on false assumptions, faulty reasoning, and/or ignorance? With education. And that is what is missing. There's been no attempt to have a reasoned public discussion, with all parties present and, this is important, allowed to speak and answer questions. If that were to happen, who knows, the protesters might just end up with what they want. Or they might feel better about the clinic going in. But O'Connor has hijacked the issue, and I don't think there's any way now to get it on track.
so you're telling us that the doctors in the medical building are ignorant, uneducated, and working on false assumptiosn and faulty reasoning?
btw, what type of business do YOU own in the DD?
Quote from: tony la on July 21, 2008, 02:10:44 PM
I think O'conner rejects the idea as a 1st ward resident and as mayor. Bottom line is the residents do not want it in their neighborhood and are prepared to fight it any way we have to.
as does everyone else in Berwyn except the Methadone Quartet, and even they have stated on principle they're against the clinic.
O'Connor hijacked the issue?
There are FOUR other aldermen who voted against it. And Liz Buonauro had an opportunity to convey her thoughts and made a circus act of it.
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 12:32:28 AM
Come on, guys, we can do this. 62 more posts to break the BTF record.
You guys are good.
SMASHING the record!
Where did all the Pitbull people go, anyway?
(Kudos to Allen)
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 02:00:24 PM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 11:00:36 AM
Quote from: chandasz on July 21, 2008, 09:16:32 AM
I guess what I don't understand is why they don't put the clinic within the confines of the hospital if it's a "treatment facility" dealing with "the most controlled substance" out there.
If it's so profitable-- wouldn't the hospital be interested?
I find it fascinating that selling methadone at a profit is legal!
Why not put the clinic into Harlem Cermak mall-- the place is a ghost town anyway. Can we enforce the "blight" ordinance on the whole mall?
I don't understand why a town can't say that they don't want a methadone clinic in their downtown? If it's so hard to say "no" to then why don't they have one in downtown Oak Park... or Wilmette?
Who said it was "so profitable?" Just because something is for profit doesn't mean it's profitable. Trust me, I have my own business.
Why is selling methadone at a profit so facinating, but selling a cancer drug, or any other drug for that matter, at a profit not so facinating?
You mean to tell me methadone clinics aren't profitable?
Cancer drugs? You're comparing cancer to heroin addiction? Please don't insult those of us who have lost loved ones to cancer.
The reason selling methadone (as opposed to cancer drugs) for a profit is so "fascinating" is because a) it preys on the weak, b) it exacerbates an existing problem, and c) at some point, the addict has made a conscious choice to get high. The cancer victim has no choice whatsoever.
I didn't say they're not profitable. I was just responding to your statement that they are "so profitable". I don't believe anyone has claimed them to be unusually profitable, which your statement implies.
Thank you for making my point about cancer drugs (which were just an example). You are correct, the cancer patient has no choice whatsoever. But do the drug companies take this into account? No. Neither do doctors or hospitals. They all charge for the products and services they sell to their "weak" (read ill) customers. Yet you bemoan the fact that drug users, who "made a conscious chose to get high" (but not necessarily addicted) are being preyed upon by having to pay for methadone? That defies logic. Also, not all methadone is dispensed to addicts who "chose to get high". I know the point has been made before, but some people who use methadone are doing so because of an addiction to legal narcotics presciibe by MD's.
And please introduce me to somebody who hasn't lost a "loved" one to cancer. How many people do you think haven't been impacted by what might be the greatest scourge known to humans.
God, I love stupid people. They're so easy.
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 02:13:28 PM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:27:06 PM
You are correct, perception is the crux of the problem. How do you deal with a perception (any perception) based on false assumptions, faulty reasoning, and/or ignorance? With education. And that is what is missing. There's been no attempt to have a reasoned public discussion, with all parties present and, this is important, allowed to speak and answer questions. If that were to happen, who knows, the protesters might just end up with what they want. Or they might feel better about the clinic going in. But O'Connor has hijacked the issue, and I don't think there's any way now to get it on track.
so you're telling us that the doctors in the medical building are ignorant, uneducated, and working on false assumptiosn and faulty reasoning?
btw, what type of business do YOU own in the DD?
Yes, there are uninformed and ignorant physicians, too. They're humans, after all, and just because you have an MD after your name doesn't mean you know all there is to know about all things healthcare related. And it just could be they're getting worked up by some of their patients.
I'll tell you what business I own if you'll come out of the shadows with your name and address.
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 02:17:45 PM
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 12:32:28 AM
Come on, guys, we can do this. 62 more posts to break the BTF record.
You guys are good. SMASHING the record!
Where did all the Pitbull people go, anyway?
(Kudos to Allen)
The pitbull thread had a "Gang of 4" also. Must be a trend in long threads. :D
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 02:17:45 PM
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 12:32:28 AM
Come on, guys, we can do this. 62 more posts to break the BTF record.
You guys are good. SMASHING the record!
Where did all the Pitbull people go, anyway?
(Kudos to Allen)
If things slow down I'll just start arguing with myself to get us over the top. It'll probably be more stimulating. I mean, mental masturbation is still masturbation, isn't it?
ESAD 1 Silk 0
Quote from: FedUp on July 21, 2008, 02:39:19 PM
ESAD 1 Silk 0
...listen to Felix...giving score before it's over.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 02:36:24 PMI mean, mental masturbation is still masturbation, isn't it?
No way, scotty!
Nothin' like rubbin' one off to BTF, though. :D
(sick, I know)
Bonster boy coming in to relieve Silk
Thats Love
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 02:17:33 PM
Quote from: tony la on July 21, 2008, 02:10:44 PM
I think O'conner rejects the idea as a 1st ward resident and as mayor. Bottom line is the residents do not want it in their neighborhood and are prepared to fight it any way we have to.
as does everyone else in Berwyn except the Methadone Quartet, and even they have stated on principle they're against the clinic.
O'Connor hijacked the issue?
There are FOUR other aldermen who voted against it. And Liz Buonauro had an opportunity to convey her thoughts and made a circus act of it.
Everyone else in Berwyn, huh. Let's see, crowd estimates for O'Connor rally 250-500. Berwyn population 55,000 +/-. Am I missing something?
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 02:25:31 PM
Yet you bemoan the fact that drug users, who "made a conscious chose to get high" (but not necessarily addicted) are being preyed upon by having to pay for methadone?
God, I love stupid people. They're so easy.
Sadly, you're just NOT gonna get much sympathy for people who MAKE THE CHOICE to use drugs because you'd have to be COMPLETELY STUPID to think that heroin ISN'T addictive. So if you CHOOSE to do heroin, are ARE choosing to become addicted.
That's just the way it is.
But feel free to keep calling the people you're trying to win over "stupid." I"m sure THAT'S helping.
fedup and esad,
twiddleydee and twiddleydum.
LOL!
nice try boys. keep fishing.
Don't need to reveal who I am as I'm not the party passing myself off as more qualified than a physician to render an opnion on the topic.
funny how your camp just keeps sending more minions to take on Silk after others are sent scurrying off.
Stick around boys, we'll have some fun......just not on your terms.
Quote from: FedUp on July 21, 2008, 02:45:38 PM
Bonster boy coming in to relieve Silk
Thats Love
Not like the love you suck from your leader, Mr. "I have more monikers than anyone else in Berwyn."
I'm really just relieving you of your love for the Methadone Man.
esad,
were you expecting the full 55,000 to show up in the municipal parking lot?
LOL!!!!
I'd say 500 or so people is a good sampling of public sentiment. if it wasn't, I don't think the methadone Quartet would be flip flopping. Unless of course you're telling us 54,500 other Berwyn residents are all gung ho about the methadone clinic.
Silk you mmust be the catcher?
Don't need to reveal who I am as I'm not the party passing myself off as more qualified than a physician to render an opnion on the topic.
Andy is that you?
Quote from: tgoddess on July 21, 2008, 02:52:30 PM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 02:25:31 PM
Yet you bemoan the fact that drug users, who "made a conscious chose to get high" (but not necessarily addicted) are being preyed upon by having to pay for methadone?
God, I love stupid people. They're so easy.
Sadly, you're just NOT gonna get much sympathy for people who MAKE THE CHOICE to use drugs because you'd have to be COMPLETELY STUPID to think that heroin ISN'T addictive. So if you CHOOSE to do heroin, are ARE choosing to become addicted.
That's just the way it is.
But feel free to keep calling the people you're trying to win over "stupid." I"m sure THAT'S helping.
Not trying win that one over. Just playing catch and release with the little fishy. What do you call a person who makes a stupid argument? Inadequately educated? Intellectually deprived? Cognitively disabled? Sorry, I'm not that PC.
I know I'm playing semantics, but people don't do heroin to get addicted. They do it to get high. People don't eat too much in order to get fat, but that's what happens. It's an unintended consequence, not a unanticipated one. Try to wrap your mind around the nuance.
FedUp,
I wsn't much of a baseball player as a kid, but I did enjoy playing qb in touch fotball. yuu remember thse days don't you fed Up? He'll of a WIdE RECEIVER you wre, I tell ya!
ESAD 2 Silky & Boneboy 0
Quote from: FedUp on July 21, 2008, 03:34:54 PM
ESAD 2 Silky & Boneboy 0
Nice work. I wasn't even in the argument.
FilledUp 0
People dn't eat to get fat, they OVERet nd get fat Its a conscius decision.
People don't do drugs to get addicted, but they DO partake in order to get high. Another conscious decision Both obesity and addiction are reasonably foreseeable consequences of CONSCIOUS DECISIONS.
Call it "nuance" if you wish, but people who do NOT see simple cause and effect relationships ARE stupid. And if you're NOT trying to convince people here why this clinic should open, what exactly is the POINT of your posts? My point about the "stupid" comment was to merely illustrate that all you're doing is HINDERING the cause of those who want this clinic here. If you'ld like to believe that insulting people is a way to convince people to do what you want, maybe you should have read a little more Dale Carnegie and watched a little less Don Rickles.
Frankly, I have ZERO compassion for the terminally stupid. This includes people who take drugs and DON'T think they'll become addicted or people who eat McDonalds everyday and DON'T think they'll get heart disease or folks who chainsmoke and think they won't get lung cancer or those who wander in the middle of the street and don't think they're gonna be hit by a car . Yup, I'm a heartless bitch, but ALL of those things are because of a CHOICE an individual has made and honestly, a strict Darwinist when it comes to those sorts of things. (When a junkie dies of an OD, I smile...just a little bit...knowing another idiot won't be procreating.)
But this is America and you're completely free to think that enabling the dangerous, addictive habits of people who CHOOSE to fuck up their lives is a thing that'll make people and other businesses flock to town. But don't think for a NYC minute there aren't a boatload of people (more than showed up at that rally) who think that's a load of crap.
And never underestimate the power of the people when they're motivated AND pissed off.
Game, set, and match.
Well, here is one of the pitbull people. We were at the rally. Congratulations on breaking the BTF record. This is a topic worthy of breaking the record.
Pitbulls and Methadone. It looks like these two topics bring out newbies and the "oldies" (ESAD and Fedup) who change their monikers so they can come back on. Seems some are afraid to be recognized.
esad,
were you expecting the full 55,000 to show up in the municipal parking lot?
LOL!!!!
I'd say 500 or so people is a good sampling of public sentiment. if it wasn't, I don't think the methadone Quartet would be flip flopping. Unless of course you're telling us 54,500 other Berwyn residents are all gung ho about the methadone clinic.
This was an excellent sampling of public sentiment. I spoke to many around me, most did not know about the Clinic until that day. Public knowledge is that "one letter represents a hundred" when it refers to a letter to your legislator. I wonder about rallies?
Today I received a phone call from a friend who still did not know about it. I referred my friend to this board to get caught up and we will both be at the City Council Meeting tomorrow. By the way, that was one more vote that Lovero lost.
As far as the ADA covering people with addiction. As a father of a child with Autism, this angers me. Most people with disabilities are either born with an issue or later in life are inflicted (for a lack of a better term)with a disalbility. The thought of someone purposely injecting themselves with herion or becoming addicted to pain killers etc, now having the right to the ADA is very upsetting. I'm sure when the ADA is up for reauthorization this is one subject that will be brought up to the legislators.
I believe I mentioned in an earlier post: I watched a love one addicted to herion become a prostitute etc. She did not rely on Methadone to kick the addiction. She knew that was giving up one addiction for another. She signed herself in and did it cold turkey. Not pretty, but she has a great life now.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 02:25:31 PM
I didn't say they're not profitable. I was just responding to your statement that they are "so profitable". I don't believe anyone has claimed them to be unusually profitable, which your statement implies.
http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2004/07/05/story5.html
(excerpt: Marc Roup's resignation June 23 from the medical staffing firm will give him the money and time he needs to start a new venture -- opening up methadone clinics in Pittsburgh and in South Florida to treat people battling heroin addictions.
"It's a very lucrative business, and being able to help people, too, is a good thing," Mr. Roup said. Mr. Roup estimates upfront costs of opening a clinic at about $1 million.
"I'm confident as soon as we would get up and running, it would immediately be filled to capacity," Mr. Roup said, noting that 350 patients could be treated at a clinic each week.
The methadone is bought at bulk prices with each patient paying between $90 and $100 a week to be on the program.
"You can easily clear millions a year out of one location," Mr. Roup said. I've seen first-hand how this help people," said Mr. Roup referring to an acquaintance. "And there's a lot of money to be made." Mr. Roup is currently working with several real estate brokers to scout locations for the venture which has not yet been named.
"We're trying to pick spots where we're not going to have a lot of controversy," Mr. Roup said. )
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 02:58:33 PM
fedup and esad,
twiddleydee and twiddleydum.
LOL!
nice try boys. keep fishing.
Don't need to reveal who I am as I'm not the party passing myself off as more qualified than a physician to render an opnion on the topic.
funny how your camp just keeps sending more minions to take on Silk after others are sent scurrying off.
Stick around boys, we'll have some fun......just not on your terms.
Actually, Silk, I am of the opinion that the DD, and Berwyn in general, won't benefit, from an economic development standpoint, by being home to a methadone clinic. In fact, both might suffer, at least temporarily, due to the negative publicity this has generated. That said, I think such a clinic would be a community asset, fulfillling an unmet (locally) need. I do not think my humble opinion matters much, and my opposing opinions aren't strong enough to rally for or against the clinic, I'll save that for a business that I think really deserves it.
Obviously, I'm not having a nervous breakdown over the spectre of "junkies in the bushes" (as posted by someone on a Tribune forum). My arguments have been directed more at trying to calm the hysteria this has created and to get people to do some rational thinking. If someone's afraid of the clinic moving in, fine. Just admit it and don't try to justify the fear with ill-informed gossip. I'm also doing battle with those still trying to actively fan the flames for, perhaps, other reasons.
ESAD:
"Fanning the flames for, perhaps, other reasons."?? Politically perhaps?
chandaz .... I already posted that MacNeal has their own drug treatment program. They don't need Sal/Sol and Liz.
Quote from: tgoddess on July 21, 2008, 03:41:56 PM
Call it "nuance" if you wish, but people who do NOT see simple cause and effect relationships ARE stupid. And if you're NOT trying to convince people here why this clinic should open, what exactly is the POINT of your posts? My point about the "stupid" comment was to merely illustrate that all you're doing is HINDERING the cause of those who want this clinic here. If you'ld like to believe that insulting people is a way to convince people to do what you want, maybe you should have read a little more Dale Carnegie and watched a little less Don Rickles.
Frankly, I have ZERO compassion for the terminally stupid. This includes people who take drugs and DON'T think they'll become addicted or people who eat McDonalds everyday and DON'T think they'll get heart disease or folks who chainsmoke and think they won't get lung cancer or those who wander in the middle of the street and don't think they're gonna be hit by a car . Yup, I'm a heartless bitch, but ALL of those things are because of a CHOICE an individual has made and honestly, a strict Darwinist when it comes to those sorts of things. (When a junkie dies of an OD, I smile...just a little bit...knowing another idiot won't be procreating.)
But this is America and you're completely free to think that enabling the dangerous, addictive habits of people who CHOOSE to fuck up their lives is a thing that'll make people and other businesses flock to town. But don't think for a NYC minute there aren't a boatload of people (more than showed up at that rally) who think that's a load of crap.
And never underestimate the power of the people when they're motivated AND pissed off.
See post 719.
I didn't call the clinc opponents stupid. I called Silk stupid because he/she/it wasn't making much sense (again) and thus the word stupid leaped to mind.
Quote from: apatriot on July 21, 2008, 03:59:20 PM
chandaz .... I already posted that MacNeal has their own drug treatment program. They don't need Sal/Sol and Liz.
For the umpteenth time, MacNeal does NOT have a treatment program. They detox addicts then send them elsewhere for treatment. Call the hospital for the details.
Quote from: Allen on July 21, 2008, 03:56:28 PM
ESAD:
"Fanning the flames for, perhaps, other reasons."?? Politically perhaps?
Perhaps.
Nice try ESAD.
I make perfect sense to the multitude of people who have come on her and rebutted your claims
Addiction is a human failing born of personal choice. The addict recovers only when he/she takes personal for the choices he/she has made.
To nalgize ddiction with autism, cancer, polo, muscular dystrophy, etc.... is , well, ..... I'll leave it for someone else to finish.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:27:06 PM
You are correct, perception is the crux of the problem. How do you deal with a perception (any perception) based on false assumptions, faulty reasoning, and/or ignorance?
Maybe that itself is a faulty assumption. I know many people who, with an open mind, researched methadone clinics and the possible impact one might have in Berwyn prior to deciding to attend the rally. Why do you assume that the perception of Berwyn residents that a methadone clinic is bad for Berwyn is based on false assumptions, faulty reasoning, and/or ignorance?
[Continued from SILK's post:]
(foolish, naive, dumb, insensitive, imbecilic, idiotic, silly, confused, dumber, dense, ignorant, doltish, lackwitted, lazy, illogical, insulting, goofy, and STUPID.)
Pick an adjective. C'mon, Esad, you can do it...
I make perfect sense to the multitude of people who have come on her and rebutted your claims
How nice it must be to live in your little box of a world and think people just salivate for your words of wisdom
Give me a beark
You want a beark [sic]?! I got your "beark" right here...
Quote from: Shelley on July 21, 2008, 04:19:59 PM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:27:06 PM
You are correct, perception is the crux of the problem. How do you deal with a perception (any perception) based on false assumptions, faulty reasoning, and/or ignorance?
Maybe that itself is a faulty assumption. I know many people who, with an open mind, researched methadone clinics and the possible impact one might have in Berwyn prior to deciding to attend the rally. Why do you assume that the perception of Berwyn residents that a methadone clinic is bad for Berwyn is based on false assumptions, faulty reasoning, and/or ignorance?
It's not an assumption, it's an observation. I was at O'Connor's rally, I've read and been involved in the BTF and also the Tribune's readers comments page. Many of the comments, both vocal and in the blogs, are clearly emotional and not of a well developed thought process. I don't care which side of the issue someone is on, as long as they arrived there based on reason and not hyperbole. To those who have accomplished this, more power to you. Please speak your mind. We need more people like you out there making your voices heard.
Quote from: Tommy on July 21, 2008, 04:20:57 PM
[Continued from SILK's post:]
(foolish, naive, dumb, insensitive, imbecilic, idiotic, silly, confused, dumber, dense, ignorant, doltish, lackwitted, lazy, illogical, insulting, goofy, and STUPID.)
Pick an adjective. C'mon, Esad, you can do it...
I can't. Too many choices. Kind of like trying to decide what to eat at Connie's.
Quote from: Tommy on July 21, 2008, 04:24:23 PM
You want a beark [sic]?! I got your "beark" right here...
Well give it back
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 04:43:11 PM
Quote from: Tommy on July 21, 2008, 04:20:57 PM
[Continued from SILK's post:]
(foolish, naive, dumb, insensitive, imbecilic, idiotic, silly, confused, dumber, dense, ignorant, doltish, lackwitted, lazy, illogical, insulting, goofy, and STUPID.)
Pick an adjective. C'mon, Esad, you can do it...
I can't. Too many choices. Kind of like trying to decide what to eat at Connie's.
Wait, I've got one, blithering idiot. Must be a special, I don't see it on the menu. (I just noticed lackwitted in the list, which seems to have fallen into disuse.)
ESAD 3 Silky, Bonerboy, Tammy -1
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 04:10:25 PM
Nice try ESAD.
I make perfect sense to the multitude of people who have come on her and rebutted your claims
Addiction is a human failing born of personal choice. The addict recovers only when he/she takes personal for the choices he/she has made.
To nalgize ddiction with autism, cancer, polo, muscular dystrophy, etc.... is , well, ..... I'll leave it for someone else to finish.
I have never attempted to "nalgize ddiction" with anything.
when all else fails, go there.
unfortunately, my palm Pilot doesn't always do what I want it to do.
What's your excuse?
Quote from: FedUp on July 21, 2008, 04:58:17 PM
ESAD 3 Silky, Bonerboy, Tammy -1
Filled up - can it.
I haven't argued the point, boy.
You're not making a case for anything based upon your not-so-illustrious posting history, just suckling your leader.
As the new Campaign Manager, you're not doing your guy any favors here.
Now bend over for Bobby.
Quote from: FedUp on July 21, 2008, 03:05:28 PM
Silk you mmust be the catcher?
Ladies and Gentlemen, the new
Campaign Manager for the DCoB! :D
Robert Lovero, you've got a real stable of winners there!
Why the stuttering, FilledUp? Your own thoughts getting you all hot & bothered?
Quote from: Allen on July 21, 2008, 03:43:12 PM
Well, here is one of the pitbull people. We were at the rally. Congratulations on breaking the BTF record. This is a topic worthy of breaking the record.
Pitbulls and Methadone. It looks like these two topics bring out newbies and the "oldies" (ESAD and Fedup) who change their monikers so they can come back on. Seems some are afraid to be recognized.
esad,
were you expecting the full 55,000 to show up in the municipal parking lot?
LOL!!!!
I'd say 500 or so people is a good sampling of public sentiment. if it wasn't, I don't think the methadone Quartet would be flip flopping. Unless of course you're telling us 54,500 other Berwyn residents are all gung ho about the methadone clinic.
This was an excellent sampling of public sentiment. I spoke to many around me, most did not know about the Clinic until that day. Public knowledge is that "one letter represents a hundred" when it refers to a letter to your legislator. I wonder about rallies?
Today I received a phone call from a friend who still did not know about it. I referred my friend to this board to get caught up and we will both be at the City Council Meeting tomorrow. By the way, that was one more vote that Lovero lost.
As far as the ADA covering people with addiction. As a father of a child with Autism, this angers me. Most people with disabilities are either born with an issue or later in life are inflicted (for a lack of a better term)with a disalbility. The thought of someone purposely injecting themselves with herion or becoming addicted to pain killers etc, now having the right to the ADA is very upsetting. I'm sure when the ADA is up for reauthorization this is one subject that will be brought up to the legislators.
I believe I mentioned in an earlier post: I watched a love one addicted to herion become a prostitute etc. She did not rely on Methadone to kick the addiction. She knew that was giving up one addiction for another. She signed herself in and did it cold turkey. Not pretty, but she has a great life now.
Sorry, but I just registered with this blog in the last week or so. I'm a newbie. But I did change my moniker, I think it's more appropriate.
Less than 1% of the population can be a fair representation, if you're taking a scientific poll.
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 05:03:13 PM
when all else fails, go there.
unfortunately, my palm Pilot doesn't always do what I want it to do.
What's your excuse?
Just trying to inject a little levity. Lighten up.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 05:06:45 PM
Quote from: Allen on July 21, 2008, 03:43:12 PM
Well, here is one of the pitbull people. We were at the rally. Congratulations on breaking the BTF record. This is a topic worthy of breaking the record.
Pitbulls and Methadone. It looks like these two topics bring out newbies and the "oldies" (ESAD and Fedup) who change their monikers so they can come back on. Seems some are afraid to be recognized.
esad,
were you expecting the full 55,000 to show up in the municipal parking lot?
LOL!!!!
I'd say 500 or so people is a good sampling of public sentiment. if it wasn't, I don't think the methadone Quartet would be flip flopping. Unless of course you're telling us 54,500 other Berwyn residents are all gung ho about the methadone clinic.
This was an excellent sampling of public sentiment. I spoke to many around me, most did not know about the Clinic until that day. Public knowledge is that "one letter represents a hundred" when it refers to a letter to your legislator. I wonder about rallies?
Today I received a phone call from a friend who still did not know about it. I referred my friend to this board to get caught up and we will both be at the City Council Meeting tomorrow. By the way, that was one more vote that Lovero lost.
As far as the ADA covering people with addiction. As a father of a child with Autism, this angers me. Most people with disabilities are either born with an issue or later in life are inflicted (for a lack of a better term)with a disalbility. The thought of someone purposely injecting themselves with herion or becoming addicted to pain killers etc, now having the right to the ADA is very upsetting. I'm sure when the ADA is up for reauthorization this is one subject that will be brought up to the legislators.
I believe I mentioned in an earlier post: I watched a love one addicted to herion become a prostitute etc. She did not rely on Methadone to kick the addiction. She knew that was giving up one addiction for another. She signed herself in and did it cold turkey. Not pretty, but she has a great life now.
Sorry, but I just registered with this blog in the last week or so. I'm a newbie. But I did change my moniker, I think it's more appropriate.
Less than 1% of the population can be a fair representation, if you're taking a scientific poll.
Oh, and congrats to the gal that kicked it cold turkey. I've never witnessed someone doing it, but I understand it's a terrible thing to go through. Not everyone is able to do it.
ESAD ... detox is treatment. The website states that there is no cure for drug addiction other than to get OFF drugs.
Meth clinics are no better than drug pushers ... they both do the same thing. Dispense drugs at a cost.
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 05:06:20 PM
Quote from: FedUp on July 21, 2008, 03:05:28 PM
Silk you mmust be the catcher?
Ladies and Gentlemen, the new Campaign Manager for the DCoB! :D
Robert Lovero, you've got a real stable of winners there!
Why the stuttering, FilledUp? Your own thoughts getting you all hot & bothered?
Now theres the simple mindedness we have all come to love and expect. As soon as someone doesen't agree with your gang they could only be DCOBer's.
If you only knew
Lighten up dude
Quote from: apatriot on July 21, 2008, 05:33:18 PM
ESAD ... detox is treatment. The website states that there is no cure for drug addiction other than to get OFF drugs.
Meth clinics are no better than drug pushers ... they both do the same thing. Dispense drugs at a cost.
You are incorrect. It is just a step in treatment Again, call the hospital and ask just what it is they offer. The following is from the office of National Drug Control Policy (www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/treat/treatment.html).
Medical Detoxification is a process whereby individuals are systematically withdrawn from addicting drugs in an inpatient or outpatient setting, typically under the care of a physician. Detoxification is sometimes called a distinct treatment modality but is more appropriately considered a precursor of treatment, because it is designed to treat the acute physiological effects of stopping drug use. Medications are available for detoxification from opiates, nicotine, benzodiazepines, alcohol, barbiturates, and other sedatives. In some cases, particularly for the last three types of drugs, detoxification may be a medical necessity, and untreated withdrawal may be medically dangerous or even fatal.
Detoxification is not designed to address the psychological, social, and behavioral problems associated with addiction and therefore does not typically produce lasting behavioral changes necessary for recovery. Detoxification is most useful when it incorporates formal processes of assessment and referral to subsequent drug addiction treatment.
Quote from: FedUp on July 21, 2008, 05:41:49 PM
Now theres the simple mindedness we have all come to love and expect. As soon as someone doesen't agree with your gang they could only be DCOBer's.
If you only knew
Lighten up dude
You're right.
Sorry, man.
Quote from: Bonster on July 21, 2008, 02:17:45 PM
Quote from: Bonster on July 19, 2008, 12:32:28 AM
Come on, guys, we can do this. 62 more posts to break the BTF record.
You guys are good. SMASHING the record!
You got dat right... <LOL> I get home and there have been over 100 posts in the last 12 hours alone!!!
Ah, for the good old days of arguing about Ace of Fades and the opening hours of George's Tavern.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:32:39 PM
I don't know who's selling it as alruistic and charitable, but it's not the owners. I suspect it to be backyard gossip you're referring to, or maybe something O'Connor's campaign manager cooked up.
The following sounds like altruism to me:
Quote from: Liz Buonauro on July 16, 2008, 11:01:47 AM
... It is important that "local decision makers and residents understand that treatment programs help communities by reducing many of the costly problems associated with active alcohol and other drug abuse and that treatment enables former users to return to productive lives". People need to learn about and understand methadone maintenance treatment (MMT): that MMT "encourages abstinence and prevents (patients) from relapsing"; that patients on MMT do not get high from their daily dose of medication, but rather are able to function normally and return to jobs; that clinics monitor "(patient) drug use through urinalysis..."; and discourage any loitering outside of the clinic by patients. Additionally, MMT is "associated with substantial improvements in public health and employment and a reduction in HIV risk and criminal behavior".
The cost effectiveness of methadone treatment. There are numerous studies that show the benefit and savings to communities of methadone maintenance treatment when compared to costs such as imprisoning drug users, hospitalizing addicts for health problems resulting from illicit drug use (like HIV/AIDS, HCV, TB, etc.), and costs due to lost productivity and illness, including paying for illicit-drug-using addicts on welfare, Medicaid, Aid to Families with Dependent Children, and for foster care of children of mothers/fathers in prison. When you add in the costs of crime resulting from illicit drug use, the cost of treatment sounds better and smarter all the time!
"Substance abuse treatment can greatly reduce health care costs". . . . For every dollar spent on treatment, more than $7 in future costs were saved.
" With treatment, " criminal activity declined by two-thirds and hospitalizations by one-third," and use of alcohol and other drugs declined "two-fifths."
Also, after treatment began, "States averaged an increase of more than 70% in the number of (patients) employed."
Arrests of patients dropped dramatically, decreases ranging from "50% to 90%" in most states.
Again, the Department of Health & Human Services, Center for Substance Abuse Treatment (CSAT) cite numerous studies to back up these amazing figures. The public just needs to hear about them.
Costs of different kinds of treatment are compared too, showing that methadone maintenance treatment is the most cost effective of all of them. For example, "the treatment costs per day were residential $61.47; social model $34.41; outpatient drug free $7.87; methadone (maintenance) $6.37; and methadone (detox) $6.79." It also points out that because of the "high recidivism or relapse rates" with the chronic disease of addiction, the best cost benefits come with long-term treatment.
When patients dropped out of treatment, most relapsed to drug abuse within one year, often returning to previous criminal patterns to support the addiction. Therefore, patients should be encouraged to remain in treatment".
Quote from: Ted on July 21, 2008, 06:59:15 PM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:32:39 PM
I don't know who's selling it as alruistic and charitable, but it's not the owners. I suspect it to be backyard gossip you're referring to, or maybe something O'Connor's campaign manager cooked up.
The following sounds like altruism to me:
Quote from: Liz Buonauro on July 16, 2008, 11:01:47 AM
... It is important that "local decision makers and residents understand that treatment programs help communities by reducing many of the costly problems associated with active alcohol and other drug abuse and that treatment enables former users to return to productive lives". People need to learn about and understand methadone maintenance treatment (MMT): that MMT "encourages abstinence and prevents (patients) from relapsing"; that patients on MMT do not get high from their daily dose of medication, but rather are able to function normally and return to jobs; that clinics monitor "(patient) drug use through urinalysis..."; and discourage any loitering outside of the clinic by patients. Additionally, MMT is "associated with substantial improvements in public health and employment and a reduction in HIV risk and criminal behavior".
The cost effectiveness of methadone treatment. There are numerous studies that show the benefit and savings to communities of methadone maintenance treatment when compared to costs such as imprisoning drug users, hospitalizing addicts for health problems resulting from illicit drug use (like HIV/AIDS, HCV, TB, etc.), and costs due to lost productivity and illness, including paying for illicit-drug-using addicts on welfare, Medicaid, Aid to Families with Dependent Children, and for foster care of children of mothers/fathers in prison. When you add in the costs of crime resulting from illicit drug use, the cost of treatment sounds better and smarter all the time!
"Substance abuse treatment can greatly reduce health care costs". . . . For every dollar spent on treatment, more than $7 in future costs were saved.
" With treatment, " criminal activity declined by two-thirds and hospitalizations by one-third," and use of alcohol and other drugs declined "two-fifths."
Also, after treatment began, "States averaged an increase of more than 70% in the number of (patients) employed."
Arrests of patients dropped dramatically, decreases ranging from "50% to 90%" in most states.
Again, the Department of Health & Human Services, Center for Substance Abuse Treatment (CSAT) cite numerous studies to back up these amazing figures. The public just needs to hear about them.
Costs of different kinds of treatment are compared too, showing that methadone maintenance treatment is the most cost effective of all of them. For example, "the treatment costs per day were residential $61.47; social model $34.41; outpatient drug free $7.87; methadone (maintenance) $6.37; and methadone (detox) $6.79." It also points out that because of the "high recidivism or relapse rates" with the chronic disease of addiction, the best cost benefits come with long-term treatment.
When patients dropped out of treatment, most relapsed to drug abuse within one year, often returning to previous criminal patterns to support the addiction. Therefore, patients should be encouraged to remain in treatment".
I guess it would help if some of us knew what altruism means. Here's a cut/paste from Wikipedia (sorry, I can be lazy):
"Altruism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
For the ethical doctrine, see Altruism (ethics).
Look up altruism in
Wiktionary, the free dictionary.Altruism is selfless concern for the welfare of others. It is a traditional virtue in many cultures, and central to many religious traditions. This idea was often described as the Golden rule of ethics. Altruism is the opposite of selfishness.
Altruism can be distinguished from feelings of loyalty and duty. Altruism focuses on a motivation to help others or a want to do good without reward, while duty focuses on a moral obligation towards a specific individual (for example, God, a king), a specific organization (for example, a government), or an abstract concept (for example, patriotism etc). Some individuals may feel both altruism and duty, while others may not. Pure altruism is giving without regard to reward or the benefits of recognition.
The concept has a long history in philosophical and ethical thought, and has more recently become a topic for psychologists (especially evolutionary psychology researchers), sociologists, evolutionary biologists, and ethologists. While ideas about altruism from one field can have an impact on the other fields, the different methods and focuses of these fields lead to different perspectives on altruism. Researches on altruism were sparked in particular after the murder of Kitty Genovese in 1964,[1] who was stabbed during half an hour, with passive witnesses withholding themselves from helping her.
Contents [hide]
1 Altruism in social sciences
1.1 Altruism in morality and politics
1.2 Altruism and deep ecology
2 Altruism in ethology and evolutionary biology
3 Altruism and religion
3.1 Sikhism
4 See also
5 References
5.1 Notes
5.2 Bibliography
6 External links
[edit] Altruism in social sciences
This section does not cite any references or sources. (July 2008)
Please help improve this section by adding citations to reliable sources. Unverifiable material may be challenged and removed.
Main article: Altruism (ethics)
If one performs an act beneficial to others with a view to gaining some personal benefit, then it is not an altruistically motivated act. There are several different perspectives on how "benefit" (or "interest") should be defined. A material gain (for example, money, a physical reward, etc.) is clearly a form of benefit, while others identify and include both material and immaterial gains (affection, respect, happiness, satisfaction etc.) as being philosophically identical benefits."
As this will be a for-profit enterprise, it will not, can not, be altruistic. Try again.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 08:22:49 PM
As this will be a for-profit enterprise, it will not, can not, be altruistic. Try again.
Wrong. The two conditions are not mutually exclusive.
Besides, your original point was that Ms. Buonauro was not trying come across as altruisitc. I simply provided a quote that showed Ms Buonauro was trying to come across as altruistic.
Whether or not she really is altruistic, only she knows.
She may be doing this to help addicts recover or whether she may be doing this to become rich quick (or maybe both), Only Ms. Buonauro could answer that question.
But, the fact that Ms. Buonauro would post what she did suggests that she was at least trying to come across to people who read this site as someone who was doing this (opening a clinic) to help other people.
Quote from: Ted on July 21, 2008, 08:53:16 PM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 08:22:49 PM
As this will be a for-profit enterprise, it will not, can not, be altruistic. Try again.
Wrong. The two conditions are not mutually exclusive.
Besides, your original point was that Ms. Buonauro was not trying come across as altruisitc. I simply provided a quote that showed Ms Buonauro was trying to come across as altruistic.
Whether or not she really is altruistic, only she knows.
She may be doing this to help addicts recover or whether she may be doing this to become rich quick (or maybe both), Only Ms. Buonauro could answer that question.
But, the fact that Ms. Buonauro would post what she did suggests that she was at least trying to come across to people who read this site as someone who was doing this (opening a clinic) to help other people.
I'll give you points for stubborness, but that's it. "If one performs an act beneficial to others with a view to gaining some personal benefit, then it is not an altruistically motivated act. There are several different perspectives on how "benefit" (or "interest") should be defined. A material gain (for example, money, a physical reward, etc.) is clearly a form of benefit. . ." That is not an ambiguous statement. You got a problem with the definition, take it up with Wikipedia. See if you can get them to accept your definition.
I never said she's not trying to come across as altruistic. I said she's not altruistic, and this is based on the definition of the word, which you've chosen to ignore. Nothing in her post indicates otherwise. Besides, those aren't her words, they're from another site. She did a cut/paste, which she makes fairly clear in the first sentence of her post.
People had an opportunity to ask Liz questions at the rally and online. They don't seem too interested in her answers, so what's the point in providing them.
As with any business, if there are no benefits provided, there'll be no clients/customers. Service businesses by definition "help" other people do things they can't do for themselves (as opposed to a manufactuing business that makes things). So yes, the clinic is being opened to help people. Which, again, does not make her altruistic.
I had truly hoped that Liz would present herself and her clinic in the best possible light at the rally. She started off in a manner that many perceived as hostile (I certainly did, and was disappointed when she left). In all fairness, that was a tough position to be in. I don't know anymore about her and her abilities to run a substance abuse/methodone clinic than I did before the rally. Or why she felt the Depot District was the best location to service her clients vs. Ogden, Roosevelt, Harlem, or others in the area.
Altruism aside, does anyone know if a lawsuit is likely or already in the works? This is what is important now.
Based upon direct responses from the aldermen, tomorrow's COW session should result in a revote that denies the clinic occupancy. Ald. Chapman stated that we would be sued...not could be, but would be. I'm assuming that she said this (even though the approval sailed through the zoning board review and subsequent COW ) that the threat of a lawsuit had already been given to Ald. Chapman from Liz or Sal.
Does anyone know if the legal wheels are already turning in city hall to get ahead of said lawsuit? I've posted this question to our aldermen who voted "yes" to avoid a lawsuit, but didnt' recieve any detail in their response about what they are doing to prevent/prepare for a lawsuit.
Anyone will to give odds that a lawsuit occurs? And if so, what the likelyhood of Berwyn winning the suit really is? We seem to be a bit head of the game by at least having some zoning variances in place (the lawsuits I've found via Google all point out the complete lack of zoning laws as a reason for cities losing a lawsuit). But I'm curious in others' opinions on this.
We will all give you "both" points for stubborness.
I believe the citizens of Berwyn will need to contact their legislators and take this issue to Springfield. This is going to take some thought and organization.
Quote from: Vic0218 on July 21, 2008, 10:39:37 PM
Based upon direct responses from the aldermen, tomorrow's COW session should result in a revote that denies the clinic occupancy.
Did they commit to changing their votes? I thought #7 said he'd "reconsider" it, and it was stated Skryd would do whatever the residents wanted...
I'm curious to find out who actually does change their vote.
Again, is this a lose-lose proposition as Nona contends?
Quote from: Allen on July 21, 2008, 10:44:33 PM
We will all give you "both" points for stubborness.
I believe the citizens of Berwyn will need to contact their legislators and take this issue to Springfield. This is going to take some thought and organization.
And what are you gonna ask Springfield to do? Thought and organization, its up to city officials to put this to bed one way or the other. I believe the depot district was chosen for 2 reasons by the owners.
1. Its close to their homes.
2. They thought it would quietly blend in the area because of the hospital and all the medical offices around it and pretty much go unnoticed. Thats probably why earlier in the year they applied and called it a substance abuse clinic.
For years small business owners opened in the depot district expecting to do good because of the hospital and the train station. To me the hospital is the biggest burden in ever developing the district. Plus most of the store fronts are small, old, and out dated. It will never be like Lagrange or Hinsdale as long as the hospital is there.
Bonster - here are the responses I recieved from Lovero & Chapman via email in response to a lengthy follow-up letter I sent them post-rally. I'm also including Phelan's response just for the hell of it, even though it didn't address any of my questions. Ald. Skyrd didn't reply to me...I'm assuming because she announced at the rally that she would change her vote to 'No':
From: Robert Lovero [mailto:aldlovero@gmail.com]
Sent: Thu 7/17/2008 2:08 PM
To: Ledajaks, Vicki
Subject: Re: Follow up to yesterday's rally and restatement of concerns
Vicki, I have previously responded to you and will do so again. I have
listened to the residents concerns and their wishes and I will be
changing my vote on Tuesday. Thanks for your expression of concern and
your patience . Bob Lovero
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: aldchapmanward1@aol.com [mailto:aldchapmanward1@aol.com]
Sent: Sat 7/19/2008 3:45 AM
To: Ledajaks, Vicki
Subject: Re: Follow up to yesterday's rally and restatement of concerns
Please see the attached communication for Tuesdays council meeting changing my vote to "No" and not allowing the Bobby Buonauro clinic.
Thanks,
Nona
-----------------------------------------------------
From: Michael Phelan [mailto:phelan1816@msn.com]
Sent: Thu 7/17/2008 2:28 PM
To: Ledajaks, Vicki; 1stward@berwyn-il.gov; 2ndward@berwyn-il.gov; 4thward@berwyn-il.gov; 4thwardaldskryd@sbcglobal.net; 5thward@berwyn-il.gov; 6thward@berwyn-il.gov; 7thward@berwyn-il.gov; 8thward@berwyn-il.gov; moconnor@ci.berwyn.il.us; markweiner1@hotmail.com; joelglobal@sbcglobal.net; aldchapmanward1@aol.com
Subject: RE: Follow up to yesterday's rally and restatement of concerns
Someone please correct me if I am wrong but it is my understanding that this matter should have never been sent to the zoning board of appeals. It is my understanding that the city collector had no reason to deny this business a license in the first place. Therefore we should have never even voted on it. Is that correct?
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 10:29:07 PM
... I never said she's not trying to come across as altruistic....
Yes, you do say that. Here's your quote:
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:32:39 PM
... I don't know who's selling it as alruistic and charitable, but it's not the owners...
YOU were the one who was claiming that the owners were not "selling" it as not being altruistic. I posted a post that the owners were trying to come across as altruistic. Simple as that.
It has nothing to do with whether the owners actually are being altruistic, just that the owners were trying to sell themselves to the public as being altruistic.
Game. Set. Match.
Ted 3, Assorted cast of characters 0.
GAME OVER.
:D :D :D
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 03:52:31 PM
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 02:58:33 PM
fedup and esad,
twiddleydee and twiddleydum.
LOL!
nice try boys. keep fishing.
Don't need to reveal who I am as I'm not the party passing myself off as more qualified than a physician to render an opnion on the topic.
funny how your camp just keeps sending more minions to take on Silk after others are sent scurrying off.
Stick around boys, we'll have some fun......just not on your terms.
Actually, Silk, I am of the opinion that the DD, and Berwyn in general, won't benefit, from an economic development standpoint, by being home to a methadone clinic. In fact, both might suffer, at least temporarily, due to the negative publicity this has generated. That said, I think such a clinic would be a community asset, fulfillling an unmet (locally) need. I do not think my humble opinion matters much, and my opposing opinions aren't strong enough to rally for or against the clinic, I'll save that for a business that I think really deserves it.
Obviously, I'm not having a nervous breakdown over the spectre of "junkies in the bushes" (as posted by someone on a Tribune forum). My arguments have been directed more at trying to calm the hysteria this has created and to get people to do some rational thinking. If someone's afraid of the clinic moving in, fine. Just admit it and don't try to justify the fear with ill-informed gossip. I'm also doing battle with those still trying to actively fan the flames for, perhaps, other reasons.
Well let me ask you this-where in this entire process did the Buonauro Clinic demonstrate a LOCAL need?
This is a question I asked at the beginning of the thread, which still hasn't been answered. Seems to me, YOU'RE the party that has jumped to the conclusion such a need exists.
I've read virtually all the CC communications and literature that the Buonauro Clinic distributed last Wednesday, I listened to the speakers at the forum, and I even went online looking for such info, and NADA................................................................
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 02:25:31 PM
I didn't say they're not profitable.
Double negative? Grammatical faux pas? ;D :D ;D
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 02:25:31 PM
God, I love stupid people. They're so easy.
Got THAT right!!!! :D :D :D
Nonetheless, here is what you said:
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 11:00:36 AM
Who said it was "so profitable?" Just because something is for profit doesn't mean it's profitable. Trust me, I have my own business.
The second sentence necessarily implies the clinics are NOT profitable.
I never said "so profitable", nor that cilinics are "unusually profitable", as you claim below:
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 02:25:31 PM
I was just responding to your statement that they are "so profitable". I don't believe anyone has claimed them to be unusually profitable, which your statement implies.
This is what I
DID say:
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 02:00:24 PM
You mean to tell me methadone clinics aren't profitable?
Cancer drugs? You're comparing cancer to heroin addiction? Please don't insult those of us who have lost loved ones to cancer.
The reason selling methadone (as opposed to cancer drugs) for a profit is so "fascinating" is because a) it preys on the weak, b) it exacerbates an existing problem, and c) at some point, the addict has made a conscious choice to get high. The cancer victim has no choice whatsoever.
So please, don't set forth false allegations and misstate what people actually say.
FYI, the party that posted about clinics being "so profitable" was chandasz:
Quote from: chandasz on July 21, 2008, 09:16:32 AM
I guess what I don't understand is why they don't put the clinic within the confines of the hospital if it's a "treatment facility" dealing with "the most controlled substance" out there.
If it's so profitable-- wouldn't the hospital be interested?
I find it fascinating that selling methadone at a profit is legal!
Why not put the clinic into Harlem Cermak mall-- the place is a ghost town anyway. Can we enforce the "blight" ordinance on the whole mall?
I don't understand why a town can't say that they don't want a methadone clinic in their downtown? If it's so hard to say "no" to then why don't they have one in downtown Oak Park... or Wilmette?
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 02:25:31 PM
Thank you for making my point about cancer drugs (which were just an example). You are correct, the cancer patient has no choice whatsoever. But do the drug companies take this into account? No. Neither do doctors or hospitals. They all charge for the products and services they sell to their "weak" (read ill) customers. Yet you bemoan the fact that drug users, who "made a conscious chose to get high" (but not necessarily addicted) are being preyed upon by having to pay for methadone? That defies logic. Also, not all methadone is dispensed to addicts who "chose to get high". I know the point has been made before, but some people who use methadone are doing so because of an addiction to legal narcotics presciibe by MD's.
And please introduce me to somebody who hasn't lost a "loved" one to cancer. How many people do you think haven't been impacted by what might be the greatest scourge known to humans.
God, I love stupid people. They're so easy.
By weak, I meant weak of mind, not of body. Didn't realize I had to spell it out for you. Once again, if you're attempting to analogize the "weakness" of a cancer victim with that of a heroin addict, God Bless you. Pretty disingenious.
Or maybe you're comparing cancer drugs to methadone? Again, I'll let others draw their own conclusions on this one.
Lastly, if you in fact HAVE lost a loved one to cancer, then SHAME on you for analogizing that scourge with self inflicted addiction.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 03:21:05 PM
What do you call a person who makes a stupid argument? Inadequately educated? Intellectually deprived? Cognitively disabled?
ESAD! ;)
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 07:40:01 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 02:25:31 PM
I didn't say they're not profitable.
Double negative? Grammatical faux pas? ;D :D ;D
Nonetheless, here is what you said:
Who said it was "so profitable?" Just because something is for profit doesn't mean it's profitable. Trust me, I have my own business.
The second sentence necessarily implies the clinics are NOT profitable.
I never said "so profitable", nor that cilinics are "unusually profitable", as you claim below:
I was just responding to your statement that they are "so profitable". I don't believe anyone has claimed them to be unusually profitable, which your statement implies.
This is what I DID say:
Quote from: SILK on July 21, 2008, 02:00:24 PM
You mean to tell me methadone clinics aren't profitable?
Cancer drugs? You're comparing cancer to heroin addiction? Please don't insult those of us who have lost loved ones to cancer.
The reason selling methadone (as opposed to cancer drugs) for a profit is so "fascinating" is because a) it preys on the weak, b) it exacerbates an existing problem, and c) at some point, the addict has made a conscious choice to get high. The cancer victim has no choice whatsoever.
So please, don't set forth false allegations and misstate what people actually say.
FYI, the party that posted about clinics being "so profitable" was chandasz:
Quote from: chandasz on July 21, 2008, 09:16:32 AM
I guess what I don't understand is why they don't put the clinic within the confines of the hospital if it's a "treatment facility" dealing with "the most controlled substance" out there.
If it's so profitable-- wouldn't the hospital be interested?
I find it fascinating that selling methadone at a profit is legal!
Why not put the clinic into Harlem Cermak mall-- the place is a ghost town anyway. Can we enforce the "blight" ordinance on the whole mall?
I don't understand why a town can't say that they don't want a methadone clinic in their downtown? If it's so hard to say "no" to then why don't they have one in downtown Oak Park... or Wilmette?
Not a grammatical error. It's written as intended. Find a local grade school teach if you need help figuring it out.
You're combining and confusing my responses to you and to Chandasz. And why, may I asked, are you doing it now, which is what, some 20 hours later? It's taken you this long to formulate your post? And you come up with this? Again, if you don't understand my statements, get someone to explain them to you. Saying something is "so profitable" implies unusual profitability. Perhaps my second sentence is too subtle. Let me make it clearer for the slower kids in class - Just because something is for-profit does not guarantee it will be profitable.
My opinion as to the clinic fulfilling an unmet local need is based on conversations I've had with a discharge planner at MacNeal (one thing she does is refer people to clinics such as the BBC), and with Liz Buonauro (she knows where her clients and many potential clients live) and others in the addiction biz. Unfortunately, the people that have the info you want are the people that neither you nor many others will listen to.
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 08:05:50 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 02:25:31 PM
Thank you for making my point about cancer drugs (which were just an example). You are correct, the cancer patient has no choice whatsoever. But do the drug companies take this into account? No. Neither do doctors or hospitals. They all charge for the products and services they sell to their "weak" (read ill) customers. Yet you bemoan the fact that drug users, who "made a conscious chose to get high" (but not necessarily addicted) are being preyed upon by having to pay for methadone? That defies logic. Also, not all methadone is dispensed to addicts who "chose to get high". I know the point has been made before, but some people who use methadone are doing so because of an addiction to legal narcotics presciibe by MD's.
And please introduce me to somebody who hasn't lost a "loved" one to cancer. How many people do you think haven't been impacted by what might be the greatest scourge known to humans.
God, I love stupid people. They're so easy.
By weak, I meant weak of mind, not of body. Didn't realize I had to spell it out for you. Once again, if you're attempting to analogize the "weakness" of a cancer victim with that of a heroin addict, God Bless you. Pretty disingenious.
Or maybe you're comparing cancer drugs to methadone? Again, I'll let others draw their own conclusions on this one.
Lastly, if you in fact HAVE lost a loved one to cancer, then SHAME on you for analogizing that scourge with self inflicted addiction.
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 03:21:05 PM
What do you call a person who makes a stupid argument? Inadequately educated? Intellectually deprived? Cognitively disabled?
ESAD! ;)
Your post speaks volumes. It seems you're getting pretty desperate.
Well ESAD, this is the first time I've been behind a pc in nearly 20 hours. Stands to reason, doesn't it?
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 08:18:06 AM
Well ESAD, this is the first time I've been behind a pc in nearly 20 hours. Stands to reason, doesn't it?
Yes, but you were "behind a PC" as late as 5:00 yesterday, roughly 3-4 hours after the posts at issue.
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 08:14:34 AM
Not a grammatical error. It's written as intended.
Right, and I'm Mr. Magoo.
QuoteFind a local grade school teach if you need help figuring it out.
Buddy, the condescending attitude you can save for the minions of a lesser caliber. Nice try though.
QuoteYou're combining and confusing my responses to you and to Chandasz.
I'M the one that's confused?
HAHAHAHA!!!!
Read the posts again,
AND the responses. No need to get in a huff ole ESAD boy, you'll have plenty of opportunity to rehabilitate yourself.
QuoteSaying something is "so profitable" implies unusual profitability. Perhaps my second sentence is too subtle. Let me make it clearer for the slower kids in class - Just because something is for-profit does not guarantee it will be profitable.
So what does the above have ANYTHING to do with what
I, not chandasz, said?
QuoteMy opinion as to the clinic fulfilling an unmet local need is based on conversations I've had with a discharge planner at MacNeal (one thing she does is refer people to clinics such as the BBC), and with Liz Buonauro (she knows where her clients and many potential clients live) and others in the addiction biz. Unfortunately, the people that have the info you want are the people that neither you nor many others will listen to.
And once again, where in any of the publicly disseminated information has the Buonauro clinic demonstrated such a need?
YOUR conversation with a discharge planner? Hearsay, perhaps?
Liz Buonauro? She had her opportunity. Maybe if she stops twitching long enough to string together a coherent sentence, we'll be getting somewhere.
Again, where is this info and who are these people? I'm all ears. If you were at the forum, you would know I was one of the people trying to shut the hecklers up so the rest of us could hear what was being said.
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 08:23:00 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 08:18:06 AM
Well ESAD, this is the first time I've been behind a pc in nearly 20 hours. Stands to reason, doesn't it?
Yes, but you were "behind a PC" as late as 5:00 yesterday, roughly 3-4 hours after the posts at issue.
At 5:00 yesterday afternoon, I was at the Cingular phone repair center in Willowbrook. Nowhere near a pc. Try again.
btw, I have the literature the Buonauro Clinic passed out on Wednesday right in front of me now. Please point out to me where in the entire handout is there any empirical data demonstarting a LOCAL (Berwyn) need.
Bringing up hearsay on this board is kind of...silly.
as are ESAD's futile attempts at misdirection.
Quote from: Ted on July 22, 2008, 05:22:12 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 10:29:07 PM
... I never said she's not trying to come across as altruistic....
Yes, you do say that. Here's your quote:
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:32:39 PM
... I don't know who's selling it as alruistic and charitable, but it's not the owners...
YOU were the one who was claiming that the owners were not "selling" it as not being altruistic. I posted a post that the owners were trying to come across as altruistic. Simple as that.
It has nothing to do with whether the owners actually are being altruistic, just that the owners were trying to sell themselves to the public as being altruistic.
Game. Set. Match.
Ted, Ted, Ted. Did you and Silk go to the same school.
Here's the whole sentence "I never said she's not trying to come across as altruistic. I said she's not altruistic, and this is based on the definition of the word, which you've chosen to ignore." Please note the first 5 words of the second sentence in the quote. I flat out state she's not altruistic.
My second post you cite was in response to someone other than you. And I stand by my response. I've yet to hear them (the owners) make a statement trying to sell themselves as being altruistic. Perhaps altruistic isn't the word you mean to use.
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 08:27:14 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 08:23:00 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 08:18:06 AM
Well ESAD, this is the first time I've been behind a pc in nearly 20 hours. Stands to reason, doesn't it?
Yes, but you were "behind a PC" as late as 5:00 yesterday, roughly 3-4 hours after the posts at issue.
At 5:00 yesterday afternoon, I was at the Cingular phone repair center in Willowbrook. Nowhere near a pc. Try again.
But you appear to have had hour Palm Pilot. Here's the header from your last post.
Re: Bobby Buonauro Methadone Clinic
« Reply #736 on: Yesterday at 05:03:13 PM »
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 22, 2008, 08:31:56 AM
Bringing up hearsay on this board is kind of...silly.
I agree. Hey, Sue, do you have anything to say?
Update: Sue's at work at won't be responding until the P.M. In the meantime, anyone interested in more info regarding the need for a clinic in Berwyn, why don't you call the BBC in Evanston? You can talk to Liz and the Doc's who work with her.
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 08:25:55 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 08:14:34 AM
Not a grammatical error. It's written as intended.
Right, and I'm Mr. Magoo.
QuoteFind a local grade school teach if you need help figuring it out.
Buddy, the condescending attitude you can save for the minions of a lesser caliber. Nice try though.
QuoteYou're combining and confusing my responses to you and to Chandasz.
I'M the one that's confused?
HAHAHAHA!!!!
Read the posts again, AND the responses. No need to get in a huff ole ESAD boy, you'll have plenty of opportunity to rehabilitate yourself.
QuoteSaying something is "so profitable" implies unusual profitability. Perhaps my second sentence is too subtle. Let me make it clearer for the slower kids in class - Just because something is for-profit does not guarantee it will be profitable.
So what does the above have ANYTHING to do with what I, not chandasz, said?
QuoteMy opinion as to the clinic fulfilling an unmet local need is based on conversations I've had with a discharge planner at MacNeal (one thing she does is refer people to clinics such as the BBC), and with Liz Buonauro (she knows where her clients and many potential clients live) and others in the addiction biz. Unfortunately, the people that have the info you want are the people that neither you nor many others will listen to.
And once again, where in any of the publicly disseminated information has the Buonauro clinic demonstrated such a need?
YOUR conversation with a discharge planner? Hearsay, perhaps?
Liz Buonauro? She had her opportunity. Maybe if she stops twitching long enough to string together a coherent sentence, we'll be getting somewhere.
Again, where is this info and who are these people? I'm all ears. If you were at the forum, you would know I was one of the people trying to shut the hecklers up so the rest of us could hear what was being said.
I hope you're better in front of a jury than you are here, counselor.
I'll let you go first Molly.
Ladies always first!
lol!!!
p.s. you may need a little seasoning in the minors before you're ready for the majors big fella.
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 08:49:20 AM
I'll let you go first Molly.
Ladies always first!
lol!!!
p.s. you may need a little seasoning in the minors before you're ready for the majors big fella.
I doubt you have much experience with the majors. Just review your last few posts. Getting pretty childish.
Um, forgive me if I don't get this... but if you are running a "for proft" business-- isn't it supposed to be "profitable". If it isn't profitable- doesn't it fail? If it is going to fail- why run it?
I find it kind of gross to run a "for profit" business off of the misfortune of others (whether or not it is self-inflicted misfortune).
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 08:47:40 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 08:25:55 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 08:14:34 AM
Not a grammatical error. It's written as intended.
Right, and I'm Mr. Magoo.
QuoteFind a local grade school teach if you need help figuring it out.
Buddy, the condescending attitude you can save for the minions of a lesser caliber. Nice try though.
QuoteYou're combining and confusing my responses to you and to Chandasz.
I'M the one that's confused?
HAHAHAHA!!!!
Read the posts again, AND the responses. No need to get in a huff ole ESAD boy, you'll have plenty of opportunity to rehabilitate yourself.
QuoteSaying something is "so profitable" implies unusual profitability. Perhaps my second sentence is too subtle. Let me make it clearer for the slower kids in class - Just because something is for-profit does not guarantee it will be profitable.
So what does the above have ANYTHING to do with what I, not chandasz, said?
QuoteMy opinion as to the clinic fulfilling an unmet local need is based on conversations I've had with a discharge planner at MacNeal (one thing she does is refer people to clinics such as the BBC), and with Liz Buonauro (she knows where her clients and many potential clients live) and others in the addiction biz. Unfortunately, the people that have the info you want are the people that neither you nor many others will listen to.
And once again, where in any of the publicly disseminated information has the Buonauro clinic demonstrated such a need?
YOUR conversation with a discharge planner? Hearsay, perhaps?
Liz Buonauro? She had her opportunity. Maybe if she stops twitching long enough to string together a coherent sentence, we'll be getting somewhere.
Again, where is this info and who are these people? I'm all ears. If you were at the forum, you would know I was one of the people trying to shut the hecklers up so the rest of us could hear what was being said.
I hope you're better in front of a jury than you are here, counselor.
Are you going to set forth any evidence and/or empirical data, or are you going to continue misdirecting?
The masses are waiting.
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 08:25:55 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 08:14:34 AM
Not a grammatical error. It's written as intended.
Right, and I'm Mr. Magoo.
QuoteFind a local grade school teach if you need help figuring it out.
Buddy, the condescending attitude you can save for the minions of a lesser caliber. Nice try though.
QuoteYou're combining and confusing my responses to you and to Chandasz.
I'M the one that's confused?
HAHAHAHA!!!!
Read the posts again, AND the responses. No need to get in a huff ole ESAD boy, you'll have plenty of opportunity to rehabilitate yourself.
QuoteSaying something is "so profitable" implies unusual profitability. Perhaps my second sentence is too subtle. Let me make it clearer for the slower kids in class - Just because something is for-profit does not guarantee it will be profitable.
So what does the above have ANYTHING to do with what I, not chandasz, said?
QuoteMy opinion as to the clinic fulfilling an unmet local need is based on conversations I've had with a discharge planner at MacNeal (one thing she does is refer people to clinics such as the BBC), and with Liz Buonauro (she knows where her clients and many potential clients live) and others in the addiction biz. Unfortunately, the people that have the info you want are the people that neither you nor many others will listen to.
And once again, where in any of the publicly disseminated information has the Buonauro clinic demonstrated such a need?
YOUR conversation with a discharge planner? Hearsay, perhaps?
Liz Buonauro? She had her opportunity. Maybe if she stops twitching long enough to string together a coherent sentence, we'll be getting somewhere.
Again, where is this info and who are these people? I'm all ears. If you were at the forum, you would know I was one of the people trying to shut the hecklers up so the rest of us could hear what was being said.
Mr. Magoo, a double negative sentence would read "I didn't have no breakfast". Now compare that to the sentence with which you've taken issue.
Don't worry, you'll be hearing from the discharge planner in due course.
Quote from: chandasz on July 22, 2008, 09:01:07 AM
Um, forgive me if I don't get this... but if you are running a "for proft" business-- isn't it supposed to be "profitable". If it isn't profitable- doesn't it fail? If it is going to fail- why run it?
I find it kind of gross to run a "for profit" business off of the misfortune of others (whether or not it is self-inflicted misfortune).
A business owner hopes the business is going to be profitable, but that's not always the case. Some businesses just break even, something that can go on for quite some time, as long as the business is making a living, which is not to be confused with a profit. Others lose money now and again (airlines, for example), and if they lose money too often, or if they lose to much money, yes, they can fail.
Pretty much the entire healthcare industry makes money off the misfortune of people. Which explains, in part, the healthcare crisis facing our country. I wish someone had the answer.
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 10:40:16 AM
Don't worry, you'll be hearing from the discharge planner in due course.
I have NO DOUBT we'll be hearing from the discharge planner. :D ;D :D
Wonder why it has taken so long to begin with?
Nonetheless, what empirical data can you provide supporting the claim of a local need? You are, in fact, the party who accuses others of forming opinions without proof. Where is yours? Hearsay? What the OWNER of the clinic tells you? What you heard a neighbor down the street say?
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 10:40:16 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 08:25:55 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 08:14:34 AM
Not a grammatical error. It's written as intended.
Right, and I'm Mr. Magoo.
QuoteFind a local grade school teach if you need help figuring it out.
Buddy, the condescending attitude you can save for the minions of a lesser caliber. Nice try though.
QuoteYou're combining and confusing my responses to you and to Chandasz.
I'M the one that's confused?
HAHAHAHA!!!!
Read the posts again, AND the responses. No need to get in a huff ole ESAD boy, you'll have plenty of opportunity to rehabilitate yourself.
QuoteSaying something is "so profitable" implies unusual profitability. Perhaps my second sentence is too subtle. Let me make it clearer for the slower kids in class - Just because something is for-profit does not guarantee it will be profitable.
So what does the above have ANYTHING to do with what I, not chandasz, said?
QuoteMy opinion as to the clinic fulfilling an unmet local need is based on conversations I've had with a discharge planner at MacNeal (one thing she does is refer people to clinics such as the BBC), and with Liz Buonauro (she knows where her clients and many potential clients live) and others in the addiction biz. Unfortunately, the people that have the info you want are the people that neither you nor many others will listen to.
And once again, where in any of the publicly disseminated information has the Buonauro clinic demonstrated such a need?
YOUR conversation with a discharge planner? Hearsay, perhaps?
Liz Buonauro? She had her opportunity. Maybe if she stops twitching long enough to string together a coherent sentence, we'll be getting somewhere.
Again, where is this info and who are these people? I'm all ears. If you were at the forum, you would know I was one of the people trying to shut the hecklers up so the rest of us could hear what was being said.
Mr. Magoo, a double negative sentence would read "I didn't have no breakfast". Now compare that to the sentence with which you've taken issue.
Don't worry, you'll be hearing from the discharge planner in due course.
"I
didn't (NOT) (1) say they're
NOT (2) profitable."
Maybe you need some glasses as well. May I suggest Pearle Vision?
But I thought you said it was written as intended? Which one is it? Did you write it as intended, or is it not a double negative?
One must be careful not to trip over their own tongue when engaging in double talk.
Guys, step back and take a deep breath.
Dissecting sentences isn't of much interest to anyone besides you two and the occasional English teacher...
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 11:18:07 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 10:40:16 AM
Don't worry, you'll be hearing from the discharge planner in due course.
I have NO DOUBT we'll be hearing from the discharge planner. :D ;D :D
Wonder why it has taken so long to begin with?
Nonetheless, what empirical data can you provide supporting the claim of a local need? You are, in fact, the party who accuses others of forming opinions without proof. Where is yours? Hearsay? What the OWNER of the clinic tells you? What you heard a neighbor down the street say?
Because some people work for a living Andy.
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 22, 2008, 11:23:39 AM
Guys, step back and take a deep breath.
Dissecting sentences isn't of much interest to anyone besides you two and the occasional English teacher...
But we're having sooo much fun. . .
I can sympathize with that. Even though it has been nearly a week now. Despite the fact you measure MY responses by the HOUR. :D
Nonetheless, where's your data?
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 22, 2008, 11:23:39 AM
Guys, step back and take a deep breath.
Dissecting sentences isn't of much interest to anyone besides you two and the occasional English teacher...
You have a point Brian. I just have this disdain for those who intentionally misstate facts and/or distort issues.
QuoteI find it kind of gross to run a "for profit" business off of the misfortune of others (whether or not it is self-inflicted misfortune).
Kind of like a hospital or a doctor, maybe a funeral home?
Quote from: dukesdad on July 22, 2008, 11:59:33 AM
QuoteI find it kind of gross to run a "for profit" business off of the misfortune of others (whether or not it is self-inflicted misfortune).
Kind of like a hospital or a doctor, maybe a funeral home?
I like the "maybe" in there.
Quote from: SILK on July 22, 2008, 11:18:07 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 10:40:16 AM
Don't worry, you'll be hearing from the discharge planner in due course.
I have NO DOUBT we'll be hearing from the discharge planner. :D ;D :D
Wonder why it has taken so long to begin with?
Nonetheless, what empirical data can you provide supporting the claim of a local need? You are, in fact, the party who accuses others of forming opinions without proof. Where is yours? Hearsay? What the OWNER of the clinic tells you? What you heard a neighbor down the street say?
I am "the discharge planner" ...
I do not have "empirical" data. I am sure there are statistics but I would question their validity due to the HIPPA regulations restricting accurate data collection. I can tell you I have at least one patient a day from Berwyn who is in need of the services provided by the proposed substance abuse clinic that uses methadone as one of its modalities. These are mostly people addicted to legal narcotics, dealing with chronic pain, and polysubstance abuse. There are also heroin addicts – many of which are recovering.
I believe the resistance is due to fear of the unknown. I am lucky enough to know the Evanston Clinic, the owners and how they run it – and the people that would be referred to the clinic. I live in the DD. I am not afraid.
One pt a day! This is proof there is NO demand for the BBC clinic in Berwyn.
Quote from: ESAD on July 22, 2008, 08:38:45 AM
Here's the whole sentence "I never said she's not trying to come across as altruistic. I said she's not altruistic, and this is based on the definition of the word, which you've chosen to ignore." Please note the first 5 words of the second sentence in the quote. I flat out state she's not altruistic.
I agree with you. I don't think the owners are altruistic. But, that is not what you said originally. Here is what you said originally:
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:32:39 PM
... I don't know who's selling it as alruistic and charitable, but it's not the owners...
I simply pointed out a post where the owners came on this board and tried to pretend to be altruistic. That contradicts the statement you made. Why is that so difficult for you to comprehend or admit?
Ted
Quote from: SDS on July 22, 2008, 12:22:31 PM
I am "the discharge planner" ...
I can tell you I have at least one patient a day from Berwyn who is in need of the services provided by the proposed substance abuse clinic that uses methadone as one of its modalities.
Thank you for posting -
One of the main questions that has been asked, but not responded is the number of people that would go to the BB clinic in lieu of MacNeal & Filmore's existing substance abuse clinics.
Of the 'one patient a day' you reference, are you saying that the services they need cannot be met by MacNeal or Filmore's existing clinics, hence the need for an additional clinic?
I cannot tell from your post if you are stating that you know of 365 patients/year that need methadone which could be serviced by BB clinic. Or, that a subset of those would need methadone while the remainder need services not provided locally.
Also, of the 365 patients, should we assume that all will actively seek treatment or that only a percentage will follow the advice to seek such treatment? Who monitors that those who are discharged actually engage in a program?
One more: since you know the owners, do you know if they had already met with MacNeal administrators to set up a relationship to accept patients that need such treatment? I'd have to imagine that any for-profit business owner has a business plan that details the types of client that they will target and the geographical location of where those customers originate.....so if they want to service Berwyn citizens, they have to establish relationships with medical facilities already in Berwyn to feed them clients. So are these relationships established or not?
These facts are few and far between, but are necessary here. Since you have access to some of this info, please share. It will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you - Vicki
Quote from: tango on July 22, 2008, 12:35:41 PM
One pt a day! This is proof there is NO demand for the BBC clinic in Berwyn.
Just counting weekdays that's 210 Berwyn residents a year that are being referred to a treatment program. Remember, treatment isn't a 1 time thing. It's ongoing. The number of patients in treatment grows.
Also, something SDS didn't mention that the 1 a day is just from her specialty unit at the hospital. There are other units referring people, too. Sorry, she couldn't provide more detailed info, as she said in her post, privacy laws put strict limits on the release of patient data.
Good point ESAD....the one patient per day I took too literally, so at a min we can consider 210....max is unknown.
I'm really trying to understand the process here. Good assumptions can be made from the process described by SDS, because processes tend to be based upon need.
I'm hoping at least some questions can still be answered without risking any patient confidentiality laws.
Quote from: Vic0218 on July 22, 2008, 01:02:36 PM
Quote from: SDS on July 22, 2008, 12:22:31 PM
I am "the discharge planner" ...
I can tell you I have at least one patient a day from Berwyn who is in need of the services provided by the proposed substance abuse clinic that uses methadone as one of its modalities.
Thank you for posting -
One of the main questions that has been asked, but not responded is the number of people that would go to the BB clinic in lieu of MacNeal & Filmore's existing substance abuse clinics.
Of the 'one patient a day' you reference, are you saying that the services they need cannot be met by MacNeal or Filmore's existing clinics, hence the need for an additional clinic?
I cannot tell from your post if you are stating that you know of 365 patients/year that need methadone which could be serviced by BB clinic. Or, that a subset of those would need methadone while the remainder need services not provided locally.
Also, of the 365 patients, should we assume that all will actively seek treatment or that only a percentage will follow the advice to seek such treatment? Who monitors that those who are discharged actually engage in a program?
One more: since you know the owners, do you know if they had already met with MacNeal administrators to set up a relationship to accept patients that need such treatment? I'd have to imagine that any for-profit business owner has a business plan that details the types of client that they will target and the geographical location of where those customers originate.....so if they want to service Berwyn citizens, they have to establish relationships with medical facilities already in Berwyn to feed them clients. So are these relationships established or not?
These facts are few and far between, but are necessary here. Since you have access to some of this info, please share. It will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you - Vicki
Sorry the answers are short.
I can only tell you from my own experience – I probably refer 3 to 1 to MacNeal or Filmore. This includes those needing medical detoxification. They currently are the closest and they can provide some of the same services as the BBC. Most of my referrals to them are "dual diagnosis" – the mentally ill with a substance abuse problem.
Yes at least one patient a day would benefit from services that do not exist at MacNeal or Filmore.
In my opinion >365 patients/year would benefit from methadone or one of the other treatment modalities they offer at the BBC.
Unfortunately only a percentage will seek treament. People have to want treatment for success. I don't keep statistics. I know when I see them again though!
(One more: since you know the owners, do you know if they had already met with MacNeal administrators to set up a relationship to accept patients that need such treatment? I'd have to imagine that any for-profit business owner has a business plan that details the types of client that they will target and the geographical location of where those customers originate.....so if they want to service Berwyn citizens, they have to establish relationships with medical facilities already in Berwyn to feed them clients. So are these relationships established or not?) *** SDS-I do not know the answer to this one. I established a relationship as a health care provider searching for a good place to send my patient's from Berwyn. Evanston is a long way but people do travel there instead of the clinics that are closer.
Sorry I don't have time to give more of my opinion. I am certainly not an expert in this field – I just know I have difficulty getting opiate addiction services for my patient's. A good site may be the CDC and NIH government web sites. Some of their statistics are not reflective of Berwyn but they do have some research based information if anyone is interested.
Thank you SDS - I appreciate you taking the time to answer.
If only others who 'should' be in the know would take the same time to respond. Even 'I don't know' is more valuable than silence.
Thank you again and most of us really do appreciate the work you do on behalf of these patients - Vicki
God I love the entertainment on this, but again I have just a little to say,
1. Insulting doctors which take care of many of the children in the neighborhood is not a good thing.
2. Insulting the doctors and questioning their knowledge of Heroine/Methadone pisses off a lot of parents. Parents that will go to the defense of the Peds office,
3. The peds office is not the only office in that building that has considered moving if this Meth clinic goes in.
4. I also have a disabled child and do not appreciate that people that have choosen the way of life that leads to addiction are considered disabled. My so did not choose to have the issues that he has. These people chose it.
5. As for only 500 people showing up, well maybe if the whole town was notified about what was being slipped under the rug, there might have been more turn out from the rest of the town.
6. Even if this was not in the 1st ward and was going on in North Berwyn, you could bet your asses I would be against it there too. And I would be there to speak my mind and help so that it wouldn't happen there.
7. As for it going to Cermak Plaza, that is really ignorant, did everyone forget that there are students across the lot from the plaza? Hello, teenagers, drugs, "School why that when I can waste my brain away on Meth/ Heroine" What is wrong with everyone, out of sight out of mind? When u say no to it in the DD, then you should be saying no to it in all of Berwyn. We need to united on all fronts. Not just in the area you live in.
Quote from: Vic0218 on July 22, 2008, 03:57:30 PM
Thank you SDS - I appreciate you taking the time to answer.
If only others who 'should' be in the know would take the same time to respond. Even 'I don't know' is more valuable than silence.
Thank you again and most of us really do appreciate the work you do on behalf of these patients - Vicki
This is a general link to the National Institutes of Health drug abuse overview. If you want more details go to the home page - there is a multitude of information from evidence based research.
http://www.nida.nih.gov/about/welcome/aboutdrugabuse/trends/
Quote from: Mom of 2 / LLROB on July 22, 2008, 04:11:40 PM
6. Even if this was not in the 1st ward and was going on in North Berwyn, you could bet your asses I would be against it there too. And I would be there to speak my mind and help so that it wouldn't happen there.
7. As for it going to Cermak Plaza, that is really ignorant, did everyone forget that there are students across the lot from the plaza? Hello, teenagers, drugs, "School why that when I can waste my brain away on Meth/ Heroine" What is wrong with everyone, out of sight out of mind? When u say no to it in the DD, then you should be saying no to it in all of Berwyn. We need to united on all fronts. Not just in the area you live in.
Mom of 2: thanks.
While my feelings aren't as strong regarding this, that sentiment is appreciated. Not North or South, just Berwyn period.
Mom of 2 and Allen: Both of you are right. If more people in Berwyn knew of this, they too would have turned out. This was supposed to pass without the knowledge of Berwyn residents.
I was there. I do not live in the 1st ward. I live in the 2nd ward. If this were in North Berwyn, I would be just as outraged. This clinic has no place in Berwyn. There are two in Cicero. This just doesn't make sense.
I am the mother of three children with severe developmental disabilities. I too am insulted that someone who has chosen to live a life of addiction can be considered disabled under the ADA. Allen is right. I can't wait for the ADA to be up for reauthorization.
Put in the Cermak Plaza. Duh??? Sometimes you just have to wonder.
Having 1% of a community turn out for a meeting is pretty good.
Good enough to change the minds of local politicos ... apparently.
And, those Aldermen did indeed change their vote. That portion of the meeting went pretty much without incident.
The drama came in when they voted to put the question on November general election of whether our city's council should, by ordiance, be able to restrict the location of "medical clinics" in the City of Berwyn. Had to be worded "medical clinics". A few audience members did not grasp how the motion had to be phrased and their questions were answered. A few others in the audience demanded to know why such an ordinance could not be drafted now. The Buonauro clinic woman stood up and yelled, "This is NOT an open forum, Mister Mayor" - and stomped out of the council chambers, followed by her entourage of two.
Full house plus overflow. Don't know of an actual headcount. Rumor earlier in the evening there was to be some kind of demonstration/protest march from 33rd/Grove to City Hall. Did that ever happen?
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on July 22, 2008, 10:32:27 PM
And, those Aldermen did indeed change their vote. That portion of the meeting went pretty much without incident.
The drama came in when they voted to put the question on November general election of whether our city's council should, by ordiance, be able to restrict the location of "medical clinics" in the City of Berwyn. Had to be worded "medical clinics". A few audience members did not grasp how the motion had to be phrased and their questions were answered. A few others in the audience demanded to know why such an ordinance could not be drafted now. The Buonauro clinic woman stood up and yelled, "This is NOT an open forum, Mister Mayor" - and stomped out of the council chambers, followed by her entourage of two.
Full house plus overflow. Don't know of an actual headcount. Rumor earlier in the evening there was to be some kind of demonstration/protest march from 33rd/Grove to City Hall. Did that ever happen?
I posted a summary here:
http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=5833.msg100588#msg100588
Wow, see what we can do together, (or when the threat of the votes are on the line.) One down, maybe if we all fight together they will get the idea that the bull shit has to stop in this town. Congrats to us and our mouths.
Story in the Tribune today:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-methadone-clinic-berwyn_a-majul23,0,6261973.story
Berwyn revokes approval of methadone clinic
City Council votes unanimously after protest from mayor, neighbors
By Joseph Ruzich | Special to the Chicago Tribune
July 23, 2008
A week after hundreds of Berwyn residents gathered in the city's Depot District to protest a plan to open a methadone clinic there, aldermen Tuesday night reversed their earlier vote to approve the clinic. Residents who packed the City Council chamber and spilled out into the halls cheered after the aldermen voted to amend the minutes of the July 8 meeting, changing the record to show an 8-0 vote against the plan instead of 4-2 for it.
"The residents have been heard, and I will vote against the clinic," Ald. Nona Chapman, whose ward includes the proposed clinic site at 3242 Grove Ave., said before the vote. "Even if it [means the city] will incur thousands in legal fees, it will be done."
The council also voted to add a referendum question to the November ballot on prohibiting medical clinics in residential areas—a move that would in effect give the council control over any such future proposal.
Last week's protest turned raucous as sign-carrying demonstrators booed and shouted down several speakers, including the clinic's owner and aldermen who approved the treatment facility. Mayor Michael O'Connor and some residents complained that the new facility would attract a culture of drug users to the Depot District, which includes several restaurants and shops.
Elizabeth Buonauro, owner of the clinic, has said she would sue the city if the City Council revoked its approval. Her husband, Sal Sottile, reiterated Tuesday that the couple would continue its fight in court.
"This is totally unfair," said Sottile, a 17-year Berwyn resident who lives nearby. "The problem is people have preconceived ideas of the clinic, and they think the Depot District will become a needle park. That's not the case. We're here to help people—people in this community."
Buonauro has operated a similar clinic in Evanston for six years and said there have not been any problems at that location. She only accepts patients with private insurance plans.
Methadone, a strictly regulated drug usually taken in liquid form, is required by law to be administered under the care of a health-care professional. Those who take the opiate drug to lessen the pain of withdrawing from heroin and other addictive drugs must visit the clinic daily. The drug is also used to treat chronic pain, such as that associated with cancer and arthritis.
After Tuesday's council vote, Virginia Abar, 63, who lives near the proposed clinic, said she was happy with the decision.
"Now I feel safer for my granddaughter, who attends a school three blocks away," Abar said. "People do need help, but it should be in a bigger metropolitan area, not a small town like Berwyn."
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:32:39 PM
... I don't know who's selling it as alruistic and charitable, but it's not the owners...
Well, ESAD, the following statement by Mr. Sottile in the Tribune today does sound pretty altruistic to me:
"This is totally unfair," said Sottile, a 17-year Berwyn resident who lives nearby. "The problem is people have preconceived ideas of the clinic, and they think the Depot District will become a needle park. That's not the case.
We're here to help people—people in this community."
....OOOPS!!!!!
Lol!!!!
ESad could care less about the clinic. ths s simply hs opportunity to tke a bckhanded swipe at OC.
Quote from: Ted on July 23, 2008, 06:46:55 AM
Quote from: ESAD on July 21, 2008, 01:32:39 PM
... I don't know who's selling it as alruistic and charitable, but it's not the owners...
Well, ESAD, the following statement by Mr. Sottile in the Tribune today does sound pretty altruistic to me:
"This is totally unfair," said Sottile, a 17-year Berwyn resident who lives nearby. "The problem is people have preconceived ideas of the clinic, and they think the Depot District will become a needle park. That's not the case. We're here to help people—people in this community."
Faulty logic as usual, Ted. The Minutemen on Chicago expressways help people, that's their mission, but they're not altruistic. You just don't under the meaning of the word.
Quote from: SILK on July 23, 2008, 07:28:24 AM
....OOOPS!!!!!
Lol!!!!
ESad could care less about the clinic. ths s simply hs opportunity to tke a bckhanded swipe at OC.
I've got to ask, why do you spend so much time on the Berwyn Talk Forum when you don't even live in Berwyn?
As for opportunities to take swipes at the incompentent mikey, he's been providing plenty of them starting back when he was an alderman.
thanx for the expected reply.
Carry on!
Lol!!
Does anyone else get the feeling the clinic owners are painting Berwyn as a city full of junkie's with their statements about people needing their help?
Brian,
without any facts or statistical data to substantiate their claims.
I just wonder hw much greater this perceived "need" is in berwyn as oppose to other cities the same size, if at all? And how the methadone clincs n cicero do not serve this apparent "need"?
Quote from: SILK on July 23, 2008, 08:17:24 AM
thanx for the expected reply.
Carry on!
Lol!!
Silk,
You got your ass kicked in by ESAD. Live with it
Quote from: SILK on July 23, 2008, 08:31:22 AM
Brian,
without any facts or statistical data to substantiate their claims.
I just wonder hw much greater this perceived "need" is in berwyn as oppose to other cities the same size, if at all? And how the methadone clincs n cicero do not serve this apparent "need"?
Excellent point. I feel compelled to also ask why they would even want to pursue legal action, thus rather forcing themselves onto our community that clearly does not want their so-called "clinic" located here? Or, will they use any awarded money to fund their existing facilities or locate elsewhere?
Still would like to know how and when drug addicts became classified as "disabled" and could then be entitled to funds and free services. Anyone?
This would appear to be a start: http://www.jan.wvu.edu/media/drugadd.html
Also, #7 is germane: http://www.ada.gov/copsq7a.htm
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 23, 2008, 09:22:05 AM
This would appear to be a start: http://www.jan.wvu.edu/media/drugadd.html
Also, #7 is germane: http://www.ada.gov/copsq7a.htm
Thanks, Brian. Now, I'm really mad and have to wonder how people who did not
choose to disable themselves feel about this.
FilledUp,
The next time someone "kcks my ass" (LOL) on this site will be the first time. Read the responses and replies. You're the only sap snffing afte r esad like a hungry dog. I suggest you look into your camps stable of prospetve combatants to find a more worthy foe for the Silkster. Childs play so far.
p.s. n need to look far, just refer to ll schmidt's post.
Ciao!
You know FedUp, the out-of-towner certainly has a high, though undeserved, opinion of himself.
as do you, esad. Otherwise, you wouldn't be pm'ing me.
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 23, 2008, 08:24:37 AM
Does anyone else get the feeling the clinic owners are painting Berwyn as a city full of junkie's with their statements about people needing their help?
Yes! Thanks for pointing this out!...and redirecting the ad nauseum tet-a-tet this string likes to take...
I don't know what's hurt Berwyn more in recent weeks; all the press on how us residents are upset about the clinic being in a neighborhood area (like we're all puritanical freaks who don't know about drug/alcohol abuse first or secondhand already), or that we're viewed as a population of addicts who need this service, but want to drive there as opposed to walking past it on our way to work...or stagger past it - as the press would have us portrayed.
Quote from: Jennifer on July 23, 2008, 10:56:05 AM
but want to drive there as opposed to walking past it on our way to work...or stagger past it - as the press would have us portrayed.
You have to admit, that is convenient. "Breakfast bar, coffee, train pass, briefcase, methadone... ok, ready for work!"
Bastards!!! I can't believe they voted this down!
Now we're going to get sued, and more union jobs will be lost! >:(
<...."I told ya so!!!"NonaHrmph!
Chill out Bonster. We don't know that for sure yet. Even if we do, it seems the citizens have spoken loudly enough to get alderpeople to change theri minds. If they were willing to change theri minds, they shuld be willing to back any possible litigation that ensues. If they are not, then their vote will prove to be nothing but insincere with thought of reelections clouding their best judgement.
I'd like to know the answer to the following question:
If Mike O'Connor had supported the methadone clinic, would the Gang of Four still have voted YAY?
I'd still like to know if this was put on Roosevelt and Kenilworth if any of you would have cared.(unlikely) No schools to walk by, no pediatricians to visit, and no shoppers to maul plus it's the North Side.
Frank,
Unless you've been alseep, or partaking in absinthe, for the entire thread, LOCATION is what the issue is all about.
For the record, I would have no problem if it was located in an industrial area, say like Turano's. ;)
Quote from: SILK on July 23, 2008, 07:26:54 PM
Frank,
Unless you've been alseep, or partaking in absinthe, for the entire thread, LOCATION is what the issue is all about.
For the record, I would have no problem if it was located in an industrial area, say like Turano's. ;)
Turano's workers are on heroin?
Now Silky the location was the issue I do understand, it was in the Depot Dump and on the South Side.
And yes they are on heroin Bon.
Quote from: SILK on July 23, 2008, 07:13:22 PM
I'd like to know the answer to the following question:
If Mike O'Connor had supported the methadone clinic, would the Gang of Four still have voted YAY?
Silklessness, if you paid attention or had known better, you would realize the OC knew this
was a methadone clinic from day one back in January. The owner told me she would have walked
away from day one if he had any negative feelings towards such. The mayor perpetuated this mess.
Impending litigation will document such.
OC's appointed zoning person, who was the investigator, caused this clusterRita. If you had ever attended a zoning meeting, you would realize the ineptitude of this IVB appointment.
Perhaps you should concentrate your efforts on little pink houses in your hood in IN
instead of your tiresome and excesive blather here which offends all on BTF.
What exactly do you not get counselor? It shames me and your profession to use the word counselor and silk
in the same post.
The mayor?
The mayor has NOTHING to do wth denying a business license, nor does he normally have a vote when it comes to requests for special use permits before City Council , unless there is a deadlock. So remind us once agan genius-OC's apointment, Debi Suchy, did what when asked for a business license? OC did exactly what when he was asked to vote on it? HIS zoning person? The zba, the body which issues a recommendation, has several of YOUR people on it, doesn't it?
How do you know what impending litigation will entail? You can barely spell the damn word. When is the last time you litigated anything but your last bowel movement?
I can GUARANTEE you this-I've appeared before a zba at least one more time than you have.
And exactly how do you propose the "owner" of the clinic will get in hearsay evidence in litigation, if in fact the mayor had given any type of approval? And even if he had given his "approval", worthless as it may be, how is this an ok to open up a methadone clinic? How is it relevant?
What this board tires of is your drunken and incoherent ramblings. Concentrate on making it home the half block or so from OoT without falling and further damaging that catastrophe you call a face, and then worry about rendering legal opinions. Or at least get a better set of "advisors" than the merry band of misfits and incompetents on the dcob e-mail hotline.
Quote from: Bear on July 23, 2008, 09:14:02 PM
Quote from: SILK on July 23, 2008, 07:13:22 PM
I'd like to know the answer to the following question:
If Mike O'Connor had supported the methadone clinic, would the Gang of Four still have voted YAY?
Silklessness, if you paid attention or had known better, you would realize the OC knew this
was a methadone clinic from day one back in January. The owner told me she would have walked
away from day one if he had any negative feelings towards such. The mayor perpetuated this mess.
Impending litigation will document such.
OC's appointed zoning person, who was the investigator, caused this clusterRita. If you had ever attended a zoning meeting, you would realize the ineptitude of this IVB appointment.
Perhaps you should concentrate your efforts on little pink houses in your hood in IN
instead of your tiresome and excesive blather here which offends all on BTF.
What exactly do you not get counselor? It shames me and your profession to use the word counselor and silk
in the same post.
Agreed. People that the mayor appointed on the ZBA approved this in the first place. OC told the clinic owners to look for a lease. OC then claims that he didn't know what type of substance abuse clinic it was --- Mayor, unless you got your law degree from Sweet Valley High (Silk's alma mater), you would ask what type of substance abuse clinic it was when you first heard about it. Are there other substance abuse clinics you are OK with? You turned the situation into political bedlam for your benefit just when your political career was at its nadir. While I am glad with the outcome of the clinic being voted down, OC should have nipped this thing in the bud when he knew about it in the first place. Now I think he has bigger things to worry about than his impending election loss in 09' --- he better start looking for a good attorney for himself...
"What ths board tires of is your drunken and incoherent ramblings."
As I and all involved here for some time recall, you were banned by admin FOREVER
for past transgressions here on BTF in the past.
Your attacks upon those who had viable cause and content to contribute here on BTF repulsed them, and they quit posting and contributing because of your attacks.
But here you are again, with a new IP to avoid the ban, and continuing the same transgressions that you have done in the past.
Perhaps admin could enlighten all of us as to how this situation came to be.
BEAR,
When I see you in person I'll explain. :D ;)
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 09:46:06 PM
Agreed. People that the mayor appointed on the ZBA approved this in the first place.
Did he appoint Nora Laureto?
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 09:46:06 PM
Now I think he has bigger things to worry about than his impending election loss in 09'
How is that possible when there's no one worthy of filling the position?
QuotePerhaps admin could enlighten all of us as to how this situation came to be.
P-Panther was banned because he ran around saying the same shit over and over like Rainman on crack. Like Rainman, he really didn't listen, and unlike Rainman, got the boot.
It was not about what he said but rather the behavior that accompanied it.
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 23, 2008, 10:11:15 PM
QuotePerhaps admin could enlighten all of us as to how this situation came to be.
P-Panther was banned because he ran around saying the same shit over and over like Rainman on crack. Like Rainman, he really didn't listen, and unlike Rainman, got the boot.
It was not about what he said but rather the behavior that accompanied it.
And the same person is still here today, doing the same things, BTF members grasp
that unfortunate consequence, so it goes.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 09:46:06 PM
Agreed. People that the mayor appointed on the ZBA approved this in the first place.
The people that the mayor appointed didn't approve squat IN THE FIRST PLACE.
First and foremost, its a zoning board of APPEALS. As such, the matter is not one of first impression when it gets to them.
Secondly, they render a non-binding advisory opinion/recommendation. That's all they're empowered to do.
QuoteOC told the clinic owners to look for a lease.
So?
If you want to apply for a business license, I would imagine that the City would want to know where your business will be located.
QuoteOC then claims that he didn't know what type of substance abuse clinic it was --- Mayor, unless you got your law degree from Sweet Valley High (Silk's alma mater), you would ask what type of substance abuse clinic it was when you first heard about it.
Okay Confucious, please fill us in as to what substance abuse has to do with what's taught in law school? Perhaps Torts I or Civil Procedure II has now been replaced by Methadone and You? :D ;D :D And in any event, OC isn't an attorney. Bob Lovero is.
QuoteAre there other substance abuse clinics you are OK with?
You think ALL substance abuse clinics are the same?
QuoteYou turned the situation into political bedlam for your benefit
If the Methadone Quartet opened the door, why not? How about the assclowns who voted FOR it in the first place? I say its just desserts.
Quotejust when your political career was at its nadir.
Says who, the brdo?
QuoteWhile I am glad with the outcome of the clinic being voted down,
You're WHAT? How can the outcome of the clinic be voted down?
QuoteOC should have nipped this thing in the bud when he knew about it in the first place. Now I think he has bigger things to worry about than his impending election loss in 09'
Its not OC's issue to nip in the bud in the first place. He's not the city clerk, nor the zba, nor City Council (when there isn't a deadlock).
Quote--- he better start looking for a good attorney for himself...
Good luck with that Junior. What legal theory is OC going to be sued under? And even if he were, the City will foot the bill, courtesy of, you guessed it .... the Gang of Four (and their votes on the Phelan issue). :D :D :D :D
You really didn't just say the above, did you? ???
Quote from: Bear on July 23, 2008, 10:21:51 PM
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 23, 2008, 10:11:15 PM
QuotePerhaps admin could enlighten all of us as to how this situation came to be.
P-Panther was banned because he ran around saying the same shit over and over like Rainman on crack. Like Rainman, he really didn't listen, and unlike Rainman, got the boot.
It was not about what he said but rather the behavior that accompanied it.
And the same person is still here today, doing the same things, BTF members grasp
that unfortunate consequence, so it goes.
If people want to stop reading, fine by me. If they want to keep reading, fine by me.
I'm disappointed they succumbed to the pressure.
WEAK leadership skills shown by those who claimed to have the right answer for us.
They also proved they are out of touch with their constituents and haven't a CLUE to which direction they should be leading Berwyn.
Quote from: SILK on July 23, 2008, 10:22:40 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 09:46:06 PM
Agreed. People that the mayor appointed on the ZBA approved this in the first place.
The people that the mayor appointed didn't approve squat IN THE FIRST PLACE.
First and foremost, its a zoning board of APPEALS. As such, the matter is not one of first impression when it gets to them.
Secondly, they render a non-binding advisory opinion/recommendation. That's all they're empowered to do.
QuoteOC told the clinic owners to look for a lease.
So?
If you want to apply for a business license, I would imagine that the City would want to know where your business will be located.
QuoteOC then claims that he didn't know what type of substance abuse clinic it was --- Mayor, unless you got your law degree from Sweet Valley High (Silk's alma mater), you would ask what type of substance abuse clinic it was when you first heard about it.
Okay Confucious, please fill us in as to what substance abuse has to do with what's taught in law school? Perhaps Torts I or Civil Procedure II has now been replaced by Methadone and You? :D ;D :D And in any event, OC isn't an attorney. Bob Lovero is.
QuoteAre there other substance abuse clinics you are OK with?
You think ALL substance abuse clinics are the same?
QuoteYou turned the situation into political bedlam for your benefit
If the Methadone Quartet opened the door, why not? How about the assclowns who voted FOR it in the first place? I say its just desserts.
Quotejust when your political career was at its nadir.
Says who, the brdo?
QuoteWhile I am glad with the outcome of the clinic being voted down,
You're WHAT? How can the outcome of the clinic be voted down?
QuoteOC should have nipped this thing in the bud when he knew about it in the first place. Now I think he has bigger things to worry about than his impending election loss in 09'
Its not OC's issue to nip in the bud in the first place. He's not the city clerk, nor the zba, nor City Council (when there isn't a deadlock).
Quote--- he better start looking for a good attorney for himself...
Good luck with that Junior. What legal theory is OC going to be sued under? And even if he were, the City will foot the bill, courtesy of, you guessed it .... the Gang of Four (and their votes on the Phelan issue). :D :D :D :D
You really didn't just say the above, did you? ???
Stay away from the P-Panther:
http://www.illinois-dui-defense.com/
He only worries about abusers of other kinds of substances.
First you complain about the aldermen voting for the clinic. Then you complain that when they switched their votes, there may be a lawsuit (the reason they voted for it in the first place). You can't have it both ways P-Panther/Silk. The potential lawsuit has nothing to do with the switching of the votes. If all 8 aldermen would have voted against it (had Old Man Day and Rapid Tongue Ramos been present at that meeting), the clinic could still sue for the same reason.
@Bonster,
Finally, someone who points out the blatantly obvious.
Leaders are ones that a) stand by their convictions, irrespective of the cost, and/or b) take their constituents desires into account in the first place.
The Methadone Quartet did NEITHER.
Rather, they played the game of political partisanship/retribution ..... and LOST, BIG TIME!!!!!!!!!
Now they're crying over spilled milk. It should appall EVERY single Berwyn resident that the Methadone Quartet had the audacity to even CONSIDER voting yes (for WHATEVER reason), much the less doing so TWICE.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 10:40:35 PM
Quote from: SILK on July 23, 2008, 10:22:40 PM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 09:46:06 PM
Agreed. People that the mayor appointed on the ZBA approved this in the first place.
The people that the mayor appointed didn't approve squat IN THE FIRST PLACE.
First and foremost, its a zoning board of APPEALS. As such, the matter is not one of first impression when it gets to them.
Secondly, they render a non-binding advisory opinion/recommendation. That's all they're empowered to do.
QuoteOC told the clinic owners to look for a lease.
So?
If you want to apply for a business license, I would imagine that the City would want to know where your business will be located.
QuoteOC then claims that he didn't know what type of substance abuse clinic it was --- Mayor, unless you got your law degree from Sweet Valley High (Silk's alma mater), you would ask what type of substance abuse clinic it was when you first heard about it.
Okay Confucious, please fill us in as to what substance abuse has to do with what's taught in law school? Perhaps Torts I or Civil Procedure II has now been replaced by Methadone and You? :D ;D :D And in any event, OC isn't an attorney. Bob Lovero is.
QuoteAre there other substance abuse clinics you are OK with?
You think ALL substance abuse clinics are the same?
QuoteYou turned the situation into political bedlam for your benefit
If the Methadone Quartet opened the door, why not? How about the assclowns who voted FOR it in the first place? I say its just desserts.
Quotejust when your political career was at its nadir.
Says who, the brdo?
QuoteWhile I am glad with the outcome of the clinic being voted down,
You're WHAT? How can the outcome of the clinic be voted down?
QuoteOC should have nipped this thing in the bud when he knew about it in the first place. Now I think he has bigger things to worry about than his impending election loss in 09'
Its not OC's issue to nip in the bud in the first place. He's not the city clerk, nor the zba, nor City Council (when there isn't a deadlock).
Quote--- he better start looking for a good attorney for himself...
Good luck with that Junior. What legal theory is OC going to be sued under? And even if he were, the City will foot the bill, courtesy of, you guessed it .... the Gang of Four (and their votes on the Phelan issue). :D :D :D :D
You really didn't just say the above, did you? ???
Stay away from the P-Panther:
http://www.illinois-dui-defense.com/
He only worries about abusers of other kinds of substances.
First you complain about the aldermen voting for the clinic. Then you complain that when they switched their votes, there may be a lawsuit (the reason they voted for it in the first place). You can't have it both ways P-Panther/Silk. The potential lawsuit has nothing to do with the switching of the votes. If all 8 aldermen would have voted against it (had Old Man Day and Rapid Tongue Ramos been present at that meeting), the clinic could still sue for the same reason.
Attaboy Bennifer, I expected nothing less from you. Where did you get that little tidbit from, the boneheads on the dcob e-mail hotline?
You may want to check with your "friends" before you go there. It's a loser proposition for you guys, on MULTIPLE fronts. I'll take the high road and let it pass (I
NEVER go there), but if you want to keep pushing, all bets are off....
For the record, I complained that they didn't stand by their convictions. Reading is a skill.
So now, please enlighten us, what legal theory will the Buonauro's sue under?
Hey Bennifer, or anyone, please explain the relevance of the dui link in the previous post. did i miss something?
No relevance whatsoever, unless of course we're talking about those arrested and charged with DUI. If the assclowns know what's good for them, they'll remain silent on the issue.
Nonetheless, that IS one "dapper" fella in the picture... :D :D :D :D
Dui convictions? I cant help but ask who! I am sure SILK really wont mind it being discussed. ;)
Quote from: good4berwyn on July 23, 2008, 11:25:02 PM
Dui convictions? I cant help but ask who! I am sure SILK really wont mind it being discussed. ;)
Let's not go there.
Thanks.
I never said a conviction, and I'm not going there ...........................................
Nice picture Andy, your pose is so striking. You look like a deep thinker.
You probably should up date it a little, boy time goes by fast!!
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 09:46:06 PM
... OC told the clinic owners to look for a lease. OC then claims that he didn't know what type of substance abuse clinic it was --- Mayor, unless you got your law degree from Sweet Valley High (Silk's alma mater), you would ask what type of substance abuse clinic it was when you first heard about it. Are there other substance abuse clinics you are OK with? ...
What evidence do you have that the Mayor said that ("told the owners to look for a lease")? What evidence do you have that the Mayor knew it was a methadone clinic when the original license was applied for? Were the owners up front with people in stating they were opening up a methadone clinic?
FYI, there other types of substance abuse clinics Liz Buonauro herself stated that the clinc would help people with addiction to prescription drugs. A clinic to help people with addictions to prescription drugs sounds a whole lot different than a clinic that dispenses and sells methadone for a profit.
Heck, were the owners up front with the owner of the property that they were opening up a methadone clinic? Or were the clinic owners trying to sneak something by people before people realized what had opened up?
There is evidence that in April, the mayor had found out that this was a methadone clinic and that the mayor broke a tie vote to stop the methadone clinic and that vote to break the tie didn't get much press at the time. If the mayor had wanted to turn this into a political football, why didn't he do that last April?
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 10:40:35 PM
... If all 8 aldermen would have voted against it (had Old Man Day and Rapid Tongue Ramos been present at that meeting), the clinic could still sue for the same reason...
But all 8 aldermen didn't vote against it, did they? That fact and the fact it passed at the July 8 council meeting is just going to exacerbate the situation and add credence to a potential lawsuit.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 09:46:06 PM
... Now I think he has bigger things to worry about than his impending election loss in 09' --- he better start looking for a good attorney for himself...
On what charges? What are your allegations? If your going to make a statement like that, you should provide more evidence for why you think the "mayor needs a good attorney for himself".
btw, a certain elected official in the DCOB stated the same thing to me but had nothing more than that statement when I pressed him for details. Sounds like the Marzullo character assassination machine is back in full campaign mode again.
Ted
What did the Public Notice say? Does anyone know? They had to post one at one time, and I didn't/don't remember seeing it in "Life". I don't know how to look it up either....Duh.
About Ms. Buonauro, she's not coming off as being very professional, storming out all the time. Perhaps she needs some anger management.
Quote from: Ted on July 24, 2008, 05:48:12 AM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 09:46:06 PM
... OC told the clinic owners to look for a lease. OC then claims that he didn't know what type of substance abuse clinic it was --- Mayor, unless you got your law degree from Sweet Valley High (Silk's alma mater), you would ask what type of substance abuse clinic it was when you first heard about it. Are there other substance abuse clinics you are OK with? ...
What evidence do you have that the Mayor said that ("told the owners to look for a lease")? What evidence do you have that the Mayor knew it was a methadone clinic when the original license was applied for? Were the owners up front with people in stating they were opening up a methadone clinic?
Ted,
This is the EXACT same garbage that I heard when I spoke to a South Berwyn business owner yesterday. Said owner was simply conveying what he/she heard from dcob supporters visiting the establishment. What I heard from the owner is VERBATIM what Bennifer posted above, namely "OC told Liz to
LOOK FOR A LEASE". (Once I filled the owner in a bit, his/her tone/attitude changed quite a bit).
Which begs the question-what do these people do, huddle beforehand and come up with stock answers?
How would Bennifer know what OC did or didn't say to Liz beforehand? What proof is there that he actually did? And even if there is, how is it relevant and what difference does it make?
As you intimated earlier, the proof is in the pudding. The mayor was asked to vote on it, way back in April, and said
NAY. Case closed.
It absolutely amazes me that common sense has taken such a backseat to politicking and spin doctoring. You can support the dcob and the Gang of Four all you want, but on this issue, the four aldermen were DEAD WRONG. FOR ONCE, PEOPLE SHOULD PUT POLITICS ASIDE AND VOTE/ACT BASED ON THE BEST INTERESTS OF THE CITY, ESPECIALLY ON SUCH A HOT BUTTON/IMPORTANT ISSUE. They can resume the bickering, fighting, and mudslinging on OTHER issues.
I even spotted several longtime Berwyn Dems in the crowd last Wednesday that were absolutely IRATE at the YAY vote. How people on this site are attempting to put an "its OC's fault" spin on it is beyond me, especially since without the four YAYS, what OC did or didn't do would be absolutely IRRELEVANT.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 10:40:35 PM
(had Old Man Day and Rapid Tongue Ramos been present at that meeting)
Quote from: FedUpSimply put what gives you the right you attach monikers such as you did to not only these people but anyone. All of us should think about what we say befors we say it. Because once its said it cannot be taken back. THINK!!! These alderpersons have families, mothers, sisters children, they may go to school with your children. This is what we teach our youth? I don't know if you have children or not but if you do examples need to be set every minute of everyday. These alderpeople are in the position they are because we put them there. They work their asses off and continue to do so even when we don't agree with what they do. So how dare you or anyone of us slander their names in the manner in which you did. You should be ashamed of yourself.
"Simply put what gives you the right you attach monikers such as you did to not only these people but anyone. All of us should think about what we say befors we say it. Because once its said it cannot be taken back. THINK!!! These alderpersons have families, mothers, sisters children, they may go to school with your children. This is what we teach our youth? I don't know if you have children or not but if you do examples need to be set every minute of everyday. These alderpeople are in the position they are because we put them there. They work their asses off and continue to do so even when we don't agree with what they do. So how dare you or anyone of us slander their names in the manner in which you did. You should be ashamed of yourself. " FedUp
FedUp: I agree with the above. Seems curious to me, though, that you write this here. Remember Harvey Dent.
Quote from: frank white on July 23, 2008, 07:16:38 PM
I'd still like to know if this was put on Roosevelt and Kenilworth if any of you would have cared.(unlikely) No schools to walk by, no pediatricians to visit, and no shoppers to maul plus it's the North Side.
Frank White, not that I want to be insulting or cause yet another argument on this forum, but try reading previous pages before you jump on the "No one cares if it is in North Berwyn" band wagon. I and several others have stated that we do not want it in any part of Berwyn. Check the previous pages examples on pages 40, 41 and I am sure quite a few others. Also stated was that we all need to show a united front across the city.
Quote from: buzz on July 24, 2008, 06:52:22 AM
About Ms. Buonauro, she's not coming off as being very professional, storming out all the time. Perhaps she needs some anger management.
Maybe she needs some more Methadone??? ;)
Quote from: Thor on July 24, 2008, 10:50:07 AM
Quote from: buzz on July 24, 2008, 06:52:22 AM
About Ms. Buonauro, she's not coming off as being very professional, storming out all the time. Perhaps she needs some anger management.
Maybe she needs some more Methadone??? ;)
(http://www.barbandgreg.com/images/Emoticons/drum.gif)
Quote from: Bonster on July 24, 2008, 11:01:19 AM
(http://www.barbandgreg.com/images/Emoticons/drum.gif)
This is SO my new favorite emoticon!
Quote from: Thor on July 24, 2008, 10:50:07 AM
Quote from: buzz on July 24, 2008, 06:52:22 AM
About Ms. Buonauro, she's not coming off as being very professional, storming out all the time. Perhaps she needs some anger management.
Maybe she needs some more Methadone??? ;)
Or less...
Quote from: SILK on July 23, 2008, 10:48:22 AM
as do you, esad. Otherwise, you wouldn't be pm'ing me.
As you know, I was pm'ing to save the others from the "ad nauseum tet-tet" we've been having. Since you didn't respond to the pm's, I can only assume you're ego demands that everyone see what you have to say.
Mr. Grammar Dick,
YOUR ego.
Not YOU'RE ego.
Good Afternoon.
LOL!!!!
Stop.
Both of you.
Quote from: SILK on July 24, 2008, 03:53:40 PM
Mr. Grammar Dick,
YOUR ego.
Not YOU'RE ego.
Good Afternoon.
LOL!!!!
Mea Culpa. I was typing too fast. I also misspelled tet-e-tet.
If you don't like it admin, step in sooner next time. I know you have the power of an IT god on the forum.
Same 'ole Panther. Still picking fights and arguing with everyone and anyone about everything and anything just to hear/read himself talk. This wasn't acceptable behavior in the past, I guess now it is. It's either admin gets rid of people or people get fed up with Panther/SILK/Andy and his name calling and attacks. No wonder people don't seem to stick around here for too long and don't continue to post! :(
Quote from: time after time on July 24, 2008, 04:49:42 PM
Same 'ole Panther. Still picking fights and arguing with everyone and anyone about everything and anything just to hear/read himself talk. This wasn't acceptable behavior in the past, I guess now it is. It's either admin gets rid of people or people get fed up with Panther/SILK/Andy and his name calling and attacks. No wonder people don't seem to stick around here for too long and don't continue to post! :(
Bear said something similar, but.....who quit posting over P-Panther?
When I got tired of fighting with him I just stopped. That's only cuz he's in better shape than I, though.
Quote from: Bonster on July 24, 2008, 08:30:47 AM
Quote from: Bennifer on July 23, 2008, 10:40:35 PM
(had Old Man Day and Rapid Tongue Ramos been present at that meeting)
Quote from: FedUpSimply put what gives you the right you attach monikers such as you did to not only these people but anyone. All of us should think about what we say befors we say it. Because once its said it cannot be taken back. THINK!!! These alderpersons have families, mothers, sisters children, they may go to school with your children. This is what we teach our youth? I don't know if you have children or not but if you do examples need to be set every minute of everyday. These alderpeople are in the position they are because we put them there. They work their asses off and continue to do so even when we don't agree with what they do. So how dare you or anyone of us slander their names in the manner in which you did. You should be ashamed of yourself.
I think "Old Man Day" is a little more lighthearted than the bile that's been spewed here (e.g., Methadone Quartet, etc.). Grow up.
Quote from: Bonster on July 24, 2008, 05:21:10 PM
Quote from: time after time on July 24, 2008, 04:49:42 PM
Same 'ole Panther. Still picking fights and arguing with everyone and anyone about everything and anything just to hear/read himself talk. This wasn't acceptable behavior in the past, I guess now it is. It's either admin gets rid of people or people get fed up with Panther/SILK/Andy and his name calling and attacks. No wonder people don't seem to stick around here for too long and don't continue to post! :(
Bear said something similar, but.....who quit posting over P-Panther?
When I got tired of fighting with him I just stopped. That's only cuz he's in better shape than I, though.
I don't know if anyone actually quit posting because of Panther because that's not what I meant. I think some just get tired of defending their own opinions and I think some refrain from posting at all because they'd rather avoid a pissing match. Personally, I just get tired of reading it.
Yeah, I know, it's my choice to read or not to read.
Ted, not trying to pick a fight here, but you said there is a difference between a meth clinic and a clinic treating addictions to prescription drugs. Methadone is used to treat addictions to prescription opiods (codeine, oxycodone for example). An opioid addiction and the addict's behavior is the same regardless if it is an addiction to heroin or oxycodone.
On another note, has anyone noted the hypocrisy in Buonauro's statements? In the July 23rd Tribune article, Sottile (Buonauro's husband) implies those of us opposed to the clinic are misinformed and discriminatory against those with opioid addiction. Then Buonauro states her clinic in Evanston only accepts patients with private insurance. Isn't Buonauro discriminating against those with Medicaid and those without any insurance--or is she telling us the uninsured addicts are the ones we should not want around our children?
Quote from: pt dpt on July 24, 2008, 06:01:41 PM
Ted, not trying to pick a fight here, but you said there is a difference between a meth clinic and a clinic treating addictions to prescription drugs.
The difference is that when treating people with a prescription drug addiction, you are not giving them prescription drugs to kick the habit.
With a methadone clinic, an addictive drug is being given to addicts, thus leaving the way for some people to use the fact that the clinic exists to get drugs.
if the clinic would take in heroine addicts who are trying to quit cold turkey, then I think it would be a different story. But they are not. They are dispensing addicitve drugs and that is the main difference.
Ted
Ted, they are dispensing methadone to people addicted to prescription opioids. That was my point.
Quote from: Bennifer on July 24, 2008, 05:40:23 PM
I think "Old Man Day" is a little more lighthearted than the bile that's been spewed here (e.g., Methadone Quartet, etc.). Grow up.
Yeahhh...OK. "Old Man Day." Nothing that spews from your keyboard around here is lighthearted.
Quote from: time after time on July 24, 2008, 05:49:52 PM
Quote from: Bonster on July 24, 2008, 05:21:10 PM
Quote from: time after time on July 24, 2008, 04:49:42 PM
Same 'ole Panther. Still picking fights and arguing with everyone and anyone about everything and anything just to hear/read himself talk. This wasn't acceptable behavior in the past, I guess now it is. It's either admin gets rid of people or people get fed up with Panther/SILK/Andy and his name calling and attacks. No wonder people don't seem to stick around here for too long and don't continue to post! :(
Bear said something similar, but.....who quit posting over P-Panther?
When I got tired of fighting with him I just stopped. That's only cuz he's in better shape than I, though.
I don't know if anyone actually quit posting because of Panther because that's not what I meant. I think some just get tired of defending their own opinions and I think some refrain from posting at all because they'd rather avoid a pissing match. Personally, I just get tired of reading it.
Yeah, arguing with P-Panther was a tall task.
I'm sure some don't care for Boris and jake going at it either, but that's just politics.
Quote from: apatriot on March 28, 2008, 08:36:51 PM
We can argue that all day long, but nevertheless, this is the nature of politics.
Quote from: Ted on July 24, 2008, 06:14:48 PM
Quote from: pt dpt on July 24, 2008, 06:01:41 PM
Ted, not trying to pick a fight here, but you said there is a difference between a meth clinic and a clinic treating addictions to prescription drugs.
The difference is that when treating people with a prescription drug addiction, you are not giving them prescription drugs to kick the habit.
With a methadone clinic, an addictive drug is being given to addicts, thus leaving the way for some people to use the fact that the clinic exists to get drugs.
if the clinic would take in heroine addicts who are trying to quit cold turkey, then I think it would be a different story. But they are not. They are dispensing addicitve drugs and that is the main difference.
Ted
Ted:
That's the crux of the debate on the efficacy of methadone treatment; thank you for pointing that out.
And, it doesn't have to be "cold turkey or the highway"; IMO the real problem with methadone treatment (and "for profit" methadone dispensers) is that it has evolved into a replacement-drug, rather than the
tool it was intended to be: a tool (used with intense in-patient & out-patient treatment, and family therapy) to ween the addict off of ALL opioids!
Quote from: pt dpt on July 24, 2008, 06:19:56 PM
Ted, they are dispensing methadone to people addicted to prescription opioids. That was my point.
OK. I didn't realize that methadone was being dispensed to people addicted to prescription drugs.
The same principle applies - if the clinic is dispensing methadone, I don't think it should be in a residential neighborhood because it might attract drug dealers and people looking to get drugs.
Ted
Ted: I absolutely agree. The reason I wanted to clarify this issue was to support your point. The clinic does not want to treat addiction, they want to dispense methadone to make a profit. This is why she only takes private insurance--Medicaid and the uninsured don't pay as much (if at all).
Quote from: pt dpt on July 24, 2008, 08:10:32 PM
Ted: I absolutely agree. The reason I wanted to clarify this issue was to support your point. The clinic does not want to treat addiction, they want to dispense methadone to make a profit. This is why she only takes private insurance--Medicaid and the uninsured don't pay as much (if at all).
According to one of Liz Bounauro's post, she doesn't take Medicaid or uninsured at all:
Quote from: Liz Buonauro on July 14, 2008, 02:42:57 PM
1. How many patients do you intend to serve?
5-100
2. Would they all be daily patients? What % of the patients from the Berwyn clinic would likely be daily?
No-10% daily
3. Do you accept Medicaid?
NO
Major Insurance?
Yes
What % of your patients are Medicaid?
N/A
What % are private insurance?
35%
4. Why does your clinic provide a private security guard?
Because methadone is the most controlled drug in the UNITED STATES. The security is there to protect the methadone.
5. Did you do any research regarding the need in Berwyn that brought you to the conclusion that there are Berwynites who are in need of methadone?
YES
Do you currently serve any Berwyn patients in your other clinics?
YES, at the one clinic I own in Evanston
Article in the Life newspaper:
http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/berwyn/news/x379996077/Methadone-clinic-booted-from-Depot-District
Methadone clinic booted from Depot District
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Danya Hooker, dhooker@mysuburbanlife.com
Berwyn Life
Thu Jul 24, 2008, 03:57 PM CDT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berwyn, IL -
Berwyn City Council members revoked their approval Tuesday of a methadone clinic planned for the city's Depot District. The move came less than a week after hundreds of residents protested the council's earlier vote to approve the clinic, which would administer methadone to people addicted to opiates, particularly heroin. All four alderman who previously had approved the clinic reversed their votes Tuesday, despite the likelihood the vote would result in an anti-discrimination lawsuit against the city.
"The residents have been heard, and I will vote against the clinic," 1st Ward Alderman Nona Chapman said. "Even though it may incur thousands of dollars in legal fees, it will be done."
Three aldermen, including attorney and 7th Ward Alderman Robert Lovero, said that knowing a denial of the clinic could make the city vulnerable to a lawsuit influenced their original decision.
"My legal brain outweighed my aldermanic heart and led to a vote that clearly did not (match) the views of the rest of the city," Lovero said.
Sal Sottile, who operates the clinic with Elizabeth Buonauro, said he was upset but not surprised by the meeting's outcome.
"It's about what we expected," Sottile said, adding the clinic does plan to sue the city. "Absolutely," he said. "It's in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act."
The clinic won approval from the Zoning Board of Appeals in March. In April, the city council voted 4-4 on whether to approve the clinic before Mayor Michael O'Connor broke the tie and voted against it. The measure came before the council again July 8, and the same four members voted in favor of the clinic. Fifth Ward Alderman Tom Day and 2nd Ward Alderman Jim Ramos were not present at the July 8 meeting, and the clinic won final approval.
Shortly after, Mayor Michael O'Connor held a town meeting to allow aldermen to hear what residents thought about the clinic. An estimated 400 people attended the meeting and decried the council's approval of the clinic. The Depot District, where the proposed clinic would be located, is a family-oriented business area, residents argued. The aldermen then promised to reverse their decision.
Also Tuesday, the council unanimously approved a measure to put a nonbinding referendum question on the Nov. 4 ballot. Voters will be asked whether the city should regulate where medical clinics are allowed in Berwyn and would give the council the go-ahead to monitor the locations of all medical clinics, including those providing methadone.
"This referendum gives you the chance in November to tell us 'Yes, we want medical clinics to be regulated,'" Skryd said.
Several residents in the packed council chambers said they were upset the referendum did not include an outright ban on methadone clinics. The aldermen said the city is not legally allowed to target methadone clinics and, as such, the referendum refers only to medical clinics.
"If they're doing the best they can to stop this, then that's great," resident Janice Keen said. "But the reality is there needs to be a state law."
Quote from: time after time on July 24, 2008, 04:49:42 PM
Same 'ole Panther. Still picking fights and arguing with everyone and anyone about everything and anything just to hear/read himself talk. This wasn't acceptable behavior in the past, I guess now it is. It's either admin gets rid of people or people get fed up with Panther/SILK/Andy and his name calling and attacks. No wonder people don't seem to stick around here for too long and don't continue to post! :(
You're certainly correct about Silk posting just to see/hear himself. Why else would someone who doesn't even live in Illinois be posting here? He's just a preening narcissist. One look at the glamour photo on his Web site is ample proof. If he wasn't such good friends with admin, I suspect the pitpoodle would have been muzzled a long time ago.
As to the "pt dpt" post re: Medicaid. I'm sure there are financial implications, but it's my understanding you also lose control over your clientele. As a private clinic, Liz can decide who she accepts for treatment and who she keeps. If you don't follow clinic rules regarding treatment and behavior, you're gone.
ESAD, unfortunately Liz Buonauro can not control herself long enough to explain her motivations and clinic policies and procedures. Until she shows a little professionalism I will continue to question her judgment. Furthermore, I am in the medical field and hold a doctorate level degree. I have been around enough to know everything is motivated by money. If Medicaid reimbursed at the same level and as quickly as private insurance, Liz would accept the behavior of those patients. Ask any physician in private practice that only accepts certain insurance providers why they do not accept patients on Medicare or Medicaid. The answer will not be noncompliance of Medicare/Medicaid patients, it will be reimbursement.
Wht I'd like to know is, where has Pheln been in all of this? He has baely said a word. If anyone (outside of Nona, of course) deserves a pastng on this issue, it's Mr Run and Hide Phelan.
Um... excuse me? Doesn't Liz's business model depend on the patients being noncompliant? I mean, a compliant patient would be attending the 12 step programs, going to counseling, staying clean and getting his ever decreasing supply of methadone. Inside of 6 weeks, Liz would have no more patients as they are all "weaned" off of the opoids, were they all compliant. Its the NONCOMPLIANT patients that are profitable... and therein lies my beef wh the entire methadone concept.
People like Liz and her husband make MONEY off of others misery -- and continue the misery. I find that thought to be completely reprehensible.
Quote from: pt dpt on July 25, 2008, 10:55:58 AM
ESAD, unfortunately Liz Buonauro can not control herself long enough to explain her motivations and clinic policies and procedures. Until she shows a little professionalism I will continue to question her judgment. Furthermore, I am in the medical field and hold a doctorate level degree. I have been around enough to know everything is motivated by money. If Medicaid reimbursed at the same level and as quickly as private insurance, Liz would accept the behavior of those patients. Ask any physician in private practice that only accepts certain insurance providers why they do not accept patients on Medicare or Medicaid. The answer will not be noncompliance of Medicare/Medicaid patients, it will be reimbursement.
As I said, there are financial implications. But Liz wants to, and does, run an orderly clinic because she doesn't take or keep all comers. If you accept government money, you can't pick and chose, the result being the image a lot of people have of a methadone clinic. I'm sure you're correct, the GP down the street isn't taking Medicare patients due to reimbursement issues, not because some of the patients might misbehave or not take their meds.
It was clear at the protest rally, at City Hall, and it's clear on this forum, that very few people are really interested in what Liz and Sal have to say. And now there's no point in their answering any questions. In any event, this issue has been beaten to death. Why don't we wait and see what, if anything, happens next.
Quote from: Tommy on July 25, 2008, 11:05:55 AM
Um... excuse me? Doesn't Liz's business model depend on the patients being noncompliant? I mean, a compliant patient would be attending the 12 step programs, going to counseling, staying clean and getting his ever decreasing supply of methadone. Inside of 6 weeks, Liz would have no more patients as they are all "weaned" off of the opoids, were they all compliant. Its the NONCOMPLIANT patients that are profitable... and therein lies my beef wh the entire methadone concept.
People like Liz and her husband make MONEY off of others misery -- and continue the misery. I find that thought to be completely reprehensible.
Paraphrasing someone else's post - you must really hate the funeral industry.
Quote from: ESAD on July 25, 2008, 10:14:11 AM
Quote from: time after time on July 24, 2008, 04:49:42 PM
Same 'ole Panther. Still picking fights and arguing with everyone and anyone about everything and anything just to hear/read himself talk. This wasn't acceptable behavior in the past, I guess now it is. It's either admin gets rid of people or people get fed up with Panther/SILK/Andy and his name calling and attacks. No wonder people don't seem to stick around here for too long and don't continue to post! :(
You're certainly correct about Silk posting just to see/hear himself. Why else would someone who doesn't even live in Illinois be posting here? He's just a preening narcissist. One look at the glamour photo on his Web site is ample proof. If he wasn't such good friends with admin, I suspect the pitpoodle would have been muzzled a long time ago.
As to the "pt dpt" post re: Medicaid. I'm sure there are financial implications, but it's my understanding you also lose control over your clientele. As a private clinic, Liz can decide who she accepts for treatment and who she keeps. If you don't follow clinic rules regarding treatment and behavior, you're gone.
I understand I was incorrect about the pitpoodle and admin being good friends. For that, I apologize to OakParkSpartan.
"It's about what we expected," Sottile said, adding the clinic does plan to sue the city. "Absolutely," he said. "It's in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act."
Why can this clinic itself sue the city? Shouldn't the suit come from the state or federal level? Not phrasing this well - but just seems they are a private business organization and as such, should not be able to file suit for this reason themselves. Also, even if they can -- why would it even be heard if indeed there are are other facilities nearby that people can go to receive this same service/treatment? And -- there are such!
Something just smells about this whole thing. Almost seems like they knew they would ultimately be denied so were already poised to file such a suit. Why don't they find a storefront or building in a nearby community and try to set up shop there? Why Berwyn? Why now?
Tommy,
Liz and Sal don't profit off other peoples misery, they profit off perpetuating nd prolonging that misery.
THAT is the difference between Ms. Buanauro's clinic and a funeral parlor, for instance.
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on July 25, 2008, 11:36:16 AM
"It's about what we expected," Sottile said, adding the clinic does plan to sue the city. "Absolutely," he said. "It's in violation of the Americans with Disabilities Act."
Why can this clinic itself sue the city? Shouldn't the suit come from the state or federal level? Not phrasing this well - but just seems they are a private business organization and as such, should not be able to file suit for this reason themselves. Also, even if they can -- why would it even be heard if indeed there are are other facilities nearby that people can go to receive this same service/treatment? And -- there are such!
Something just smells about this whole thing. Almost seems like they knew they would ultimately be denied so were already poised to file such a suit. Why don't they find a storefront or building in a nearby community and try to set up shop there? Why Berwyn? Why now?
They looked at other locations in some other 'burbs, Lyons and Summit come to mind, before settling on the Grove bldg. They couldn't find a storefront that meets their needs, and they couldn't find an upper level location that meets their needs that also has a elevator (a state or federal requirement, I forget which).
Has any one been inside that elevator recently?
When I worked in that building, the elevator was creepy, dirty and the help phone
was ripped out.
Quote from: ESAD on July 25, 2008, 11:22:54 AM
Quote from: pt dpt on July 25, 2008, 10:55:58 AM
ESAD, unfortunately Liz Buonauro can not control herself long enough to explain her motivations and clinic policies and procedures. Until she shows a little professionalism I will continue to question her judgment. Furthermore, I am in the medical field and hold a doctorate level degree. I have been around enough to know everything is motivated by money. If Medicaid reimbursed at the same level and as quickly as private insurance, Liz would accept the behavior of those patients. Ask any physician in private practice that only accepts certain insurance providers why they do not accept patients on Medicare or Medicaid. The answer will not be noncompliance of Medicare/Medicaid patients, it will be reimbursement.
As I said, there are financial implications. But Liz wants to, and does, run an orderly clinic because she doesn't take or keep all comers. If you accept government money, you can't pick and chose, the result being the image a lot of people have of a methadone clinic. I'm sure you're correct, the GP down the street isn't taking Medicare patients due to reimbursement issues, not because some of the patients might misbehave or not take their meds.
It was clear at the protest rally, at City Hall, and it's clear on this forum, that very few people are really interested in what Liz and Sal have to say. And now there's no point in their answering any questions. In any event, this issue has been beaten to death. Why don't we wait and see what, if anything, happens next.
ESAD, whether Liz's Evanston clinic is orderly is not my concern. My concern lies in what the clients do when they leave the clinic. Statistics show after 5 years, 31% of those receiving treatment from an outpatient methadone clinic still admit to using heroin, 20.9% still admit to using cocaine, 12.7% admit to comitting predatory illegal activities, and only 25% have full time work. Now keep in mind, this research is self report--meaning the research is only as good as the truthfulness of the opiate addict. Furthermore, over the 5 year follow up, many subjects were lost to institutionalization, expiring, or inability to be located. Those subjects lost to institutionalization and death would likely increase statistics on continued abuse and crime. Yes, this study indicates methadone treatment is useful in decreasing heroin use, but that does not mean the methadone clinic should be located next to a peds office, an ice cream shop, a day care center, and families' homes. If this clinic was trying to open in the medical district there would likely be no controversy.
Finally, I was very interested in what Liz and Sal have to say. As I stated earlier, Liz has very little professionalism and control in order to communicate. I was unable to locate any information regarding the Buonauro clinic's outcomes or the training and expertise of the staff. I am sure supporters of the clinic such as yourself now want this issue to be dead--however for those of us who care about the community and our children, this is only the beginning.
O.K., I haven't read all 45 pages of this thread but thought I'd throw this in:
Chicago Treatment and Counseling Centers Inc (CTCC)
5635 West Roosevelt Road
Cicero, IL 60804
Phone: (708) 652-6500
Chicago Treatment and Counseling Centers Inc III (CTCCI)
1849 South Cicero Avenue
Cicero, IL 60804
Phone: (708) 656-9500
2 methadone clinics close by, is there a need for another?
Quote from: SILK on July 25, 2008, 11:04:21 AM
Wht I'd like to know is, where has Pheln been in all of this? He has baely said a word. If anyone (outside of Nona, of course) deserves a pastng on this issue, it's Mr Run and Hide Phelan.
No surprise there, I'm in his ward and he's been AWOL since the election.
Quote from: BPM on July 25, 2008, 02:31:12 PM
O.K., I haven't read all 45 pages of this thread but thought I'd throw this in:
Chicago Treatment and Counseling Centers Inc (CTCC)
5635 West Roosevelt Road
Cicero, IL 60804
Phone: (708) 652-6500
Chicago Treatment and Counseling Centers Inc III (CTCCI)
1849 South Cicero Avenue
Cicero, IL 60804
Phone: (708) 656-9500
2 methadone clinics close by, is there a need for another?
I'm no lawyer (and don't even play on on TV), but that seems like common-sense enough reason for a judge to toss any lawsuit that MethClinic Liz may want to pursue. The Cicero Ave. clinic is within 4 miles, and is easily reached from the very same Metra line. The Roos Rd. Clinic is also within 4 miles and is convenient to I-290, the Blue Line and 2 Roosevelt Rd. bus routes.
Quote from: pt dpt on July 25, 2008, 01:51:29 PM
Quote from: ESAD on July 25, 2008, 11:22:54 AM
Quote from: pt dpt on July 25, 2008, 10:55:58 AM
ESAD, unfortunately Liz Buonauro can not control herself long enough to explain her motivations and clinic policies and procedures. Until she shows a little professionalism I will continue to question her judgment. Furthermore, I am in the medical field and hold a doctorate level degree. I have been around enough to know everything is motivated by money. If Medicaid reimbursed at the same level and as quickly as private insurance, Liz would accept the behavior of those patients. Ask any physician in private practice that only accepts certain insurance providers why they do not accept patients on Medicare or Medicaid. The answer will not be noncompliance of Medicare/Medicaid patients, it will be reimbursement.
As I said, there are financial implications. But Liz wants to, and does, run an orderly clinic because she doesn't take or keep all comers. If you accept government money, you can't pick and chose, the result being the image a lot of people have of a methadone clinic. I'm sure you're correct, the GP down the street isn't taking Medicare patients due to reimbursement issues, not because some of the patients might misbehave or not take their meds.
It was clear at the protest rally, at City Hall, and it's clear on this forum, that very few people are really interested in what Liz and Sal have to say. And now there's no point in their answering any questions. In any event, this issue has been beaten to death. Why don't we wait and see what, if anything, happens next.
ESAD, whether Liz's Evanston clinic is orderly is not my concern. My concern lies in what the clients do when they leave the clinic. Statistics show after 5 years, 31% of those receiving treatment from an outpatient methadone clinic still admit to using heroin, 20.9% still admit to using cocaine, 12.7% admit to comitting predatory illegal activities, and only 25% have full time work. Now keep in mind, this research is self report--meaning the research is only as good as the truthfulness of the opiate addict. Furthermore, over the 5 year follow up, many subjects were lost to institutionalization, expiring, or inability to be located. Those subjects lost to institutionalization and death would likely increase statistics on continued abuse and crime. Yes, this study indicates methadone treatment is useful in decreasing heroin use, but that does not mean the methadone clinic should be located next to a peds office, an ice cream shop, a day care center, and families' homes. If this clinic was trying to open in the medical district there would likely be no controversy.
Finally, I was very interested in what Liz and Sal have to say. As I stated earlier, Liz has very little professionalism and control in order to communicate. I was unable to locate any information regarding the Buonauro clinic's outcomes or the training and expertise of the staff. I am sure supporters of the clinic such as yourself now want this issue to be dead--however for those of us who care about the community and our children, this is only the beginning.
The reason I'd like to drop the matter for a while is everything keeps getting rehashed. The city council voted. That part is over. Only time will tell where it goes from here.
I've never expressed support for the clinic (maybe you came to the board late, but that's made clear in at least one of my posts). What I have done is take issue with how our elected officials have handled the matter, especially the mayor, and with all the rumor and fear mongering, lies and character assassination that's gone on and, for whatever reason, continues.
Quote from: BPM on July 25, 2008, 02:31:12 PM
O.K., I haven't read all 45 pages of this thread but thought I'd throw this in:
Chicago Treatment and Counseling Centers Inc (CTCC)
5635 West Roosevelt Road
Cicero, IL 60804
Phone: (708) 652-6500
Chicago Treatment and Counseling Centers Inc III (CTCCI)
1849 South Cicero Avenue
Cicero, IL 60804
Phone: (708) 656-9500
2 methadone clinics close by, is there a need for another?
Those aren't all that close for heroin addicts already living on the South side of Berwyn now are they?
What people have taken exception to is the bs excuses, justificationsm and insults to their intelligence.
the Gang of Four has told us they did their due diligence and voted yay twice. If that's the case, then what has changd now? Nothing except a real fear of losing votes. Unless of course their due dilgence didn't encompass canvassing public opinion, in which case they should be taken to task for incompetence.
Simly put, NONE of their excuses fly. There is NO out, and everyone knows it. Now maybe the mayor did utilize this issue for his political gain, but the fact is, if the methadone fur didn't vote yay, the mayor would not have been in such a position. We're losing the forest for the trees. The fact that the mayor may have utilized the opportunity for his olitical gain doesn't vitiate the idiotic YAY votes (twice), nor does it mke those votes any less appalling.
Quote from: SILK on July 25, 2008, 03:04:04 PM
What people have taken exception to is the bs excuses, justificationsm and insults to their intelligence.
the Gang of Four has told us they did their due diligence and voted yay twice. If that's the case, then what has changd now? Nothing except a real fear of losing votes. Unless of course their due dilgence didn't encompass canvassing public opinion, in which case they should be taken to task for incompetence.
Simly put, NONE of their excuses fly. There is NO out, and everyone knows it. Now maybe the mayor did utilize this issue for his political gain, but the fact is, if the methadone fur didn't vote yay, the mayor would not have been in such a position. We're losing the forest for the trees. The fact that the mayor may have utilized the opportunity for his olitical gain doesn't vitiate the idiotic YAY votes (twice), nor does it mke those votes any less appalling.
...and considering the vitriol in City Hall aimed at him [OC], I can hardly blame him.
I think the thing that amazes me most is the disbelief in a POLITICIAN changing his/her mind to better their chance at getting elected. It happens all the time people not just here in shitsville USA. Get over it ,vote for who you are going to vote for and get on with your lives already.
initially, I wasn't too thrilled with the forum, but after seeing the turnout and its effect, I changed my mind. I wish the mayor had not engaged in some verbal jousting wth nona at the end, but to point the finger t OC when the real issue s the four YAY votes is one of the most blatant and nonsensical attempts at misdrection I have ever seen.
Quote from: Boris on July 25, 2008, 02:40:17 PM
Quote from: BPM on July 25, 2008, 02:31:12 PM
O.K., I haven't read all 45 pages of this thread but thought I'd throw this in:
Chicago Treatment and Counseling Centers Inc (CTCC)
5635 West Roosevelt Road
Cicero, IL 60804
Phone: (708) 652-6500
Chicago Treatment and Counseling Centers Inc III (CTCCI)
1849 South Cicero Avenue
Cicero, IL 60804
Phone: (708) 656-9500
2 methadone clinics close by, is there a need for another?
I'm no lawyer (and don't even play on on TV), but that seems like common-sense enough reason for a judge to toss any lawsuit that MethClinic Liz may want to pursue. The Cicero Ave. clinic is within 4 miles, and is easily reached from the very same Metra line. The Roos Rd. Clinic is also within 4 miles and is convenient to I-290, the Blue Line and 2 Roosevelt Rd. bus routes.
Exactly what I was thinking & posted similar thought earlier. Still say something is just odd about the alleged determination to set up shop in Berwyn.
Quote from: frank white on July 25, 2008, 03:12:46 PM
I think the thing that amazes me most is the disbelief in a POLITICIAN changing his/her mind to better their chance at getting elected. It happens all the time people not just here in shitsville USA. Get over it ,vote for who you are going to vote for and get on with your lives already.
I was also thinking that since the villagers did come out with pitchforks and torches on this issue -- that might have more inspired them to change their vote than any thoughts of re-election. After all, we know where they live...
LL,
that's just it, though. Liz Buonauro claims there is a "need" for it in berwyn, yet has offered absolutely no evidence whatsoever to substantiate her claim. Now there may not be any suporting data availble, but that begets the following question-how then did Liz draw such a conclusion?
Quote from: SILK on July 25, 2008, 03:33:31 PM
LL,
that's just it, though. Liz Buonauro claims there is a "need" for it in berwyn, yet has offered absolutely no evidence whatsoever to substantiate her claim. Now there may not be any suporting data availble, but that begets the following question-how then did Liz draw such a conclusion?
I believe the "need" is her own. Doesn't she live a block or two from the clinic she proposed? Beats driving to Evanston everyday.
BPM and I had the same idea by posting the address of 2 other treatment areas in the area only (in my case) to be insulted by ESAD who "thanked" me for posting useless information. The cyberbullying that goes on this threat has discouraged many from continuing to post. That's really too bad.
and people say I'M the reason many don't post here???? ??? ???
Just a thought: Since there are other facilities near-enough to Berwyn for people to receive methadone treatment, I wonder whether the Buonauro folks might consider taking out the methadone component and just offering drug and alcohol addiction counseling? They seem to claim success in the area of counseling so what would the big deal be about just offering that and leaving methadone dispensing to others?
If so, would that make their clinic more acceptable in the DD...or not?
Good question, Linda.
LL...You have to be deep into the pants of state government
to get those counseling contracts for DUI, etc. silk can explain
how that system works in the food chain for those bottom
dwellers that feed upon it. You would end up with the same
type of undesirable coming in.
Linda,
Excuse the sycophant bottom dweller and chronic imbiber. Its Saturday night and he's had a few too many.
The ONLY govt mandated counseling/treatment "program" in Cook County, at least as it relates to the court system, is that of the Central States Institute of Addiction, which handles court mandated alcohol assessments for defendants seeking driving permits while suspended/revoked for DUI. Said assessment is also mandatory before sentence will be imposed in a DUI case.
CSI is run by Catholic Charities, which has deep political ties to, you guessed it .............. The Democratic Party of Chicago. Do a little research into who has a vested economic interest in CSI, and you'll see. That's Democratic Party of Chicago, as in Democratic Citizens of Berwyn.
Poor Bear doesn't even know its his own people that are profitting. ;D
Nor does he know that several with ties to his OWN group have required the services of CSI. :D
Keep talking Bear. Won't be long before you get a phone call to shut the hell up. ;D
Still waiting to find out who the drunkard "prosecutor friend" of mine is. Then again, most people can spot bullshit when they see it.
Personally Linda, I would object to a drug/alcohol treatment center also in the DD.
The DD and the closeness of a beautiful residential area need to grown. In my opinion
treatment centers of this kind will only bring the neighborhood down.
Regardless of Silks insults to Bear (I thought a warning was issued on this kind of behavior?)
I agree with Bear. Silk would you like a drug/Alcohol treatment center 1 block from your family
in sunny Indiana? I would fight this kind of movement in my new neighborhood of Orland Park.
Enough Andy, let's all pretend Andy is 100% right . All the Democrats in America are no good, and
Andy is perfect. O.K.? Now will you go away, or at least shut the F#%@k up!
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 27, 2008, 10:12:35 AM
Personally Linda, I would object to a drug/alcohol treatment center also in the DD.
The DD and the closeness of a beautiful residential area need to grown. In my opinion
treatment centers of this kind will only bring the neighborhood down.
Regardless of Silks insults to Bear (I thought a warning was issued on this kind of behavior?)
I agree with Bear. Silk would you like a drug/Alcohol treatment center 1 block from your family
in sunny Indiana? I would fight this kind of movement in my new neighborhood of Orland Park.
Enough Andy, let's all pretend Andy is 100% right . All the Democrats in America are no good, and
Andy is perfect. O.K.? Now will you go away, or at least shut the F#%@k up!
bp,
now
who needs help with anger management?
can you say these words? the man i look up to, the great bob lovero, screwed up, big time.
inquiring minds want to know.
mike
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 27, 2008, 10:12:35 AM
Personally Linda, I would object to a drug/alcohol treatment center also in the DD.
The DD and the closeness of a beautiful residential area need to grown. In my opinion
treatment centers of this kind will only bring the neighborhood down.
Regardless of Silks insults to Bear (I thought a warning was issued on this kind of behavior?)
I agree with Bear. Silk would you like a drug/Alcohol treatment center 1 block from your family
in sunny Indiana? I would fight this kind of movement in my new neighborhood of Orland Park.
Enough Andy, let's all pretend Andy is 100% right . All the Democrats in America are no good, and
Andy is perfect. O.K.? Now will you go away, or at least shut the F#%@k up!
What do you agree with Bear on, Patsy? You don't have a clue.
A DUI assesment center (that which Bear was speaking of), where individuals go for alcohol evaluations, for the most part
DOES NOT cater to or service alcoholics or substance abusers. Only a small percentage of people charged with a DUI are classified as dependent. And they're
ALL located in the suburban district courthouses or at 50 West Washington. There are only six locations in all of Cook County.
As for DUI counseling centers, they're a dime a dozen. No special connections to open one. Nor is any govt agency mandatorily funneling business to any of these centers. And once again, a large percentage of people who attend ARE NOT alcoholics. Rather, the counseling is part of a court sentence, and the offender gets to pick and choose which counseling center he or she will go to, as long as its approved.
Furthermore, there is quite a difference between alcoholics and heroin addicts. If you can't see the difference, I won't bother explaining.
Are you intimating that my analysis of the Central States Institute for Addiction, and govt mandated substance abuse counseling, is incorrect? What about it is incorrect? Or rather yet, what about the nonsense that Bear spews IS correct?
You post the type of garbage you do, and then wonder why people take you to task for it. Lumping all substance abusers together is, well,....I will not even bother.
Lastly, tell me where I'm incorrect with respect to the Democratic ties with Catholic Charities? You don't have the foggiest idea, yet you keep yapping....... Must be frustrating, hence the shut the f#$@k up. Nice Patsy!
Quote from: k6s2zvfw on July 27, 2008, 10:21:55 AM
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 27, 2008, 10:12:35 AM
Personally Linda, I would object to a drug/alcohol treatment center also in the DD.
The DD and the closeness of a beautiful residential area need to grown. In my opinion
treatment centers of this kind will only bring the neighborhood down.
Regardless of Silks insults to Bear (I thought a warning was issued on this kind of behavior?)
I agree with Bear. Silk would you like a drug/Alcohol treatment center 1 block from your family
in sunny Indiana? I would fight this kind of movement in my new neighborhood of Orland Park.
Enough Andy, let's all pretend Andy is 100% right . All the Democrats in America are no good, and
Andy is perfect. O.K.? Now will you go away, or at least shut the F#%@k up!
bp,
now who needs help with anger management?
can you say these words? the man i look up to, the great bob lovero, screwed up, big time.
inquiring minds want to know.
mike
Mike,
The problem is, there is NO OUT.
They keep looking for a way to talk themselves out of it, and instead they talk themsleves into a corner.
The more they talk, the worse it gets.
That's the frustrating part for them.
That's why you don't see any factual posts of substance from them.
That's why you see repeated efforts at misdirection.
Slickman, you mistook my reply as anger, actually it is total frustration.
I can say, in answer to your inquiring minds want to know question, yes in my
opinion Bobby Lovero made a mistake, he admitted it, by saying he thought with
his legal part of his brain and NOT his heart. He was man enough to admit he is human
and made a wrong decision. What else do you want, his Blood?
Come on now Mr. Slickman, in all your smart business decisions, have you ever been
man enough to admit a mistake? Silly question, probably NOT.
Here's where the snowjob begins, Mike.
If Bobby HAD indeed made a mistake, he wouldn't have made the SAME mistake TWICE. Nor would he have replied to his constituents, pre-forum, that he had done his due diligence. Due diligence means taking your constituents wishes into consideration. He had TWO chances to do so, four months apart. And the end result is, he voted the same way, TWICE.
This wan't a mistake at all. It was political Russian roulette, and Bobby lost, big time.
Only when he realized how many votes it would cost him did he reverse himself.
I'll give Bobby props for the way he handled himself at the forum. Much better than the other two. Nonetheless, mistake it was NOT. Any attempt to characterize it as such now is disingenious and spin doctoring at its finest.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 27, 2008, 10:35:42 AM
Slickman, you mistook my reply as anger, actually it is total frustration.
Yes Patsy, we know. We know. :D
Quote from: SILK on July 27, 2008, 10:28:34 AM
The more they talk, the worse it gets.
That's the frustrating part for them.
That's why you don't see any factual posts of substance from them.
That's why you see repeated efforts at misdirection.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 27, 2008, 10:35:42 AM
Slickman, you mistook my reply as anger, actually it is total frustration.
I can say, in answer to your inquiring minds want to know question, yes in my
opinion Bobby Lovero made a mistake, he admitted it, by saying he thought with
his legal part of his brain and NOT his heart. He was man enough to admit he is human
and made a wrong decision. What else do you want, his Blood?
Come on now Mr. Slickman, in all your smart business decisions, have you ever been
man enough to admit a mistake? Silly question, probably NOT.
thank you
and, yes, i'm the first person to admit the error's of my way, it's called character.
mike, and it's sli
nkman
Oh, so sorry for the miss spelling of your last name, I will try to remember it is
Mr. Slinkman, not SLICKman.
You guys are so boring.
Still going ?
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 27, 2008, 10:35:42 AM
yes in my opinion Bobby Lovero made a mistake, he admitted it, by saying he thought with
his legal part of his brain and NOT his heart. He was man enough to admit he is human
and made a wrong decision.
You seem to disagree with more and more of his decisions, yet you still follow like a little puppy.
No, he didn't admit he is human, he admitted he's CLUELESS.
I don't think the changing of their minds itself is a big deal, but what it has illustrated is:
a) these folks don't have the courage to do what they believe is right (save the city $$$)"The residents have been heard, and I will vote against the clinic," 1st Ward Alderman Nona Chapman said. "Even though it may incur thousands of dollars in legal fees, it will be done."She doesn't come across as all too happy about this, having to remind the citizens of the cost..("I told you so!").
and
b) they are out of touch with the residents they represent"My legal brain outweighed my aldermanic heart and led to a vote that clearly did not (match) the views of the rest of the city," Lovero said.'Nuff said...heart in the right place,
head in the clouds.So what do they do? What they believe is right, or cow to a few hundred citizens?
They showed ZERO LEADERSHIP.
Limp. Wristed.
Frank, your right this is not only boring but arguing with dumb and dumber (silk and ilk) is
according to most of the people on this board a waste of time. Thanks to all of
you who PM'd me, I will take your advice. We are dealing with the insane here.
ciao!
Ta Ta!!!
Quote from: Bear on July 26, 2008, 10:57:15 PM
LL...You have to be deep into the pants of state government
to get those counseling contracts for DUI, etc. silk can explain
how that system works in the food chain for those bottom
dwellers that feed upon it. You would end up with the same
type of undesirable coming in.
Huh?
Regardless, on second thought I realized that it would likely be only the dispensing of methadone that would bring profits to this clinic. I was thinking in terms of services such as the Fillmore Center offered. Their substance abuse counseling services does not seem to have negatively affected the DD over the years. I also realized that there are many low or no cost drug/alcohol abuse services available (12-step programs...) in our area so the Buonauro group might not attract clients for just those same services.
Unless they've already taken some big bucks from investors to help fund the start up of this clinic, I just don't see why they'd bother filing a lawsuiit. And, even so -- if they took investors money before obtaining actual buisness license -- whose problem would that be?
Still would like to know how they themselves could file a suit claiming violaition of the ADA? Anyone?
LL: I also keep wondering about the using the ADA as a basis of their lawsuit. Wouldn't the clients be covered by the ADA, not the clinic in and of itself?
Can someone give some insight. Thanks.
My understanding is that the clinic itself may not have standing to sue.
Furthermore, I'm not sure that prospective clients would be succesful either. As I interpret the ADA, liability would arise if a local ordinance made a service inaccessible. In this instance, methadone treatment isn't being made inaccessible. The methadone client can go to other nearby clinics. Contrast that with a scenario where wheelchair accessibility is not provided for in a central business district.
I believe that in this jurisdiction: U.S. Court of Appeals, 7th Circuit (for purposes of applying ADA) the clinic would have standing to sue in order to open its doors, but would not have standing to sue, under ADA for its lost profits/compensatory damages. The theory (by which the clinic gains standing under the ADA) is colloquially known as "Associational Standing."
see: Discovery House, Inc. v. Consolidated City of Indianapolis, 319 F.3d 277 (7th Cir. 2003)
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 27, 2008, 01:02:22 PM
arguing with dumb and dumber (silk and ilk) is
according to most of the people on this board a waste of time. Thanks to all of
you who PM'd me, I will take your advice.
Those who PM'd you are doing so for the good of your party, as you cannot argue a point to save your life, much less construct a coherent sentence with spelling and grammar capabilities greater than that of a 3rd grader.
You cannot fight the TRUTH, hence why you quit after my previous post.
Have a nice day!
You have also insulted me for the last time. I find your ignorance and total
stupidity as a sad way to go through life. I pity you.
We worked hard and gave up a lot to make sure our children had the education we were
not able to obtain from our parents. We are proud of what they have all accomplished in life.
At least, I can hold up my head. My education, spelling, sentence structure and grammer capabilities
may not meet your standards, but I have taught my children something you will never understand.
Honesty, and to always have the courage of their convictions, and to never look down on those less
fortunate then they.
Now, please do not respond to me again, on this board, in person or through a private email.
P.S. Thank God you have not produced children of your own, I can't imagine your parenting skills.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 27, 2008, 07:09:53 PM
You have also insulted me for the last time. I find your ignorance and total
stupidity as a sad way to go through life. I pity you.
YOU insulted ME for the last time before that...
"arguing with dumb and dumber (silk and ilk) ..."You can dish it out, but cannot take it, I see.
Apparently you didn't get the message from the Brian requesting that the personal insults STOP.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 27, 2008, 07:09:53 PM
You have also insulted me for the last time. I find your ignorance and total
stupidity as a sad way to go through life. I pity you.
We worked hard and gave up a lot to make sure our children had the education we were
not able to obtain from our parents. We are proud of what they have all accomplished in life.
At least, I can hold up my head. My education, spelling, sentence structure and grammer capabilities
may not meet your standards, but I have taught my children something you will never understand.
Honesty, and to always have the courage of their convictions, and to never look down on those less
fortunate then they.
Now, please do not respond to me again, on this board, in person or through a private email.
P.S. Thank God you have not produced children of your own, I can't imagine your parenting skills.
Honesty Patsy?
Honesty?
YOU are talking about honesty?
:D :D :D :D
Ms. "we don't contribute to the dcobrdo, well maybe my hubby does but I can't remember, and oh what the hell yeah I support Lovero" Berwyn Patsy????
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 27, 2008, 07:09:53 PM
Honesty, and to always have the courage of their convictions, and to never look down on those less
fortunate then they.
Speak for yourself calling me dumb and dumber.
I NEVER look down on anyone, and am grateful for every penny I can scrounge, the home I have, and the city I LIVE IN.
ps. When I say you cannot fight the truth, I'm talking about my points, not your intelligence.
No bons, she called ME dumb, and YOU dumber. :D ;D :D
I don't get offended though. In fact, I find it quite amusing. Patsy, bear, bennifer, esad, and a host of other assorted assclowns questioning my intellect. As one person who pm'ed me said, the "unqualified" trying to verbally spar with Silkster. LOL!!!!
Patsy, I have no doubt about the sacrifices you made to raise your children, as did my parents, but to come on here and wax poetic about honesty after your tet a tet with apat concerning your political contributions/affiliations is not only mind boggling, but insulting. THAT is what's truly offensive.
Quote from: eno on July 27, 2008, 05:21:57 PM
I believe that in this jurisdiction: U.S. Court of Appeals, 7th Circuit (for purposes of applying ADA) the clinic would have standing to sue in order to open its doors, but would not have standing to sue, under ADA for its lost profits/compensatory damages. The theory (by which the clinic gains standing under the ADA) is colloquially known as "Associational Standing."
see: Discovery House, Inc. v. Consolidated City of Indianapolis, 319 F.3d 277 (7th Cir. 2003)
So the remedy in the first instance would be injunctive relief? And wouldn't that make the compensatory damages issue moot? Or at least of little significance?
Do you have any other case law from the remaining circuits?
Quote from: Bonster on July 27, 2008, 06:50:59 PM
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on July 27, 2008, 01:02:22 PM
arguing with dumb and dumber (silk and ilk) is
according to most of the people on this board a waste of time. Thanks to all of
you who PM'd me, I will take your advice.
Those who PM'd you are doing so for the good of your party, as you cannot argue a point to save your life, much less construct a coherent sentence with spelling and grammar capabilities greater than that of a 3rd grader.
You cannot fight the TRUTH, hence why you quit after my previous post.
Have a nice day!
What part of
"Knock off with the personal attacks" do you people not understand?
Not everyone is here to argue incessantly.
Next one is out of here. 8:13PM Sunday.
the best part of all this, is that it will be a major campaign issue, maybe even # 1.
the people will, and always have , the last say.
mike
Quote from: ESAD on July 25, 2008, 11:22:54 AM
Quote from: pt dpt on July 25, 2008, 10:55:58 AM
ESAD, unfortunately Liz Buonauro can not control herself long enough to explain her motivations and clinic policies and procedures. Until she shows a little professionalism I will continue to question her judgment. Furthermore, I am in the medical field and hold a doctorate level degree. I have been around enough to know everything is motivated by money. If Medicaid reimbursed at the same level and as quickly as private insurance, Liz would accept the behavior of those patients. Ask any physician in private practice that only accepts certain insurance providers why they do not accept patients on Medicare or Medicaid. The answer will not be noncompliance of Medicare/Medicaid patients, it will be reimbursement.
As I said, there are financial implications. But Liz wants to, and does, run an orderly clinic because she doesn't take or keep all comers. If you accept government money, you can't pick and chose, the result being the image a lot of people have of a methadone clinic. I'm sure you're correct, the GP down the street isn't taking Medicare patients due to reimbursement issues, not because some of the patients might misbehave or not take their meds.
It was clear at the protest rally, at City Hall, and it's clear on this forum, that very few people are really interested in what Liz and Sal have to say. And now there's no point in their answering any questions. In any event, this issue has been beaten to death. Why don't we wait and see what, if anything, happens next.
I really was interested in hearing success stories of patients who were treated at the BBC in Evanston, the ones who were addicted to an illegal substance, treated with methadone and are now free to live a full life without a substance abuse problem. Liz had an audience and a chance to convince that same audience her clinic was not so bad, instead she was defensive and that conviced me all the more we were in that parking lot for all the right reasons.
I also know there were others like me who hoped Liz would present facts regarding treatment, so don't assume we weren't interested in what Liz or Sal had to say.
I believe in the remaining time until the election the OC will give his opponents much bigger fish with which to fry him on. The Clerk scandal is still looming kiddies.
Frank,
I highly doubt OC will give anyone any bigger fish to fry than the whale the Methadone Quartet gave OC.
Impossible.
But I'm just CURIOUS, what's your solution?
Bring back the DCOBRDO?
You sure are handy slinging arrows at OC, but never offer an alternative or solution.
But if I were you, I would do the same exact thing. Try to MOVE ON (that's sort of like MOVE BERWYN FORWARD, isn't it?) from the present debacle, present it to the public as a blip on the radar screen not worthy of discussion, and throw out vague innuendo regarding the city clerk in order to misdirect. If I didn't know any better, I would swear you were part of the old guard.
Berwyn sure is in a pickle isn't it? Absolutely no one good to choose from.
Quote from: SILK on July 27, 2008, 09:45:36 PM
Frank,
I highly doubt OC will give anyone any bigger fish to fry than the whale the Methadone Quartet gave OC.
Impossible.
But I'm just CURIOUS, what's your solution?
Bring back the DCOBRDO?
You sure are handy slinging arrows at OC, but never offer an alternative or solution.
But if I were you, I would do the same exact thing. Try to MOVE ON (that's sort of like MOVE BERWYN FORWARD, isn't it?) from the present debacle, present it to the public as a blip on the radar screen not worthy of discussion, and throw out vague innuendo regarding the city clerk in order to misdirect. If I didn't know any better, I would swear you were part of the old guard.
So its all been decided in advance. Why bother to vote?
what?
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 12:38:17 AM
what?
Your posts hope to eliminate any other party's candidate, and any one who might contemplate running for office. So, why would a person bother to run.
No.
My post simply asked Frank what his solution would be.
IMO, the more the merrier.
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 12:46:47 AM
No.
My post simply asked Frank what his solution would be.
IMO, the more the merrier.
Not really, you do not want dems or repubs and no one seems to measure up to your standards. The more the merrier is not very realistic.
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 12:46:47 AM
No.
My post simply asked Frank what his solution would be.
IMO, the more the merrier.
But, you offer no solutions either. Except, to send everyone to Plainfield?
No, I don't want dcobrdo dems.
And I don't want Republican candidates so far out of touch with the mainstream.
I know I'll never get anything more than the same ole same ole from the Berwyn Demsm so give me a viable republican candidate and I'll back him/her 100 percent
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 01:00:19 AM
No, I don't want dcobrdo dems.
And I don't want Republican candidates so far out of touch with the mainstream.
I know I'll never get anything more than the same ole same ole from the Berwyn Demsm so give me a viable republican candidate and I'll back him/her 100 percent
Can you vote in Berwyn? So, you are then a Republican right?
rizzo,
sending all the old guard to Plainfield would effectively eliminate most of the gvernment for the few machine style mentality which permeates throughout Berwyn. Step 1, of many, in the right rection.
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 01:05:05 AM
rizzo,
sending all the old guard to Plainfield would effectively eliminate most of the gvernment for the few machine style mentality which permeates throughout Berwyn. Step 1, of many, in the right rection.
By old guard you mean just old elected officials, or all who may have supported them? Can you vote in Berwyn for a local election? How would you support a correct republican candidate?
I do not have all of the answeres or better yet even some of the answers to fix what is broken here. Unlike all of the pundits hear the move forward and let's build a better Berwyn slogans just aren't going to cut it. I sling arrows at OC and the current admin because they are there NOW not a decade ago or one year in the future. Offering solutions here is akin to pissing into the wind which I will let you keep doing.
If by old guard you mean I've been around a while sure that is me. I will leave the name calling and arguing back and forth to you guys and I will continue to post what I feel people should here or what I think.
As far as the methadone scandal bringing down Bobby or the Dems I just don't see it. You are putting one too many eggs in that basket and now you are beginning to sound like the purple party faithful.
Quote from: frank white on July 28, 2008, 06:30:28 AM
As far as the methadone scandal bringing down Bobby or the Dems I just don't see it. You are putting one too many eggs in that basket and now you are beginning to sound like the purple party faithful.
yes, frank, i am a "purple party faithful"
fact: if bobby lovero
was mayor, we would have a mathadone clinic right in our downtown depot district.
fact: bobby lovero cast his committeman votes for
todd strogero'connor may not be perfect, but he sure as hell beat's the alternative.
mike
frank,
Nothing wrong with critizing OC, as long as its not really an endorsement of Lovero in disguise. You wouldn't be engaging in any of that, now would you Frank? ;)
Quote from: k6s2zvfw on July 28, 2008, 06:50:03 AM
fact: bobby lovero cast his committeman votes for todd stroger
And, Mike O'Connor endorsed Todd Stroger. ::)
Mike, I highly doubt that voters in Berwyn are going to care that Lovero cast a vote for Stroger or that Mike O'Connor endorsed Stroger. You may care, but the average Berwyn voter does not.
Ted
Quote from: frank white on July 28, 2008, 06:30:28 AM
If by old guard you mean I've been around a while sure that is me.
Please don't insult the rest of the old time Berwynites in that manner. Old guard means old guard. Thanks for identifying yourself as such. ;)
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 01:08:51 AM
By old guard you mean just old elected officials, or all who may have supported them?
ALL of them. The whole kit and caboodle.
Unless you
completely eradicate that mindset, Berwyn will always be stuck in the mud.
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 01:05:05 AM
rizzo,
sending all the old guard to Plainfield would effectively eliminate most of the gvernment for the few machine style mentality which permeates throughout Berwyn. Step 1, of many, in the right rection.
By old guard you mean just old elected officials, or all who may have supported them? Can you vote in Berwyn for a local election? How would you support a correct republican candidate?
There are NO correct Republican candidates, despite the fact that there are some qualified Repubs in town.
Can I vote? Maybe.
How would I support a candidate? Probably the same way Mr. Slinkman does, for a start. ;)
p.s. Now give me the name of a viable candidate, and I'll support him/her, irrespective of party affiliation.
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 07:07:12 AM
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 01:05:05 AM
rizzo,
sending all the old guard to Plainfield would effectively eliminate most of the gvernment for the few machine style mentality which permeates throughout Berwyn. Step 1, of many, in the right rection.
By old guard you mean just old elected officials, or all who may have supported them? Can you vote in Berwyn for a local election? How would you support a correct republican candidate?
There are NO correct Republican candidates, despite the fact that there are some qualified Repubs in town.
Can I vote? Maybe.
How would I support a candidate? Probably the same way Mr. Slinkman does, for a start. ;)
p.s. Now give me the name of a viable candidate, and I'll support him/her, irrespective of party affiliation.
I submit that ...
You are a republican.
That candidate support may mean, opening a wallet and buying the campaign. The best candidate would be Republican, right.
You cannot vote in Berwyn, much like Mr Slinkman but, may have influence over some votes.
The votes are possibly relatives still residing here.
You seem to have an unwavering distain for "machine style" politics on one hand, while the other hand would "support" a great republican candidate for Berwyn mayor.
That would be a "republican machine" candidate then right?
or not.
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 07:00:09 AM
Quote from: frank white on July 28, 2008, 06:30:28 AM
If by old guard you mean I've been around a while sure that is me.
Please don't insult the rest of the old time Berwynites in that manner. Old guard means old guard. Thanks for identifying yourself as such. ;)
Silk,
My intent is not to insult anybody. Nor, do I wish to identify my myself with the OG or any Guard. You are leaping to conclusions. Thanks for confirming your republican leanings.
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 07:41:37 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 07:07:12 AM
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 01:08:51 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 01:05:05 AM
rizzo,
sending all the old guard to Plainfield would effectively eliminate most of the gvernment for the few machine style mentality which permeates throughout Berwyn. Step 1, of many, in the right rection.
By old guard you mean just old elected officials, or all who may have supported them? Can you vote in Berwyn for a local election? How would you support a correct republican candidate?
There are NO correct Republican candidates, despite the fact that there are some qualified Repubs in town.
Can I vote? Maybe.
How would I support a candidate? Probably the same way Mr. Slinkman does, for a start. ;)
p.s. Now give me the name of a viable candidate, and I'll support him/her, irrespective of party affiliation.
I submit that ...
You are a republican.
That candidate support may mean, opening a wallet and buying the campaign. The best candidate would be Republican, right.
You cannot vote in Berwyn, much like Mr Slinkman but, may have influence over some votes.
The votes are possibly relatives still residing here.
You seem to have an unwavering distain for "machine style" politics on one hand, while the other hand would "support" a great republican candidate for Berwyn mayor.
That would be a "republican machine" candidate then right?
or not.
No.
You seem to be grasping at straws.
I NEVER said I was a Republican. In fact, along the political spectrum I probably fall into the Libertarian category. (but hey, it sounds good)
What I DID say is that I would support a VIABLE Republican candidate. (but what difference does it make, people have painted me an IVB supporter as well? :D)
I have an EQUAL amount of disdain for machine style politicians, be they red or blue. I despise the process and the mindset, not the parties. Why is that so hard for you to comprehend?
Now, where is your viable Berwyn mayoral candidate?
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 07:46:43 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 07:00:09 AM
Quote from: frank white on July 28, 2008, 06:30:28 AM
If by old guard you mean I've been around a while sure that is me.
Please don't insult the rest of the old time Berwynites in that manner. Old guard means old guard. Thanks for identifying yourself as such. ;)
Silk,
My intent is not to insult anybody. Nor, do I wish to identify my myself with the OG or any Guard. You are leaping to conclusions. Thanks for confirming your republican leanings.
That post was directed to frank white, not yourself. Read above.
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 07:41:37 AM
I submit that ...
You are a republican.
Wait ... it can't be ... I thought the old guard had painted me PURPLE?
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 07:02:17 AM
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 01:08:51 AM
By old guard you mean just old elected officials, or all who may have supported them?
ALL of them. The whole kit and caboodle.
Unless you completely eradicate that mindset, Berwyn will always be stuck in the mud.
"Completly eradicate a mindset" so much for freedom of thought and expression, eh. How does one determine anothers mindset? You must be gifted with special abilities.
Eradicate is quite a violent term when directed at people. You must have been deeply hurt by democratic "machine style" politics. or not.
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 07:49:29 AM
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 07:46:43 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 07:00:09 AM
Quote from: frank white on July 28, 2008, 06:30:28 AM
If by old guard you mean I've been around a while sure that is me.
Please don't insult the rest of the old time Berwynites in that manner. Old guard means old guard. Thanks for identifying yourself as such. ;)
Silk,
My intent is not to insult anybody. Nor, do I wish to identify my myself with the OG or any Guard. You are leaping to conclusions. Thanks for confirming your republican leanings.
That post was directed to frank white, not yourself. Read above.
Okay then...
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 07:51:20 AM
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 07:41:37 AM
I submit that ...
You are a republican.
Wait ... it can't be ... I thought the old guard had painted me PURPLE?
I would not know how they had painted you. But, you say that you are a libertarian.
Thanks for answering my inquiries. It's been interesting.
You have a point Rizzo. Freedom of thought and expression is constitutionally protected. You can be free to support machine style politics, just as your neighbor can be free to support segregation, I guess.
I'm just not sure what you, or others, find appealing in being led around by nose by the usual cast of characters, and having the taxpayer perpetually foot the bill.
I've NEVER been personally affected by machine style politics. Thankfully, I've usually been able to extricate myself from those type of positions. I do, however, find it insulting when the few expect to govern at the expense of many, and when those few feel a sense of entitlement (without merit).
p.s. Eradicate is exactly what I meant. No more "violent" than what machine style politicians have done to this, and many other, municipalities.
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 08:08:09 AM
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 07:51:20 AM
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 07:41:37 AM
I submit that ...
You are a republican.
Wait ... it can't be ... I thought the old guard had painted me PURPLE?
I would not know how they had painted you. But, you say that you are a libertarian.
Thanks for answering my inquiries. It's been interesting.
I said that's probably where I fall along the political spectrum. I didn't say I was a Libertarian.
Quote from: Terri on July 27, 2008, 09:36:20 PM
I really was interested in hearing success stories of patients who were treated at the BBC in Evanston, the ones who were addicted to an illegal substance, treated with methadone and are now free to live a full life without a substance abuse problem. Liz had an audience and a chance to convince that same audience her clinic was not so bad, instead she was defensive and that conviced me all the more we were in that parking lot for all the right reasons.
I also know there were others like me who hoped Liz would present facts regarding treatment, so don't assume we weren't interested in what Liz or Sal had to say.
True! And, some still are interested in what they may have to say about the track record of their methadone treatment services (and other services, for that matter) -- and their "business plan". Instead, the City allegedly received the threat of a lawsuit. If they do sue, win & set up shop here after all -- is that how it is going to go from then on? Any real problems with the business or their clients -- and they cry "fowl", throw down the ADA card -- and the City has to back off and/or look the other way?
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 08:09:35 AM
You have a point Rizzo. Freedom of thought and expression is constitutionally protected. You can be free to support machine style politics, just as your neighbor can be free to support segregation, I guess.
I'm just not sure what you, or others, find appealing in being led around by nose by the usual cast of characters, and having the taxpayer perpetually foot the bill.
I've NEVER been personally affected by machine style politics. Thankfully, I've usually been able to extricate myself from those type of positions. I do, however, find it insulting when the few expect to govern at the expense of many, and when those few feel a sense of entitlement (without merit).
p.s. Eradicate is exactly what I meant. No more "violent" than what machine style politicians have done to this, and many other, municipalities.
Ah, but I did not support "machine style" anything in my recent inquiries. Nice segregation analogy, trying to incite, eh. Thanks for answering my humble questions.
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 08:09:35 AM
You have a point Rizzo. Freedom of thought and expression is constitutionally protected. You can be free to support machine style politics, just as your neighbor can be free to support segregation, I guess.
I'm just not sure what you, or others, find appealing in being led around by nose by the usual cast of characters, and having the taxpayer perpetually foot the bill.
p.s. Eradicate is exactly what I meant. No more "violent" than what machine style politicians have done to this, and many other, municipalities.
Your assumption is flawed. You would gladly have a Viable candidate (republican/ libertarian) lead the citizens by the nose, right.
You wish me to accept the idea that the root of all evil, the destructor of all cities is the fault of the demon like "machine style" politics.
I shall give you some thought
Thanks
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 09:06:52 AM
Your assumption is flawed.
How so?
QuoteYou would gladly have a Viable candidate (republican/ libertarian) lead the citizens by the nose, right.
I don't want ANYONE leading ANYONE else by the nose.
And I don't have any special affinity for any particular party. I simply exclude the Berwyn Dems because its always the same old same old with them.
QuoteYou wish me to accept the idea that the root of all evil, the destructor of all cities is the fault of the demon like "machine style" politics.
If it makes you feel better.
QuoteI shall give you some thought
I'm chomping at the bit waiting for your reply. :D
Ciao!
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on July 28, 2008, 08:11:48 AM
Quote from: Terri on July 27, 2008, 09:36:20 PM
If they do sue, win & set up shop here after all
Where would they set up shop? The owner of the location in the DD does not have to keep that office vacant during the pending threat of litigation, does he? Is he somehow caught up in this as a 3rd party?
What happened to the clinic thread?
Any news on whether a lawsuit has been filed yet. Or not?
(Note: I'm not channeling Mark here. really.) offtopic
Quote from: SILK on July 28, 2008, 05:29:34 PM
Quote from: Rizzo on July 28, 2008, 09:06:52 AM
Your assumption is flawed.
How so?
QuoteYou would gladly have a Viable candidate (republican/ libertarian) lead the citizens by the nose, right.
I don't want ANYONE leading ANYONE else by the nose.
And I don't have any special affinity for any particular party. I simply exclude the Berwyn Dems because its always the same old same old with them.
QuoteYou wish me to accept the idea that the root of all evil, the destructor of all cities is the fault of the demon like "machine style" politics.
If it makes you feel better.
QuoteI shall give you some thought
I'm chomping at the bit waiting for your reply. :D
Ciao!
Thanks for the response Silk. You have provided me with an interesting perspective. I now have an improved understanding of your posts.
Have a great day.
i'm honored.
Quote from: Vic0218 on July 28, 2008, 08:09:19 PM
(Note: I'm not channeling Mark here. really.)
I was definitely influencing you, though.
Quote from: buzz on July 28, 2008, 07:11:03 PM
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on July 28, 2008, 08:11:48 AM
Quote from: Terri on July 27, 2008, 09:36:20 PM
If they do sue, win & set up shop here after all
Where would they set up shop? The owner of the location in the DD does not have to keep that office vacant during the pending threat of litigation, does he? Is he somehow caught up in this as a 3rd party?
Excellent question. I've lost track of events that took place prior to the protest July 16 - did Ms. Buonauro & Co. sign a lease for the space? If so, when?
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on July 29, 2008, 12:55:04 PM
Quote from: buzz on July 28, 2008, 07:11:03 PM
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on July 28, 2008, 08:11:48 AM
Quote from: Terri on July 27, 2008, 09:36:20 PM
If they do sue, win & set up shop here after all
Where would they set up shop? The owner of the location in the DD does not have to keep that office vacant during the pending threat of litigation, does he? Is he somehow caught up in this as a 3rd party?
Excellent question. I've lost track of events that took place prior to the protest July 16 - did Ms. Buonauro & Co. sign a lease for the space? If so, when?
The owner of the building told the present tenants a lease was never signed.
And the beat goes on:
http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/berwyn/news/x1542102780/Senator-seeks-bill-to-stop-unwanted-rehab-clinics
Senator seeks bill to stop unwanted rehab clinics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Danya Hooker, dhooker@mysuburbanlife.com
Berwyn Life
Tue Jul 29, 2008, 05:20 PM CDT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berwyn, IL -
With Berwyn still reeling from the recent news that a private methadone clinic was about to open in the city's Depot District, state Sen. Martin Sandoval, D-12th District, of Chicago announced his intention to propose legislation regulating the locations of such clinics. He hopes to introduce the bill in November.
Q What about this issue made you decide to get involved?
A Berwyn residents contacting me all felt the public has been shut off of any and all information pertinent to the approval of this type of clinic. I have been a strong advocate of greater public access on information, community involvement and transparency.
Q What is the goal of your proposed bill?
A To provide greater public participation in the approval process of this type of facilities in Berwyn. In addition, I am extremely concerned about public safety of our children, families and seniors in our neighborhoods in Berwyn.
Q What is your stance on methadone clinics in general? Are they appropriate at all and, if so, where are they appropriate?
A Specifically related to methadone clinics, my inclination is that they should exist in nonresidential areas, preferably in a major medical complex/facility, and there should be mandatory notices and hearings for the general public prior to being licensed by the local municipality and state.
Q What sort of time frame can residents expect on this bill?
A I will do the initial submission of this bill later this fall at the beginning of the veto session in Springfield. I will work toward the passage of this bill during the next session.
Q What sort of support have you received from fellow lawmakers?
A I have already started reaching out to my fellow colleagues in the Senate to gather support for this bill.
Quote from: Ted on July 29, 2008, 06:53:50 PM
And the beat goes on:
http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/berwyn/news/x1542102780/Senator-seeks-bill-to-stop-unwanted-rehab-clinics
Senator seeks bill to stop unwanted rehab clinics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Danya Hooker, dhooker@mysuburbanlife.com
Berwyn Life
Tue Jul 29, 2008, 05:20 PM CDT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berwyn, IL -
With Berwyn still reeling from the recent news that a private methadone clinic was about to open in the city's Depot District, state Sen. Martin Sandoval, D-12th District, of Chicago announced his intention to propose legislation regulating the locations of such clinics. He hopes to introduce the bill in November.
Q What about this issue made you decide to get involved?
A Berwyn residents contacting me all felt the public has been shut off of any and all information pertinent to the approval of this type of clinic. I have been a strong advocate of greater public access on information, community involvement and transparency.
Q What is the goal of your proposed bill?
A To provide greater public participation in the approval process of this type of facilities in Berwyn. In addition, I am extremely concerned about public safety of our children, families and seniors in our neighborhoods in Berwyn.
Q What is your stance on methadone clinics in general? Are they appropriate at all and, if so, where are they appropriate?
A Specifically related to methadone clinics, my inclination is that they should exist in nonresidential areas, preferably in a major medical complex/facility, and there should be mandatory notices and hearings for the general public prior to being licensed by the local municipality and state.
Q What sort of time frame can residents expect on this bill?
A I will do the initial submission of this bill later this fall at the beginning of the veto session in Springfield. I will work toward the passage of this bill during the next session.
Q What sort of support have you received from fellow lawmakers?
A I have already started reaching out to my fellow colleagues in the Senate to gather support for this bill.
It is good to know that a senator is backing the citizens of Berwyn. About time someone is taking this seriously, and not passing the buck to someone else.
Well mom, according to the "experts" on this board, the methadon clinic is a "non-issue" and "old news".
Out of sight, out of mind? Great, just what we need, everyone to forget and go on like nothing happened.
I am sure it will be a hot topic come time to vote. I do wish that we had other people to vote for, after this incidence I honestly have no use for my Alderwomen, I don't care how much she loves this city, her "need to know policy" is for the birds. Don't get me wrong, I am not one for bashing people, but I don't need anyone putting my mom a senior, and my children at risk for an accident to happen.
Well Mom, the Methadone Four just proved t you that they place politics above all else, even the health and welfare of your mother and children.
Quote from: Ted on July 29, 2008, 06:53:50 PM
And the beat goes on:
http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/berwyn/news/x1542102780/Senator-seeks-bill-to-stop-unwanted-rehab-clinics
Senator seeks bill to stop unwanted rehab clinics
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Danya Hooker, dhooker@mysuburbanlife.com
Berwyn Life
Tue Jul 29, 2008, 05:20 PM CDT
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Berwyn, IL -
With Berwyn still reeling from the recent news that a private methadone clinic was about to open in the city's Depot District, state Sen. Martin Sandoval, D-12th District, of Chicago announced his intention to propose legislation regulating the locations of such clinics. He hopes to introduce the bill in November.
Q What about this issue made you decide to get involved?
A Berwyn residents contacting me all felt the public has been shut off of any and all information pertinent to the approval of this type of clinic. I have been a strong advocate of greater public access on information, community involvement and transparency.
Q What is the goal of your proposed bill?
A To provide greater public participation in the approval process of this type of facilities in Berwyn. In addition, I am extremely concerned about public safety of our children, families and seniors in our neighborhoods in Berwyn.
Q What is your stance on methadone clinics in general? Are they appropriate at all and, if so, where are they appropriate?
A Specifically related to methadone clinics, my inclination is that they should exist in nonresidential areas, preferably in a major medical complex/facility, and there should be mandatory notices and hearings for the general public prior to being licensed by the local municipality and state.
Q What sort of time frame can residents expect on this bill?
A I will do the initial submission of this bill later this fall at the beginning of the veto session in Springfield. I will work toward the passage of this bill during the next session.
Q What sort of support have you received from fellow lawmakers?
A I have already started reaching out to my fellow colleagues in the Senate to gather support for this bill.
Please send a letter or call Senator Sandoval's office to voice support for his proposal regulating the location of methadone clinics in nonresidential areas and mandatory notices and hearing prior to licensing. Thanks.
Senator Martin A. Sandoval, 12th District
124 Capital Building
Springfield, Il. 62706
217-782-5304
Cicero Office
5807 W. 35th St.
Cicero, Il. 60804
656-2002
I sure will contact and support him on this
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080801074151.htm
Quote from: KMSA on August 04, 2008, 07:19:43 PM
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/08/080801074151.htm
It is a drug clinic, not an oncology clinic.
Is Sandy up for re-election or is it just good press to get on the bandwagon?
According to the people I have talked to on this, the state needs to step up and regulate this issue. We are not the only ones that has had this issue.
Don't know the status of Sandoval's bill, but the clinic is in the process of
suing the city. They have retained a big honkin firm downtown. As predicted
by many, the city is going to get its clock cleaned on this one. OC conveniently
let the referendum regarding such clinics NOT make it on our Nov. ballot. It will appear
on the April ballot, exactly where he wanted it from day one.
Maybe Rita should have specified, anyone reliable have an update?
Anyone who doesn't blame everything from the bad economy to the Methadone clinic fiasco on the Mayor?
Quote from: Bear on November 16, 2008, 04:45:11 PM
Don't know the status of Sandoval's bill, but the clinic is in the process of
suing the city. They have retained a big honkin firm downtown. As predicted
by many, the city is going to get its clock cleaned on this one.
Yes, it's a shame the Methadone Four succumbed to the pressure of a few changed their minds and subjected us to this. Some "leaders."
They should be disallowed to run for office in this city again! Along with da mare who's out to tax us to death to cover all his lawsuits. And lawsuites.
Quote from: Bear on November 16, 2008, 04:45:11 PM
Don't know the status of Sandoval's bill, but the clinic is in the process of
suing the city. They have retained a big honkin firm downtown. As predicted
by many, the city is going to get its clock cleaned on this one. OC conveniently
let the referendum regarding such clinics NOT make it on our Nov. ballot. It will appear
on the April ballot, exactly where he wanted it from day one.
Why do you know the name of the Law Firm when supposedly nothing has been filed? When did the Mayor tell you he wanted the referendum on the April ballot? Let us know when the trial begins, I'm certain there are residents who would like to be in the courtroom.
Quote from: Bear on November 16, 2008, 04:45:11 PM
They have retained a big honkin firm downtown.
Which firm, you Mountain of Misinformation?
QuoteAs predicted by many,
By whom?
Who exactly predicted this?
Excluding your garden variety DCOB meatheads, yourself included.
Quotethe city is going to get its clock cleaned on this one.
Really?
Tell us Clarence Darrow, under what legal theory is the clinic going to sue?
And how would YOU, of all people, have any idea the likelihood of success on the merits?
QuoteOC conveniently let the referendum regarding such clinics NOT make it on our Nov. ballot.
OC had NOTHING to do with it, so stop being a lying j@#$off for once. Snafus by the city clerk and or city legal dept. do not automatically fall into the OC's to blame category. Unless of course you have a bone to pick .....................
Do you not have any sense of personal dignity?
Wow am I a lucky guy!....All three of the WIZE men of BTF
dumping on me. Can't wait to hear the deafening silence from
the three of you as this deal plays out.
I do believe you are on the inside on this one.
Nona being DCOB and friends with the people that wanted to open this clinic and you being the DCOB mouth piece on this board.
Congratulations to you and your friends for finally having the inside track.
I hope the voters all thank you and your group next year.
Quote from: Bear on November 16, 2008, 08:10:11 PM
Wow am I a lucky guy!....All three of the WIZE men of BTF
dumping on me. Can't wait to hear the deafening silence from
the three of you as this deal plays out.
And once again (as in the previous thread where you said I was getting on BP), you embarrass St. Leonard's with your inability to read as I did not dump on you.
There will be no "deafening silence" out of me, as it was your folks who changed their votes such that a lawsuit will happen.
Now quit being a "simplistic bitch" and stop your whining.
"I do believe you are on the inside on this one.
Nona being DCOB and friends with the people that wanted to open this clinic and you being the DCOB mouth piece on this board."
That's illogical, Thor. IF NONA is friends with these folks, she would have voted them in, right?
Or are you intimating that in the face of their constituents, Nona Chapman, Bob Lovero, Michelle Skryd, and Mike Phelan all changed their votes to KNOWINGLY STICK IT UP THE ASS OF THE BERWYN CITIZENS on this (understanding the city would get their "clock cleaned")?
Quote from: tony la on August 05, 2008, 11:30:50 AM
According to the people I have talked to on this, the state needs to step up and regulate this issue. We are not the only ones that has had this issue.
Its taken care of.
Nuff Said
Quote from: Bonster on November 16, 2008, 09:40:32 PM
"I do believe you are on the inside on this one.
Nona being DCOB and friends with the people that wanted to open this clinic and you being the DCOB mouth piece on this board."
That's illogical, Thor. IF NONA is friends with these folks, she would have voted them in, right?
Or are you intimating that in the face of their constituents, Nona Chapman, Bob Lovero, Michelle Skryd, and Mike Phelan all changed their votes to KNOWINGLY STICK IT UP THE ASS OF THE BERWYN CITIZENS on this (understanding the city would get their "clock cleaned")?
I'm intimating that these people live in Nona's ward. She knew them then and she knows them now. I am also going by how chummy she seemed to be with the Meth4 at the rally. Now Bear comes on this board with knowledge no one else seems to have so I'm am simple saying he is gettin that info from someone.
OR
Bear just came on here and spouted off a bunch of crap again.
Of course she knew the people who wanted to open the clinic. In the letter she sent to her constituents in the 1st ward trying to cover her ass when the shit hit the fan she said she had contact with them regarding the dopehead clinic. As a RESPONSIBLE alderman don't you think she would have reached out to her constituents to see how they felt regarding the clinic before voting yes. But she didn't because she thought they could just slide it on in without a fuss. Guess that came back to bite big time.
If a lawsuit is filed that's obviously going to hurt all taxpayers in Berwyn. Obviously, things should have been handled differently on many fronts. But I would still rather have a lawsuit than a meth clinic in the building where I take my kids to their pediatrician.
As of this morning, there are NO filings with the Clerk of the Circuit Court related to the clinic or City of Berwyn.
Bear - I have to admit that I am personally curious as to the source of your information that a lawsuit is imminent. I'm fairly certain you are correct - why wouldn't they sue, especially after initially receiving the support of the local alderman and city officials? Nona's letter in response to the outcry indicated that she had been helping them for some time in their search for a clinic.
Did you get this info directly from Elizabeth Buonauro or Sal Sottile? They live in Berwyn and probably friends with many, including folks on this board. They would probably be the ones who have the most relevant information about their plans to sue the city...maybe they have talked about it to other people here in the area? Either it is being talked about in city/political party meetings or more privately amongst friends.
Which is it?
Vic- Good luck getting any type of answer from Bear.
His job is to post as much bull as he can in hopes that one person will believe what he has to say.
But he is not allowed to answer any questions unless of course those answers have been preapproved by DCOB upper management.
Take a good look at his methods because this is what life will be like if DCOB wins next year. Rumors, innuendos, scarcasm and name calling BUT answer,,,,,,,,,,,,,,none.
Thor,
I don't think anyone with half a brain or any knowledge relating to Berwyn politics takes anything the Master of Misinformation posts seriously. The problem is when newbies take a look and don't have the requisite knowledge to realize it's trolling fluff.
Interesting how he attempts to put a positive spin on arguably, the DCOB's darkest moment-by blaming OC!!!!!
Then again, what else could one expect from the DCOB braintrust?
p.s. I've been waiting for an answer as to under what legal theory the Buonauro Clinic will sue the City, and ....... nothing.....for nearly six months now.
Bear, Stop they just don't get and never will.
Hey Silk mr. Big Time Lawyer, why don't you do some homework and open up one of your many law books and find out how and why they can sue and will win. Or are you just one of thoise mouth pieces that just talks and talks and talks and...... well you get it.
Didn,t take long for the meatheads to come out of the woodwork, did it?
There are NUMEROUS legal theories that one can sue under.
Once again, which cause of action, which venue, and which parties?
If they were going to sue I would think a lawsuit would have been filed by now. If it was something that would be big and juicy any number of reputable law firms would have grabbed it already. How many months has it been now?
At some point I believe it was said that the Buonauro group would sue -- using the angle that since substance abusers can now be classified as "disabled", to deny said "disabled" persons access to a treatment center (such as theirs) violates the ADA.
I also recall reading (on BTF) that if they decided to go that route, they, themselves, could not file the suit; it would have to be filed by a federal agency on behalf of the ADA -- or something like that. Anyone?
I don't understand why they would care to even pursue any kind of interaction with the City of Berwyn -- and instead just step off and find another suburban location that might actually want such a clinic. Was Cicero considered?
Cicero already has two "meth" clinics.
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on November 17, 2008, 07:29:58 PM
At some point I believe it was said that the Buonauro group would sue -- using the angle that since substance abusers can now be classified as "disabled", to deny said "disabled" persons access to a treatment center (such as theirs) violates the ADA.
I also recall reading (on BTF) that if they decided to go that route, they, themselves, could not file the suit; it would have to be filed by a federal agency on behalf of the ADA -- or something like that. Anyone?
I don't understand why they would care to even pursue any kind of interaction with the City of Berwyn -- and instead just step off and find another suburban location that might actually want such a clinic. Was Cicero considered?
Here's the problem LL-the
Master of Misinformation has been blabbering on about some supposed "promise" OC made to Buonauro regarding a lease.
That to me does NOT sound like an ADA issue heard in Federal Court, but rather a landlord/tenant matter heard in a municipal district courthouse.
Of course, the King Troller will throw any crap out there and see what sticks on the wall, but when he gets called on it, he retreats back into his hole until an alternative argument is concocted by the DCOB Council of Elders.
Hey zorba...when your done chubby chasing
you may care to take note that zoning gave them clearance.
-Opa Oprah!
Quote from: Bear on November 17, 2008, 10:25:38 PM
Hey zorba...when your done chubby chasing
you may care to take note that zoning gave them clearance.
-Opa Oprah!
Injudiciously, at that. They didn't read up.
Het Mr. Ed, what on God's earth does an ADVISORY opinion from the zba have to do with anything?
Quote from: SILK on November 17, 2008, 11:32:54 PM
Het Mr. Ed, what on God's earth does an ADVISORY opinion from the zba have to do with anything?
Andy,
Stop with the name calling.
Last warning.
Where do u see any name calling?
Read the post immediately above where I warned you.
Next one and you take a siesta.
Ok, so how exactly is a reference to a tv character any different than a reference to a movie (zorba) character?
Silk when do you SHUT THE FUCK UP?
looks like some body was right.
Buonauro et al v. City of Berwyn
Plaintiffs: Elizabeth Buonauro, Sal R. Sottile and The Bobby Buonauro Clinic, Inc.
Defendants: City of Berwyn
Case Number: 1:2008cv06687
Filed: November 21, 2008
Court: Illinois Northern District Court
Office: Civil Rights: Americans with Disabilities - Other Office [ Court Info ]
County: Cook
Presiding Judge: Honorable Amy J. St. Eve
Nature of Suit: Civil Rights - Americans with Disabilities - Other
Cause: Federal Question
Jurisdiction: Federal Question
Jury Demanded By: 28:1331 Federal Question
Well, Berwyn can
BLAME THE DCOB for this one.
They
knowingly changed their votes,
allowing this to happen. ;)
Some "leaders."
Quote from: Pigpen on November 24, 2008, 08:32:51 AM
Filed: November 21, 2008
This proves that Nona and other DCoBlowhards feed Bear information to post here.
Quote from: Bear on November 16, 2008, 04:45:11 PM
Don't know the status of Sandoval's bill, but the clinic is in the process of
suing the city. They have retained a big honkin firm downtown. As predicted
by many, the city is going to get its clock cleaned on this one.
Bonster, your way-out-there imagination sure has me laughing...
And BTW, I made reference to the suit here several months
before that last post
Bear, your denial of the truth sure has many here laughing...
And BTW, your previous reference here several months ago was just conjecture, which many claimed (myself included). Big deal.
Your post on November 16th, however, stated fact known only to those in regular contact with Sal & Liz.
Don't even attempt to insinuate you got that from casual conversation with your buddy, OC.
You are the acting mouthpiece.
Well, I guess this should make the Buonauro's, the DCOBRDO, and the Methadone Quartet amongst the most popular people in Berwyn. :D :D :D
On a more serious note, though, I don't see what the big deal is. Anyone can sue anyone else. The question is the likelihood of success. And even if the Buonauro's would pevail, its a cost the city taxpayers would be all too willing to pay given the circumstances.
p.s. I thought Bear kept blabbering on about a broken promise re lease by OC? This is a FEDERAL lawsuit brought forth under the ADA Act.
I don't believe the fact that these people filed a law-suit is a surprise to most Berwynites. Anyone can file a law-suit now days. These people obviously don't give a crap about our town and they don't care about disabled people either. It's all about hurt feelings and getting even. The fact is the people of Berwyn do not have a problem with these type of clinics opening up we just feel there are more appropriate places for this clinic to do business in Berwyn. So now the courts will have to decide if a town can dictate where these types of businesses can or cannot open.
1) What irritates me most is the fact that Nona and her brood was working with the Buonauro's to find a place and this is the best they could come up with?
2) That they waited till 3 other Alderman were not present in Council to ram this through.
3) That no neighborhood participation was given.
4) That Bear seems fit to come on this board with inside info to tell people "I told you so". But then again everything to the DCOBs is just a big game.
Bear doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
He kept talking about leases and broken promises, and the suit winds up being filed in FEDERAL COURT under the ADA.
Quote from: SILK on November 24, 2008, 10:03:57 AM
Bear doesn't know his ass from a hole in the ground.
He kept talking about leases and broken promises, and the suit winds up being filed in FEDERAL COURT under the ADA.
According to you mr wunderful, you stated in the past that there was no suit...
Go eat your crow like a good little boy now.
It shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone that the methadone clinic people are suing. This issue should have never made it's way to the city council for a vote much less the zoning board of appeals. The secretary of the zoning board of appeals commented that it shouldn't have even come to them in his opinion. The problem is that our incompetent city collector, Debi Suchy, denied them a permit even though the space was zoned for medical offices.
It then made its way to the ZBA where it was passed even though Milt Persins (the secretary) thought it shouldn't have been there (which it shouldn't). So to blame Chapman, Lovero, Skryd and Phelan isn't fair. The only ones to benefit are Odelson & Sterk (the city's law firm) who continue to bill for legal services. No one wanted a methadone clinic but the ones who voted for it initially I believe saw no legal reason to deny them.
A similar case and how it turned out:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3898/is_200212/ai_n9163247
Quote from: Northside7 on November 24, 2008, 10:24:34 AM
So to blame Chapman, Lovero, Skryd and Phelan isn't fair.
No one wanted a methadone clinic but the ones who voted for it initially I believe saw no legal reason to deny them.
So wrong. The ones who voted for it SAID the had NO CLUE how their constituents felt about it.
THEN they changed their votes, KNOWING a lawsuit was forthcoming.
I think they wanted this clinic, then chose not to act as responsible leaders.
I am not commenting on whether or not they knew their constituents were for it or against it. The fact remains that the clinic will most likely win a lawsuit against the city. All because the ineptness of our city collector, Ms. Suchy. If you don't believe me, go to the next zoning board of appeals meeting and ask Mr. Persins. The man has been around a very long time and knows his stuff. The methadone four as you like to call them, were only trying to protect your money from the inevitable lawsuit that would come. Isn't that what elected officials are supposed to do. In the end, the clinic will most likely be operating there and the only ones who will be better off for it are the law offices of Odelson & Sterk. Richie Bruen is going to be busy.
Wrong.
The fact remains that the clinic will most likely win a lawsuit against the city. All because the actions of FOUR who decided to LET it happen.
The Methadone Quartet was caught in a pickle.
They wanted the clinic in for political reasons.They used the potential lawsuit as cover.
What they didn't count on was the public outcry.
If they truly believed voting to avoid a lawsuit was in the city's best interest, then no amount of public outcry should have swayed their initial position.
If the rally changed thweir minds, then it proves two things:
1. They had NOT done their due diligence, as they all had previously maintained, and
2. Their PRIMARY concern was getting elected/reelected, as Michelle Skryd so eloquently reminded us.
Quote from: Northside7 on November 24, 2008, 10:42:23 AM
Isn't that what elected officials are supposed to do.
Maybe at the state or federal level but at the local Aldermanic level they should seek out their constituants opinion. I believe all of this could have been avoided if they had not been so sneaky about the whole thing. So for them to turn around and say we were just looking out for your best interest and then changing their vote in the end anyway dosen't make sense.
Again, let us go back to the incident that set the whole thing in motion, the ineptness of our city collector Ms. Suchy. Anyone care to comment?
Quote from: Northside7 on November 24, 2008, 10:55:18 AM
Again, let us go back to the incident that set the whole thing in motion, the ineptness of our city collector Ms. Suchy. Anyone care to comment?
Yeah, I'll comment.
One more comment like that and you are out of here. I've not heard her name mentioned at council regarding this matter, only you.
Take your attacks elsewhere.
Quote from: Northside7 on November 24, 2008, 10:42:23 AM
I am not commenting on whether or not they knew their constituents were for it or against it.
You should.
It's one of the PRIMARY issues in the matter.
QuoteThe fact remains that the clinic will most likely win a lawsuit against the city.
You have NO WAY of knowing that. Unless of course you have seen the complaint, know ALL the facts, and are qualified as an attorney to render an opinion.
Are you?
QuoteAll because the ineptness of our city collector, Ms. Suchy.
Wrong again.
The City Collector is only involved at the initial stage.
A business license applicant in the City of Berwyn who has been denied by the City Collector has additional recourse, namely City Council and the Zoning Board of Appeals.
Nice try, though.
QuoteIf you don't believe me, go to the next zoning board of appeals meeting and ask Mr. Persins. The man has been around a very long time and knows his stuff.
Who?
QuoteThe methadone four as you like to call them, were only trying to protect your money from the inevitable lawsuit that would come. Isn't that what elected officials are supposed to do.
Then why change their votes?
QuoteIn the end, the clinic will most likely be operating there and the only ones who will be better off for it are the law offices of Odelson & Sterk. Richie Bruen is going to be busy.
Probably not. If they're seeking BIG money, as you say, that will probably be the extent of their recovery, if they prevail.
Berwyn aside, it really bugs me that drug addicts are considered disabled. It also really bugs me that a law can strong arm communities to allow these clinics.
(http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/Themes/babylon/images/icons/folder_open.gif) Who's Online
Liz Buonauro (http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/Themes/babylon/images/useron.gif) 11:03:39 AM Viewing the board Political Discussion.
Bonster,
Does that surprise you?
Owners of methadone clinic sue Berwyn
By Kristen Zambo, kzambo@mysuburbanlife.com
Berwyn Life
Mon Nov 24, 2008, 11:34 AM CST
The owners of an Evanston methadone clinic, who were denied opening a facility in Berwyn earlier this year, filed a federal lawsuit Friday against the city.
In the lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Chicago, owner Elizabeth Buonauro and her husband, Sal R. Sotille, accuse the city of violating the federal Americans with Disabilities Act, federal Rehabilitation Act and their 14th Amendment right to equal protection.
"The city of Berwyn's decision to deny (the couple's) license application was arbitrary, vindictive, and made with illegitimate animus and ill will, and the city's zoning laws were applied and enforced with a discriminatory intent and purpose," the couple said in their lawsuit.
A message was left for Berwyn Mayor Michael O'Connor Monday, but he was unavailable for immediate comment. City attorneys also were unavailable for comment.
Plans for the medical clinic in the Depot District earlier this year drew sharp criticism. Hundreds of protesters flocked in July to a municipal parking lot in the 3300 block of Grove Avenue, near where the methadone clinic was planned. Opponents said they feared that drug addicts coming into the area would bring more crime to the region.
Buonauro was planning to serve as executive director of the Bobby Buonauro Clinic while Sotille to serve as assistant director.
After initially agreeing to the project, Berwyn aldermen reversed their decision July 22.
"The city of Berwyn failed to base its decision to deny (the clinic's) request for a license on any rational basis or legitimate governmental objectives but instead unilaterally disregarded its proper and customary procedures and discriminated against (the clinic) vowing they would not allow a methadone clinic in their neighborhood regardless of how much of the taxpayers' money was spent in litigation," the lawsuit said.
The Rehabilitation Act, passed in 1973, bars discrimination based on disability in programs conducted by federal agencies, in programs receiving federal financial assistance, in federal employment and in the employment practices of federal contractors. The couple content that the city violated this law by discriminating against them and their prospective patients.
Just like apat; the part that really makes me mad, besides where the Meth four, Liz and Sal wanted to locate this clinic, is the fact that they can sue under the ADA.
Changes need to be made to the ADA that does not allow this type of lawsuit. The ADA was enacted to protect people with disabilities; not drug addicts and alcoholics.
A feceral lawsuit? Get ready to wait Liz and Sal until you get a return from that. Of course you might have grandkids - at least I hope so.
You asked for it Liz. Better take cover......
As the mother of three children with developmental disabilities, this makes me want to puke. Using the ADA for Drug Addicts and Alcoholics. I only wish the Federal Courts would throw this out. I know it won't get thrown out, but when I see people use a law, like the ADA, in this manner it makes me very angry.
The couple are creeps. Sal was making some off color comments about my wife at the Halloween party I found out later. As far as I'm concerned they are trailerpark trash. And now they are looking to make a buck off my taxes. You fuckers should be ashamed of yourselves.
Cathy - I share your disgust for this. Equating a child with disabilties to an adult who has chosen to become disabled because of an addiction to drugs or alcohol is not right.
Quote from: Liz Buonauro on November 24, 2008, 06:34:24 PM
Owners of methadone clinic sue Berwyn
By Kristen Zambo, kzambo@mysuburbanlife.com
Berwyn Life
Mon Nov 24, 2008, 11:34 AM CST
The owners of an Evanston methadone clinic, who were denied opening a facility in Berwyn earlier this year, filed a federal lawsuit Friday against the city.
In the lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Chicago, owner Elizabeth Buonauro and her husband, Sal R. Sotille, accuse the city of violating the federal Americans with Disabilities Act, federal Rehabilitation Act and their 14th Amendment right to equal protection.
"The city of Berwyn's decision to deny (the couple's) license application was arbitrary, vindictive, and made with illegitimate animus and ill will, and the city's zoning laws were applied and enforced with a discriminatory intent and purpose," the couple said in their lawsuit.
A message was left for Berwyn Mayor Michael O'Connor Monday, but he was unavailable for immediate comment. City attorneys also were unavailable for comment.
Plans for the medical clinic in the Depot District earlier this year drew sharp criticism. Hundreds of protesters flocked in July to a municipal parking lot in the 3300 block of Grove Avenue, near where the methadone clinic was planned. Opponents said they feared that drug addicts coming into the area would bring more crime to the region.
Buonauro was planning to serve as executive director of the Bobby Buonauro Clinic while Sotille to serve as assistant director.
After initially agreeing to the project, Berwyn aldermen reversed their decision July 22.
"The city of Berwyn failed to base its decision to deny (the clinic's) request for a license on any rational basis or legitimate governmental objectives but instead unilaterally disregarded its proper and customary procedures and discriminated against (the clinic) vowing they would not allow a methadone clinic in their neighborhood regardless of how much of the taxpayers' money was spent in litigation," the lawsuit said.
The Rehabilitation Act, passed in 1973, bars discrimination based on disability in programs conducted by federal agencies, in programs receiving federal financial assistance, in federal employment and in the employment practices of federal contractors. The couple content that the city violated this law by discriminating against them and their prospective patients.
You suck. Go find a trailer park in Oklahoma to infest your hillbilly ways on.
I think what people should keep in mind is that the Buonauro's are not simply prospective business owners, they're your NEIGHBORS.
Quote from: SILK on November 24, 2008, 10:31:29 PM
I think what people should keep in mind is that the Buonauro's are not simply prospective business owners, they're your NEIGHBORS.
Which brings an old saying to mind, "don't piss in your own lunchbox."
OK so far we have learned that these people are bad neighbors and that they want to make a quick buck from us. So now what? Do we sit and wait? Can we help the city and its legal reps in some way? I'd be willing to take a day or two off and picket at their Evanston location. If they are gonna hit us in the pocket book, can we do the same?
Can we find out when this is coming up to trial and then attend so that the judge know what this means to us? Can we take a day trip to Springfield as a community and picket?
I like that we are all MAD but I think we should channel that anger.
"I'd be willing to take a day or two off and picket at their Evanston location."
Thor, I would much rather see you burn your bra on OPA.
- Flower power
lol!
Quote from: Hogzilla on November 25, 2008, 06:39:52 AM
Quote from: SILK on November 24, 2008, 10:31:29 PM
I think what people should keep in mind is that the Buonauro's are not simply prospective business owners, they're your NEIGHBORS.
Which brings an old saying to mind, "don't piss in your own lunchbox."
I hope they're feelin the love every time they walk out their front door and onto the streets of Berwyn.
Quote from: Bear on November 25, 2008, 08:41:27 AM
"I'd be willing to take a day or two off and picket at their Evanston location."
Thor, I would much rather see you burn your bra on OPA.
- Flower power
I would also rather burn my bra on OPA then just come on here and bitch and moan and whine and then blame the Mayor for everything with cockamamie conspiracy theories. At least it's doing something. Flower Power Rocks!!
offtopic
Thor I would be willing to go.
Liz may I ask how long you have been off methodone.
Well I'm reading all of these posts and I wonder how the good people of Berwyn can live with themselves. These people did nothing wrong. They tried to expand their existing business into their own community. Whether we agree with that business or not is beside the point. Think about how they were publicly humiliated in front of their friends and neighbors. Tell me what would make a mother send her children screaming at a woman remarks like Lizzie Borden had an ax..... If anyone should be taken to task for what is happening it is our community leaders. There is no money grabbing going on. I believe just some sort of vindication for how they were treated. This is after all America where we are supposed to be able to pursue what we believe is our constitutional rights.
Quote from: FedUp on November 25, 2008, 10:25:26 AM
Well I'm reading all of these posts and I wonder how the good people of Berwyn can live with themselves. These people did nothing wrong. They tried to expand their existing business into their own community. Whether we agree with that business or not is beside the point. Think about how they were publicly humiliated in front of their friends and neighbors. Tell me what would make a mother send her children screaming at a woman remarks like Lizzie Borden had an ax..... If anyone should be taken to task for what is happening it is our community leaders. There is no money grabbing going on. I believe just some sort of vindication for how they were treated. This is after all America where we are supposed to be able to pursue what we believe is our constitutional rights.
I agree there were people at that meeting that were not nice BUT there were also allot of people that were there to listen and learn. I for one had to tell a few of the people around me to please be quiet so I can hear what she had to say. BUT I also noticed that she was belligerent and also went up to the podium with an attitude. The bottom-line is whether or not a community has a right to voice how their community should look. I have no problem with a Methadone clinic opening up in Berwyn BUT does it have to be in the same building where pediatricians are located? There are plenty of empty medical type offices are Berwyn. I am not yet familar with the Evanston location, is it located in a "family oriented" area?
BTW- Are they working with anyone to try and find another suitable location? Or is this indeed about hurt feelings and not about the ADA?
Beside the point?
God I'm glad there's people like you on this board.
This is a proposed METHADONE clinic we're talking about, not a shelter for battered women or something else along those lines.
The people that CREATED this mess were the Buonaro's themselves.
And NO, it's not just another business.
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 10:37:58 AM
Quote from: FedUp on November 25, 2008, 10:25:26 AM
Well I'm reading all of these posts and I wonder how the good people of Berwyn can live with themselves. These people did nothing wrong. They tried to expand their existing business into their own community. Whether we agree with that business or not is beside the point. Think about how they were publicly humiliated in front of their friends and neighbors. Tell me what would make a mother send her children screaming at a woman remarks like Lizzie Borden had an ax..... If anyone should be taken to task for what is happening it is our community leaders. There is no money grabbing going on. I believe just some sort of vindication for how they were treated. This is after all America where we are supposed to be able to pursue what we believe is our constitutional rights.
I agree there were people at that meeting that were not nice BUT there were also allot of people that were there to listen and learn. I for one had to tell a few of the people around me to please be quiet so I can hear what she had to say. BUT I also noticed that she was belligerent and also went up to the podium with an attitude. The bottom-line is whether or not a community has a right to voice how their community should look. I have no problem with a Methadone clinic opening up in Berwyn BUT does it have to be in the same building where pediatricians are located? There are plenty of empty medical type offices are Berwyn. I am not yet familar with the Evanston location, is it located in a "family oriented" area?
BTW- Are they working with anyone to try and find another suitable location? Or is this indeed about hurt feelings and not about the ADA?
Thor I have none of those answers for you. But I suppose that if it were me walking onto that podium it would be real hard not to be defensive and almost with an attitude. Again what did they do wrong?
Quote from: SILK on November 25, 2008, 10:40:27 AM
Beside the point?
God I'm glad there's people like you on this board.
This is a proposed METHADONE clinic we're talking about, not a shelter for battered women or something else along those lines.
The people that CREATED this mess were the Buonaro's themselves.
And NO, it's not just another business.
And yes it is beside the point...
Not everone agrees with every business in the world but it is just that a business....
How did they create this mess? By trying to expand?
For easier reading:
Thor I have none of those answers for you. But I suppose that if it were me walking onto that podium it would be real hard not to be defensive and almost with an attitude. Again what did they do wrong?
Silk,
And yes it is beside the point....
Not everyone agrees with every business in the world but it is just that a business......
How did they create this mess? By trying to expand?
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 10:37:58 AM
BTW- Are they working with anyone to try and find another suitable location? Or is this indeed about hurt feelings and not about the ADA?
Those are very good questions. I am guessing the ADA was their best shot at putting a solid legal wedge in to get what they wanted out of this.
They wanted to open a methadone clinic in the town they live in. Once they found out how their fellow Berwynites felt (and they definitely knew after the meeting on Grove) why didn't they just decide that maybe this wasn't the best location for it and look for something more suitable is the question in my mind. Why would you want to become a pariah in your own town?
Why your OWN town in the first place?
Mrs. Northsider, I agree. Once they knew how their fellow Berwyn Citizens felt, they should have looked for another location. I still have to ask "why Berwyn" when there are already two meth clinics in Cicero?
Thor is right. What can Berwyn Citizens do? Has anyone spoke with Sandoval, Burke or Hernandez?
Quote from: FedUp on November 25, 2008, 11:12:25 AM
For easier reading:
Thor I have none of those answers for you. But I suppose that if it were me walking onto that podium it would be real hard not to be defensive and almost with an attitude. Again what did they do wrong?
Silk,
And yes it is beside the point....
Not everyone agrees with every business in the world but it is just that a business......
How did they create this mess? By trying to expand?
I have to disagree, plenty of people get called on to defend an unpopular stand in far worse situations and manage to do so without issue. Unfortunatley Liz was not up to the task. But I guess your point is why are people pissed off at the Buonauros since you feel they are just trying to live the American dream and expand their business. I can speak for myself and say that I personally had no issue with the Buonauros up until they filed the lawsuit. But I have always had an issue with the 4 Alderman that tried to sneak it by without community participation, "for our own good". I did a Google Map on their Evanston location and it is much different that the location they are proposing to open in Berwyn. So why can't they look for a location similar to what the have there, mainly a more industrial/commerical avenue like Howard, maybe Harlem or Ogden? My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice, as well as the communities in general as this location not being appropriate.
O.K. so lets look at the events as they occurred.
October / 06 Bounauro clinic decides to open another clinic. They do their due diligence and decide the near west suburbs is where their best fit lies. They begin a search with realtors in various suburbs such as Lyons, Brookfield, McCook, Summit, Stickney, and BERWYN.
September / 07 Bounauros are attending Berwyn Oktoberfest and meet up with the Mayor. In a conversation with him they told him what they were doing and how hard it has been to find a location that fits their needs (e.g square footage etc..) At this time the Mayor knows them and knows exactly what they do.
January / 08 Bounauros find a space and lo and behold it is on Grove Ave. The Buonauros meet Debi Suchy and inquire about a business license. Ms. Suchy informs them that in order to get a license they need to sign a lease. So they sign a lease begin paying rent and start plans to remodel.
Soon after signing the lease they go for their license. This is when the City tells them that they need to go to ZBA (no reason to, med office in a med building) cost $900.00. Approved at ZBA. Go to city council. Council by law cannot deny and don't as we all know how the vote went.
I feel the 4 yes votes at council was the right thing to do. They legally cannot deny.
As to why the Bounauro Clinic after the lynch mob assembly on Grove immediately pull out is I believe because they had already spent a number of thousands of dollars on what they believed to be a bona fide move.
To show contempt for these people is wrong. They did everything above board.
To blame the 4 alderman is also wrong. This should have and could have been handled so as none of this would have happened as it did.
Sal and Liz are good professional people. To call them trailer trash or insinuate a dependence on methadone is out of line.
IMO any and all grievances concerning this debacle should start at the top of our elected officials and not directed at Sal or Liz.
So a chance meeting at a street fair causes all this to be OC's fault? Do you actually believe what you write?
And none of the Methadone four have any responsibility? Of course not, they are always ready to blame someone else. They never take responsibility.
Now I know why Bonster calls you Filled Up. You're full of hot air.
How would YOU know what's legally permissible?
How would YOU know what transpired between the Buoanaro's, Suchy, and the Mayor?
How would YOU know where exactly the Buonauro's had searched?
Where did u come up with the idea that city council can,t override the zba?
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on November 25, 2008, 04:37:51 PM
So a chance meeting at a street fair causes all this to be OC's fault? Do you actually believe what you write?
And none of the Methadone four have any responsibility? Of course not, they are always ready to blame someone else. They never take responsibility.
Thats not what I said. The jist of it all is the bashing of these two people is wrong. They did what any business person should do.
Quote from: SILK on November 25, 2008, 04:38:59 PM
Now I know why Bonster calls you Filled Up. You're full of hot air.
How would YOU know what's legally permissible?
How would YOU know what transpired between the Buoanaro's, Suchy, and the Mayor?
How would YOU know where exactly the Buonauro's had searched?
Where did u come up with the idea that city council can,t override the zba?
Legally no grounds for denial hence the law suit.
How do I know where they searched?
How do I know what transpired between them and the city?
Simple I ASKED THEM
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on November 25, 2008, 04:37:51 PM
So a chance meeting at a street fair causes all this to be OC's fault? Do you actually believe what you write?
And none of the Methadone four have any responsibility? Of course not, they are always ready to blame someone else. They never take responsibility.
Tell me OPS what has the mayor ever taken responsibility for?
Do you realise that since 05 there have been more lawsuits filed against this city than the previous 30 years combined.
No OPS, it may not make it O'Connor's fault. But it does make him a liar.
And Thor, so you're upset that Sal and Liz disregarded your voice. What kind of childish tantrum are you having? Do you really think your permission is needed before the city, a current or prospective business or home owner, undertakes a project?
The comments on this thread, at least most of them, make me embarrassed to be a resident of Berwyn. I used to defend Berwyn as being unfairly maligned. Now I'm in the position of being an apologist for the community. And guess what? I'm not going to do it. I used to blame the city's various administrations for Berwyn's lack of progress and respect. I now realize I was mistaken.
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 05:15:46 PM
No OPS, it may not make it O'Connor's fault. But it does make him a liar.
And Thor, so you're upset that Sal and Liz disregarded your voice. What kind of childish tantrum are you having? Do you really think your permission is needed before the city, a current or prospective business or home owner, undertakes a project?
The comments on this thread, at least most of them, make me embarrassed to be a resident of Berwyn. I used to defend Berwyn as being unfairly maligned. Now I'm in the position of being an apologist for the community. And guess what? I'm not going to do it. I used to blame the city's various administrations for Berwyn's lack of progress and respect. I now realize I was mistaken.
Did they make an appointment and speak with him in the office? I would not base a business decision upon a chance encounter in a social setting.
I think what you see here is a lot of residents who don't want a perceived negative in their neighborhood/community.
So there have been more lawsuits filed against the city...how many have been filed since 05 and how many were filed from 1975-2005? I keep hearing this same tune, but nothing other than rumors from the DCOB to back it up. And if the Skryd lawsuit is representative of the lawsuits being filed, then I am happy they are being filed, because that means someone is paying attention in the administration and not letting the taxpayers be taken to the cleaners.
Quote from: FedUp on November 25, 2008, 04:17:39 PM
O.K. so lets look at the events as they occurred.
October / 06 Bounauro clinic decides to open another clinic. They do their due diligence and decide the near west suburbs is where their best fit lies. They begin a search with realtors in various suburbs such as Lyons, Brookfield, McCook, Summit, Stickney, and BERWYN.
September / 07 Bounauros are attending Berwyn Oktoberfest and meet up with the Mayor. In a conversation with him they told him what they were doing and how hard it has been to find a location that fits their needs (e.g square footage etc..) At this time the Mayor knows them and knows exactly what they do.
January / 08 Bounauros find a space and lo and behold it is on Grove Ave. The Buonauros meet Debi Suchy and inquire about a business license. Ms. Suchy informs them that in order to get a license they need to sign a lease. So they sign a lease begin paying rent and start plans to remodel.
Soon after signing the lease they go for their license. This is when the City tells them that they need to go to ZBA (no reason to, med office in a med building) cost $900.00. Approved at ZBA. Go to city council. Council by law cannot deny and don't as we all know how the vote went.
I feel the 4 yes votes at council was the right thing to do. They legally cannot deny.
As to why the Bounauro Clinic after the lynch mob assembly on Grove immediately pull out is I believe because they had already spent a number of thousands of dollars on what they believed to be a bona fide move.
To show contempt for these people is wrong. They did everything above board.
To blame the 4 alderman is also wrong. This should have and could have been handled so as none of this would have happened as it did.
Sal and Liz are good professional people. To call them trailer trash or insinuate a dependence on methadone is out of line.
IMO any and all grievances concerning this debacle should start at the top of our elected officials and not directed at Sal or Liz.
Did they sign the lease subject to city approval. And how long has it been since Liz has been off methadone.
"No OPS, it may not make it O'Connor's fault. But it does make him a liar"
It is OC's fault, Liz holds him directly responsible for this fiasco,
they would have walked away in the beginning if OC showed any negative opinion
of the clinic. They were encouraged by him to get the lease, and he
had full knowledge that it was a meth clinic at that time.
That above info was offered to me by Liz the night of the rally.
When public opinion on BTF went south, and OC started to get phone calls
from people, he threw her under the bus and turned the events into
a political weapon against his enemies for his own advantage.
Quote from: Bear on November 25, 2008, 05:44:32 PM
It is OC's fault, Liz holds him directly responsible for this fiasco,
they would have walked away in the beginning if OC showed any negative opinion
of the clinic.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. You are just sooo credible anymore.
I hold the four alderman equally complicit in this lawsuit.
Real leaders wouldn't give in to a couple rabid citizens for fear of damaging their repuation for the upcoming elections.
So...one person who stand to benefit financially if OC does what she wants holds him responsible, and the rest of the community should think this is good???
So essentially, if the methadone clinic was opened, this would be a good thing in your (and the DCOB) eyes? Interesting.
Not at all Brian, if you look back into the bowels of this thread
and BTF you will see I was vehemently against it and one of the first
here to alert people about it.
That's right, Reply #89 (http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=5785.msg99023#msg99023).
That's terrible you would alter your position for political reasons.
Bear must've pissed Sal off, though... :D
Quote from: Sal R. Sottile on July 13, 2008, 10:10:58 AM
Bear
I take offence at your bad mouthing me, my wife, our clients and/or our Clinic.
You can take your gut instinct and .....
Which is ironic, since:
Quote
Sal was making some off color comments about my wife at the Halloween party I found out later. As far as I'm concerned they are trailerpark trash.
First of all why is everything with you OPS DCOB. That is all you can ever say.
Second Tony La where do you get off with the Liz on methadone comments.
Both of you act like little children come up with something different will ya.
FedUp,
So how do you kno what legally holds up in court?
"That's terrible you would alter your position for political reasons."
Never did alter my position I'm still against it. I was upset that the mayor caused the problem,
and then turned it into a political weapon and USED several people to do such.
"Sal was making some off color comments about my wife at the Halloween party I found out later. As far as I'm concerned they are trailerpark trash."
Bonster you used the above quote but did not name the person who made it or the person
they are speaking of. Please explain for us, and name the parties involved.
Quote from: FedUp on November 25, 2008, 07:12:31 PM
First of all why is everything with you OPS DCOB. That is all you can ever say.
Second Tony La where do you get off with the Liz on methadone comments.
Both of you act like little children come up with something different will ya.
Actually that's not all I say.
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 05:15:46 PM
No OPS, it may not make it O'Connor's fault. But it does make him a liar.
And Thor, so you're upset that Sal and Liz disregarded your voice. What kind of childish tantrum are you having? Do you really think your permission is needed before the city, a current or prospective business or home owner, undertakes a project?
The comments on this thread, at least most of them, make me embarrassed to be a resident of Berwyn. I used to defend Berwyn as being unfairly maligned. Now I'm in the position of being an apologist for the community. And guess what? I'm not going to do it. I used to blame the city's various administrations for Berwyn's lack of progress and respect. I now realize I was mistaken.
ESAD- I am not having a "childish tantrum" I am trying to answer FedUps question which he addressed to me, not you. That is the reason I gave MY OPINION and MY FEELINGS, if you don't like them or have a problem with the too bad. I am also glad you now somehow have seen the light but quite frankly I have never asked you to aplogize for me and I doubt anyone in this community has either. If you now feel disdain for Berwyn then you know what you can do,,,,,,,,you have options
Quote from: FedUp on November 25, 2008, 04:17:39 PM
O.K. so lets look at the events as they occurred.
October / 06 Bounauro clinic decides to open another clinic. They do their due diligence and decide the near west suburbs is where their best fit lies. They begin a search with realtors in various suburbs such as Lyons, Brookfield, McCook, Summit, Stickney, and BERWYN.
September / 07 Bounauros are attending Berwyn Oktoberfest and meet up with the Mayor. In a conversation with him they told him what they were doing and how hard it has been to find a location that fits their needs (e.g square footage etc..) At this time the Mayor knows them and knows exactly what they do.
January / 08 Bounauros find a space and lo and behold it is on Grove Ave. The Buonauros meet Debi Suchy and inquire about a business license. Ms. Suchy informs them that in order to get a license they need to sign a lease. So they sign a lease begin paying rent and start plans to remodel.
Soon after signing the lease they go for their license. This is when the City tells them that they need to go to ZBA (no reason to, med office in a med building) cost $900.00. Approved at ZBA. Go to city council. Council by law cannot deny and don't as we all know how the vote went.
I feel the 4 yes votes at council was the right thing to do. They legally cannot deny.
As to why the Bounauro Clinic after the lynch mob assembly on Grove immediately pull out is I believe because they had already spent a number of thousands of dollars on what they believed to be a bona fide move.
To show contempt for these people is wrong. They did everything above board.
To blame the 4 alderman is also wrong. This should have and could have been handled so as none of this would have happened as it did.
Sal and Liz are good professional people. To call them trailer trash or insinuate a dependence on methadone is out of line.
IMO any and all grievances concerning this debacle should start at the top of our elected officials and not directed at Sal or Liz.
What is the address of the leased office space?
Quote from: ghost on November 24, 2008, 06:43:41 PM
Just like apat; the part that really makes me mad, besides where the Meth four, Liz and Sal wanted to locate this clinic, is the fact that they can sue under the ADA.
Changes need to be made to the ADA that does not allow this type of lawsuit. The ADA was enacted to protect people with disabilities; not drug addicts and alcoholics.
But, can they, themselves sue using the ADA angle? It would seem to me that a federal agency would have to be the entity filing the lawsuit regarding their perceived violation of the ADA -- if there were grounds to do so. Last I heard, the BBC people are a private business and not affiliated with any such agency. Someone, help me understand why they can even drag the ADA into this clusterf/k? Do they get federal money to operate this clinic? I don't remember, if so.
I'm now also wondering whether these two entrepreneurs stand to make out
better from the proceeds of a lawsuit than they would from the actual operation of said "clinic" here in Berwyn.
Something has smelled about this whole thing from the get go and it just keeps getting more suspicious -- to me anyway. The overall conduct of these two 'business owners' does not indicate to me any sincere desire to help anyone except themselves. That they appear to be using the ADA to garner pity and attention
for themselves is, to me, dispicable (at best!) and shows extreme disrespect to those persons who are disabled through no choice of their own.
LL:
Good questions. Will these two business owners make out better with a lawsuit? I have to wonder, will this lawsuit linger in the Federal Courts?
Something is suspicious about the whole thing. I do hope that no one forgets this when it is time to vote in February/April. Time to clean house! I only hope we have some better candidates running than we currently have.
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 05:15:46 PM
No OPS, it may not make it O'Connor's fault. But it does make him a liar.
And Thor, so you're upset that Sal and Liz disregarded your voice. What kind of childish tantrum are you having? Do you really think your permission is needed before the city, a current or prospective business or home owner, undertakes a project?
The comments on this thread, at least most of them, make me embarrassed to be a resident of Berwyn. I used to defend Berwyn as being unfairly maligned. Now I'm in the position of being an apologist for the community. And guess what? I'm not going to do it. I used to blame the city's various administrations for Berwyn's lack of progress and respect. I now realize I was mistaken.
ESAD- I am not having a "childish tantrum" I am trying to answer FedUps question which he addressed to me, not you. That is the reason I gave MY OPINION and MY FEELINGS, if you don't like them or have a problem with the too bad. I am also glad you now somehow have seen the light but quite frankly I have never asked you to aplogize for me and I doubt anyone in this community has either. If you now feel disdain for Berwyn then you know what you can do,,,,,,,,you have options
"My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice. . ." Ring a bell, Thor? Well, isn't that too bad. Yes, you have a right to be heard and, within the somewhat flexible parameters of OPS, post your feelings/opinions. You do not, however, have a right to get your way.
This is a forum where people can post a response to any other comments. You want a private chat with someone, IM them. Otherwise, any comments you post are fair game.
If by seeing the light you mean I've come to realize (some of) the people who live here are a big part of the problem, you are correct, and a case in point. As for leaving, it's an option I intend to exercise (sooner rather than later), as I have little hope that Berwyn can ever move forward. (This is the opinion of someone who's lived here almost 10 years and whose family has had a business here for over 50 years.) Generally, the people who are capable of building the community don't stay. Those that stay don't have the numbers to accomplish much given the apathy and nitwits they're up against.
Quote from: FedUp on November 25, 2008, 04:17:39 PM
O.K. so lets look at the events as they occurred.
October / 06 Bounauro clinic decides to open another clinic. They do their due diligence and decide the near west suburbs is where their best fit lies. They begin a search with realtors in various suburbs such as Lyons, Brookfield, McCook, Summit, Stickney, and BERWYN.
September / 07 Bounauros are attending Berwyn Oktoberfest and meet up with the Mayor. In a conversation with him they told him what they were doing and how hard it has been to find a location that fits their needs (e.g square footage etc..) At this time the Mayor knows them and knows exactly what they do.
January / 08 Bounauros find a space and lo and behold it is on Grove Ave. The Buonauros meet Debi Suchy and inquire about a business license. Ms. Suchy informs them that in order to get a license they need to sign a lease. So they sign a lease begin paying rent and start plans to remodel.
Soon after signing the lease they go for their license. This is when the City tells them that they need to go to ZBA (no reason to, med office in a med building) cost $900.00. Approved at ZBA. Go to city council. Council by law cannot deny and don't as we all know how the vote went.
I feel the 4 yes votes at council was the right thing to do. They legally cannot deny.
As to why the Bounauro Clinic after the lynch mob assembly on Grove immediately pull out is I believe because they had already spent a number of thousands of dollars on what they believed to be a bona fide move.
To show contempt for these people is wrong. They did everything above board.
To blame the 4 alderman is also wrong. This should have and could have been handled so as none of this would have happened as it did.
Sal and Liz are good professional people. To call them trailer trash or insinuate a dependence on methadone is out of line.
IMO any and all grievances concerning this debacle should start at the top of our elected officials and not directed at Sal or Liz.
FedUp- Are you saying that Liz is basing that she had the Mayor's ok based on a non-official conversation she had during an off hour celebration? That's crazy.
Now answer me a question, do you think it was a coincidence that the 2nd time the Meth clinic comes before Council there are enough Alderman not present that Lovero, Skyrd and Chapman can give the ok against the Mayor's no vote? This is why I blame the other Alderman.
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 05:15:46 PM
No OPS, it may not make it O'Connor's fault. But it does make him a liar.
And Thor, so you're upset that Sal and Liz disregarded your voice. What kind of childish tantrum are you having? Do you really think your permission is needed before the city, a current or prospective business or home owner, undertakes a project?
The comments on this thread, at least most of them, make me embarrassed to be a resident of Berwyn. I used to defend Berwyn as being unfairly maligned. Now I'm in the position of being an apologist for the community. And guess what? I'm not going to do it. I used to blame the city's various administrations for Berwyn's lack of progress and respect. I now realize I was mistaken.
ESAD- I am not having a "childish tantrum" I am trying to answer FedUps question which he addressed to me, not you. That is the reason I gave MY OPINION and MY FEELINGS, if you don't like them or have a problem with the too bad. I am also glad you now somehow have seen the light but quite frankly I have never asked you to aplogize for me and I doubt anyone in this community has either. If you now feel disdain for Berwyn then you know what you can do,,,,,,,,you have options
"My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice. . ." Ring a bell, Thor? Well, isn't that too bad. Yes, you have a right to be heard and, within the somewhat flexible parameters of OPS, post your feelings/opinions. You do not, however, have a right to get your way.
This is a forum where people can post a response to any other comments. You want a private chat with someone, IM them. Otherwise, any comments you post are fair game.
If by seeing the light you mean I've come to realize (some of) the people who live here are a big part of the problem, you are correct, and a case in point. As for leaving, it's an option I intend to exercise (sooner rather than later), as I have little hope that Berwyn can ever move forward. (This is the opinion of someone who's lived here almost 10 years and whose family has had a business here for over 50 years.) Generally, the people who are capable of building the community don't stay. Those that stay don't have the numbers to accomplish much given the apathy and nitwits they're up against.
Dude, I think your so full of yourself you only read what you want to hear. When I said "they are totally disregarding my voice" I used the singular because as I said I did not want to speak for anyone else. This is solely my view. As for your moving all I can say is God bless you, I hope you find a community with like minded people as yourself.
Quote from: Bear on November 25, 2008, 07:58:14 PM
"Sal was making some off color comments about my wife at the Halloween party I found out later. As far as I'm concerned they are trailerpark trash."
Bonster you used the above quote but did not name the person who made it or the person
they are speaking of. Please explain for us, and name the parties involved.
page 53
(holy crap!)
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 09:50:16 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 05:15:46 PM
No OPS, it may not make it O'Connor's fault. But it does make him a liar.
And Thor, so you're upset that Sal and Liz disregarded your voice. What kind of childish tantrum are you having? Do you really think your permission is needed before the city, a current or prospective business or home owner, undertakes a project?
The comments on this thread, at least most of them, make me embarrassed to be a resident of Berwyn. I used to defend Berwyn as being unfairly maligned. Now I'm in the position of being an apologist for the community. And guess what? I'm not going to do it. I used to blame the city's various administrations for Berwyn's lack of progress and respect. I now realize I was mistaken.
ESAD- I am not having a "childish tantrum" I am trying to answer FedUps question which he addressed to me, not you. That is the reason I gave MY OPINION and MY FEELINGS, if you don't like them or have a problem with the too bad. I am also glad you now somehow have seen the light but quite frankly I have never asked you to aplogize for me and I doubt anyone in this community has either. If you now feel disdain for Berwyn then you know what you can do,,,,,,,,you have options
"My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice. . ." Ring a bell, Thor? Well, isn't that too bad. Yes, you have a right to be heard and, within the somewhat flexible parameters of OPS, post your feelings/opinions. You do not, however, have a right to get your way.
This is a forum where people can post a response to any other comments. You want a private chat with someone, IM them. Otherwise, any comments you post are fair game.
If by seeing the light you mean I've come to realize (some of) the people who live here are a big part of the problem, you are correct, and a case in point. As for leaving, it's an option I intend to exercise (sooner rather than later), as I have little hope that Berwyn can ever move forward. (This is the opinion of someone who's lived here almost 10 years and whose family has had a business here for over 50 years.) Generally, the people who are capable of building the community don't stay. Those that stay don't have the numbers to accomplish much given the apathy and nitwits they're up against.
Dude, I think your so full of yourself you only read what you want to hear. When I said "they are totally disregarding my voice" I used the singular because as I said I did not want to speak for anyone else. This is solely my view. As for your moving all I can say is God bless you, I hope you find a community with like minded people as yourself.
Not speakiing for anyone else? Here's the whole sentence you posted - "My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice, as well as the communities in general as this location not being appropriate." That seems to cover the singular and the plural. And "totally disregarding my voice" isn't just a view, it's a complaint. It's like saying "I didn't get want I wanted". If that's not want you intended to say, fine. Reword it and post again.
As for the "community in general", I have yet to hear from them. There was a small, vocal group at O'Connor's rally, and there is but a handful of people actively posting on this thread. We would have heard from the "community in general" had the referendum been on the recent ballot, but it didn't, and as of now the majority of Berwyn's residents have yet to be heard from (I'd suggest our elected officials release info on the pro/con correspondence they've received from constituents, but I don't think any numbers provided could be trusted).
Terri, the address of the leased space is 3245 Grove Ave. The suite was on the 1st floor.
I had heard, there was not a lease signed and rent was not yet paid?
Also heard the same as Bear and others, The BUONAURO couple had had conversations with OC,
regarding the opening of the clinic. He then later denied/lied he knew anything about it, at least
that's what he was as accused of. The Buonauro's were more pissed at him for throwing them under
the bus and denying that he knew nothing. Isn't OC a neighbor of the Buonauros also?
I don't know the Buonauros, but My own opinion is, now it has become a personal vendetta against OC.
Quote from: ESAD on November 26, 2008, 06:27:24 AM
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 09:50:16 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 05:15:46 PM
No OPS, it may not make it O'Connor's fault. But it does make him a liar.
And Thor, so you're upset that Sal and Liz disregarded your voice. What kind of childish tantrum are you having? Do you really think your permission is needed before the city, a current or prospective business or home owner, undertakes a project?
The comments on this thread, at least most of them, make me embarrassed to be a resident of Berwyn. I used to defend Berwyn as being unfairly maligned. Now I'm in the position of being an apologist for the community. And guess what? I'm not going to do it. I used to blame the city's various administrations for Berwyn's lack of progress and respect. I now realize I was mistaken.
ESAD- I am not having a "childish tantrum" I am trying to answer FedUps question which he addressed to me, not you. That is the reason I gave MY OPINION and MY FEELINGS, if you don't like them or have a problem with the too bad. I am also glad you now somehow have seen the light but quite frankly I have never asked you to aplogize for me and I doubt anyone in this community has either. If you now feel disdain for Berwyn then you know what you can do,,,,,,,,you have options
"My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice. . ." Ring a bell, Thor? Well, isn't that too bad. Yes, you have a right to be heard and, within the somewhat flexible parameters of OPS, post your feelings/opinions. You do not, however, have a right to get your way.
This is a forum where people can post a response to any other comments. You want a private chat with someone, IM them. Otherwise, any comments you post are fair game.
If by seeing the light you mean I've come to realize (some of) the people who live here are a big part of the problem, you are correct, and a case in point. As for leaving, it's an option I intend to exercise (sooner rather than later), as I have little hope that Berwyn can ever move forward. (This is the opinion of someone who's lived here almost 10 years and whose family has had a business here for over 50 years.) Generally, the people who are capable of building the community don't stay. Those that stay don't have the numbers to accomplish much given the apathy and nitwits they're up against.
Dude, I think your so full of yourself you only read what you want to hear. When I said "they are totally disregarding my voice" I used the singular because as I said I did not want to speak for anyone else. This is solely my view. As for your moving all I can say is God bless you, I hope you find a community with like minded people as yourself.
Not speakiing for anyone else? Here's the whole sentence you posted - "My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice, as well as the communities in general as this location not being appropriate." That seems to cover the singular and the plural. And "totally disregarding my voice" isn't just a view, it's a complaint. It's like saying "I didn't get want I wanted". If that's not want you intended to say, fine. Reword it and post again.
As for the "community in general", I have yet to hear from them. There was a small, vocal group at O'Connor's rally, and there is but a handful of people actively posting on this thread. We would have heard from the "community in general" had the referendum been on the recent ballot, but it didn't, and as of now the majority of Berwyn's residents have yet to be heard from (I'd suggest our elected officials release info on the pro/con correspondence they've received from constituents, but I don't think any numbers provided could be trusted).
Dude I am not going to repost anything I have said repeatedly that I am speaking for myself. If you cannot understand or I did not make myself clear enough too bad. The small vocal group that you mention are the people that live around the Depot. I wouldn't expect someone who lives near Roosevelt Rd to be so concerned, but who knows. Anyway since you will be moving real soon, what do you care?
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on November 25, 2008, 08:35:46 PM
... But, can they, themselves sue using the ADA angle? It would seem to me that a federal agency would have to be the entity filing the lawsuit regarding their perceived violation of the ADA -- if there were grounds to do so. Last I heard, the BBC people are a private business and not affiliated with any such agency. Someone, help me understand why they can even drag the ADA into this clusterf/k? Do they get federal money to operate this clinic? ....
Apatriot posted a good link on this. It looks like there have been previous lawsuits very similar to this using ADA and involving methadone clinics:
Quote from: apatriot on November 24, 2008, 10:27:50 AM
A similar case and how it turned out:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3898/is_200212/ai_n9163247
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on November 26, 2008, 07:03:17 AM
Terri, the address of the leased space is 3245 Grove Ave. The suite was on the 1st floor.
I had heard, there was not a lease signed and rent was not yet paid?
Also heard the same as Bear and others, The BUONAURO couple had had conversations with OC,
regarding the opening of the clinic. He then later denied/lied he knew anything about it, at least
that's what he was as accused of. The Buonauro's were more pissed at him for throwing them under
the bus and denying that he knew nothing. Isn't OC a neighbor of the Buonauros also?
I don't know the Buonauros, but My own opinion is, now it has become a personal vendetta against OC.
FedUp claims a lease was signed, I wondered if it was at another site because I was also told there was
not a lease signed for the office space at 3245 Grove.
A personal vendetta against OC? More like a vendetta against the entire city and its residents. The attorneys will sort out fact from fiction at our expense.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-berwyn-methadone-26nov26,0,2580340.story
Two sue Berwyn for rejecting methadone clinic
By Joseph Ruzich | Special to the Tribune
November 26, 2008
Four months after Berwyn officials rejected a methadone clinic, the center's owners sued the city, seeking a business license and $1 million in punitive damages.
The civil rights suit, filed by Berwyn residents Elizabeth Buonauro and Sal Sottile, owners of the Bobby Buonauro Clinic in Evanston, alleges that Berwyn has violated the Americans with Disabilities Act and is discriminating against people with addictions, who are considered disabled under federal law.
The city had originally voted 4-2 in favor of the clinic, planned for 3242 Grove Ave. in the Depot District, a downtown area that officials hope can attract businesses.
But in July, Mayor Michael O'Connor, who opposes the clinic, led hundreds of residents in a protest in a parking lot across from the clinic's planned site. The residents feared that the clinic would bring drug addicts and crime to the neighborhood.
A week later, aldermen changed their vote and unanimously rejected the clinic.
Attorney Robert Carson of Gould & Ratner in Chicago, who is representing the clinic's owners in the lawsuit filed Friday, said the law recognizes an addiction as a disability, giving people with addictions protections under the law. Methadone, a regulated drug usually taken in liquid form, is required by law to be administered by a health-care professional. Those who take the opiate to lessen the pain of withdrawing from heroin and other addictive drugs must visit the clinic daily.
"For the city to decide that they are not going to permit a substance-abuse clinic to open, based on their perception of what they think disabled people are like, is unlawful," Carson said. "The people are acting out of ignorance and fear. When aldermen vote based on people's fears, it becomes discrimination and is a violation of the act."
O'Connor said he opposes a substance-abuse clinic in Berwyn, but that the clinic was denied because of a zoning law.
"We are trying to attract more retail businesses to the Depot District, not medical offices," he said. "There is no location in Berwyn for this type of business. This is the city of homes. There isn't any location in this community that isn't a short distance from where someone lives."
O'Connor said money is not an issue and that the city will fight the lawsuit.
"We have great plans for the district. This business is not compatible for the future of our business district," he said.
"O'Connor said money is not an issue and the city will fight the lawsuit".
I'm against the clinic and yes the city HAS to fight the lawsuit. That being said the city needs to stop making decisions that will cost up HUGE in the longrun. We are not some small podunk town. On an issue like this before anyone starts doing anything get competent legal advice about what can and can't be done and follow it.
As for money not being an issue the city is already looking for another 5% increase in property tax to cover the shortfall in the budget for next year. I just got hit with an additional $250 on this year's property tax bill because of the increase this year. The economy is not good, home values are down big time and most people can only take so much.
So how do you know what legally hols up in court?
2 reasons
1- I watch Boston Legal
2- Went to the same school as Skryd ..... ;D
"O'Connor said money is not an issue"...
It's not an issue, Bear. Votes are! :D
Quote from: Thor on November 26, 2008, 07:25:37 AM
Quote from: ESAD on November 26, 2008, 06:27:24 AM
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 09:50:16 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 05:15:46 PM
No OPS, it may not make it O'Connor's fault. But it does make him a liar.
And Thor, so you're upset that Sal and Liz disregarded your voice. What kind of childish tantrum are you having? Do you really think your permission is needed before the city, a current or prospective business or home owner, undertakes a project?
The comments on this thread, at least most of them, make me embarrassed to be a resident of Berwyn. I used to defend Berwyn as being unfairly maligned. Now I'm in the position of being an apologist for the community. And guess what? I'm not going to do it. I used to blame the city's various administrations for Berwyn's lack of progress and respect. I now realize I was mistaken.
ESAD- I am not having a "childish tantrum" I am trying to answer FedUps question which he addressed to me, not you. That is the reason I gave MY OPINION and MY FEELINGS, if you don't like them or have a problem with the too bad. I am also glad you now somehow have seen the light but quite frankly I have never asked you to aplogize for me and I doubt anyone in this community has either. If you now feel disdain for Berwyn then you know what you can do,,,,,,,,you have options
"My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice. . ." Ring a bell, Thor? Well, isn't that too bad. Yes, you have a right to be heard and, within the somewhat flexible parameters of OPS, post your feelings/opinions. You do not, however, have a right to get your way.
This is a forum where people can post a response to any other comments. You want a private chat with someone, IM them. Otherwise, any comments you post are fair game.
If by seeing the light you mean I've come to realize (some of) the people who live here are a big part of the problem, you are correct, and a case in point. As for leaving, it's an option I intend to exercise (sooner rather than later), as I have little hope that Berwyn can ever move forward. (This is the opinion of someone who's lived here almost 10 years and whose family has had a business here for over 50 years.) Generally, the people who are capable of building the community don't stay. Those that stay don't have the numbers to accomplish much given the apathy and nitwits they're up against.
Dude, I think your so full of yourself you only read what you want to hear. When I said "they are totally disregarding my voice" I used the singular because as I said I did not want to speak for anyone else. This is solely my view. As for your moving all I can say is God bless you, I hope you find a community with like minded people as yourself.
Not speakiing for anyone else? Here's the whole sentence you posted - "My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice, as well as the communities in general as this location not being appropriate." That seems to cover the singular and the plural. And "totally disregarding my voice" isn't just a view, it's a complaint. It's like saying "I didn't get want I wanted". If that's not want you intended to say, fine. Reword it and post again.
As for the "community in general", I have yet to hear from them. There was a small, vocal group at O'Connor's rally, and there is but a handful of people actively posting on this thread. We would have heard from the "community in general" had the referendum been on the recent ballot, but it didn't, and as of now the majority of Berwyn's residents have yet to be heard from (I'd suggest our elected officials release info on the pro/con correspondence they've received from constituents, but I don't think any numbers provided could be trusted).
Dude I am not going to repost anything I have said repeatedly that I am speaking for myself. If you cannot understand or I did not make myself clear enough too bad. The small vocal group that you mention are the people that live around the Depot. I wouldn't expect someone who lives near Roosevelt Rd to be so concerned, but who knows. Anyway since you will be moving real soon, what do you care?
Gee, I didn't know I live near Roosevelt Rd. I thought I lived 2 blocks south of the BNSF. Thanks for the info. Now, if you'd give me my new address I'll know where I'm sleeping tonight.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I'd be moving real soon. I said sooner rather than later. It's a subtle difference, but an important one.
While I'm on the subject, I didn't say I have disdain for Berwyn. I said I'm embarrassed to be a resident. The difference here is not so subtle.
Quote from: ESAD on November 26, 2008, 09:10:31 AM
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I'd be moving real soon. I said sooner rather than later.
Riverside is a nice community, and close by.
Quote from: FedUp on November 25, 2008, 04:17:39 PM
O.K. so lets look at the events as they occurred.
October / 06 Bounauro clinic decides to open another clinic. They do their due diligence and decide the near west suburbs is where their best fit lies. They begin a search with realtors in various suburbs such as Lyons, Brookfield, McCook, Summit, Stickney, and BERWYN.
September / 07 Bounauros are attending Berwyn Oktoberfest and meet up with the Mayor. In a conversation with him they told him what they were doing and how hard it has been to find a location that fits their needs (e.g square footage etc..) At this time the Mayor knows them and knows exactly what they do.
January / 08 Bounauros find a space and lo and behold it is on Grove Ave. The Buonauros meet Debi Suchy and inquire about a business license. Ms. Suchy informs them that in order to get a license they need to sign a lease. So they sign a lease begin paying rent and start plans to remodel.
Soon after signing the lease they go for their license. This is when the City tells them that they need to go to ZBA (no reason to, med office in a med building) cost $900.00. Approved at ZBA. Go to city council. Council by law cannot deny and don't as we all know how the vote went.
I feel the 4 yes votes at council was the right thing to do. They legally cannot deny.
As to why the Bounauro Clinic after the lynch mob assembly on Grove immediately pull out is I believe because they had already spent a number of thousands of dollars on what they believed to be a bona fide move.
To show contempt for these people is wrong. They did everything above board.
To blame the 4 alderman is also wrong. This should have and could have been handled so as none of this would have happened as it did.
Sal and Liz are good professional people. To call them trailer trash or insinuate a dependence on methadone is out of line.
IMO any and all grievances concerning this debacle should start at the top of our elected officials and not directed at Sal or Liz.
Ah, you missed something there FedUp. Actually, a few things.
1. Debbie Suchy denied their request for a business license. That's why they had to go to the zba.
2. The zba rendered an ADVISORY (non binding) opinion, which City Council was free to accept or reject. City Council was NOT legally bound by the zba's opinion.
3. The measure (zoning variance) FIRST went before City Council and was DENIED.
4. The matter then went before City Council a second time, and passed, with TWO aldermen ABSENT. (4-2 vote).
5. The rally was held before the matter went before city council a third time, and this time it was rejected by the same exact vote it was rejected the first time. (4-4 with the Mayor breaking the tie).
6. You're right, the whole matter could have been avoided if the Methadone Four would have INITIALLY voted NO. And kept their mouths shut.
7. The lease you speak of wouldn't happen to be of the contingent variety, would it? ;)
8. Any bonehead who believes all they need for a business license is a signed lease (and a contingent one at that) deserves his/her fate. if the Buonauro's spent THOUSANDS of dollars in this venture, surely they could have spent a bit more for a competent attorney to advise them, couldn't they?
9. Outside of the Buonauro's, who else was present for this purported conversation with OC at Oktoberfest?
10. When did the Buonauro's EVER demonstrate a COMMUNITY NEED (in Berwyn) for this type of business at this location?
11. Why 3245 Grove?
12. If the Buonauro's began paying rent and remodeling, is someone now liable for the lease termination? Is the building owner suing the Buonauro's and/or the City?
Quote from: FedUp on November 26, 2008, 08:14:30 AM
So how do you know what legally hols up in court?
2 reasons
1- I watch Boston Legal
2- Went to the same school as Skryd ..... ;D
Yes, it's pretty obvious what your basis of knowledge is. ;)
Quote from: ESAD on November 26, 2008, 09:10:31 AM
Quote from: Thor on November 26, 2008, 07:25:37 AM
Quote from: ESAD on November 26, 2008, 06:27:24 AM
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 09:50:16 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 05:15:46 PM
No OPS, it may not make it O'Connor's fault. But it does make him a liar.
And Thor, so you're upset that Sal and Liz disregarded your voice. What kind of childish tantrum are you having? Do you really think your permission is needed before the city, a current or prospective business or home owner, undertakes a project?
The comments on this thread, at least most of them, make me embarrassed to be a resident of Berwyn. I used to defend Berwyn as being unfairly maligned. Now I'm in the position of being an apologist for the community. And guess what? I'm not going to do it. I used to blame the city's various administrations for Berwyn's lack of progress and respect. I now realize I was mistaken.
ESAD- I am not having a "childish tantrum" I am trying to answer FedUps question which he addressed to me, not you. That is the reason I gave MY OPINION and MY FEELINGS, if you don't like them or have a problem with the too bad. I am also glad you now somehow have seen the light but quite frankly I have never asked you to aplogize for me and I doubt anyone in this community has either. If you now feel disdain for Berwyn then you know what you can do,,,,,,,,you have options
"My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice. . ." Ring a bell, Thor? Well, isn't that too bad. Yes, you have a right to be heard and, within the somewhat flexible parameters of OPS, post your feelings/opinions. You do not, however, have a right to get your way.
This is a forum where people can post a response to any other comments. You want a private chat with someone, IM them. Otherwise, any comments you post are fair game.
If by seeing the light you mean I've come to realize (some of) the people who live here are a big part of the problem, you are correct, and a case in point. As for leaving, it's an option I intend to exercise (sooner rather than later), as I have little hope that Berwyn can ever move forward. (This is the opinion of someone who's lived here almost 10 years and whose family has had a business here for over 50 years.) Generally, the people who are capable of building the community don't stay. Those that stay don't have the numbers to accomplish much given the apathy and nitwits they're up against.
Dude, I think your so full of yourself you only read what you want to hear. When I said "they are totally disregarding my voice" I used the singular because as I said I did not want to speak for anyone else. This is solely my view. As for your moving all I can say is God bless you, I hope you find a community with like minded people as yourself.
Not speakiing for anyone else? Here's the whole sentence you posted - "My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice, as well as the communities in general as this location not being appropriate." That seems to cover the singular and the plural. And "totally disregarding my voice" isn't just a view, it's a complaint. It's like saying "I didn't get want I wanted". If that's not want you intended to say, fine. Reword it and post again.
As for the "community in general", I have yet to hear from them. There was a small, vocal group at O'Connor's rally, and there is but a handful of people actively posting on this thread. We would have heard from the "community in general" had the referendum been on the recent ballot, but it didn't, and as of now the majority of Berwyn's residents have yet to be heard from (I'd suggest our elected officials release info on the pro/con correspondence they've received from constituents, but I don't think any numbers provided could be trusted).
Dude I am not going to repost anything I have said repeatedly that I am speaking for myself. If you cannot understand or I did not make myself clear enough too bad. The small vocal group that you mention are the people that live around the Depot. I wouldn't expect someone who lives near Roosevelt Rd to be so concerned, but who knows. Anyway since you will be moving real soon, what do you care?
Gee, I didn't know I live near Roosevelt Rd. I thought I lived 2 blocks south of the BNSF. Thanks for the info. Now, if you'd give me my new address I'll know where I'm sleeping tonight.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I'd be moving real soon. I said sooner rather than later. It's a subtle difference, but an important one.
While I'm on the subject, I didn't say I have disdain for Berwyn. I said I'm embarrassed to be a resident. The difference here is not so subtle.
I see your all about playing with words, find another player offtopic
you're
Quote from: SILK on November 26, 2008, 11:08:07 AM
Quote from: ESAD on November 26, 2008, 09:10:31 AM
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I'd be moving real soon. I said sooner rather than later.
Riverside is a nice community, and close by.
Yes, it is. My family moved to Riverside just before I started 5th grade and I spent about 15 years there. Now there seems to be too many former Oak Parkers living in Riverside. Instead of the Frank Lloyd Wright Society interfering in things, it's the Olmstead Society that has its nose in all sorts of stuff. You might remember the bruhaha over planting flowers in certain areas rather than leaving them green, which to some is what Fred would want were he among us. But we digress.
Quote from: Thor on November 26, 2008, 12:01:33 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 26, 2008, 09:10:31 AM
Quote from: Thor on November 26, 2008, 07:25:37 AM
Quote from: ESAD on November 26, 2008, 06:27:24 AM
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 09:50:16 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 09:35:17 PM
Quote from: Thor on November 25, 2008, 08:16:34 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 25, 2008, 05:15:46 PM
No OPS, it may not make it O'Connor's fault. But it does make him a liar.
And Thor, so you're upset that Sal and Liz disregarded your voice. What kind of childish tantrum are you having? Do you really think your permission is needed before the city, a current or prospective business or home owner, undertakes a project?
The comments on this thread, at least most of them, make me embarrassed to be a resident of Berwyn. I used to defend Berwyn as being unfairly maligned. Now I'm in the position of being an apologist for the community. And guess what? I'm not going to do it. I used to blame the city's various administrations for Berwyn's lack of progress and respect. I now realize I was mistaken.
ESAD- I am not having a "childish tantrum" I am trying to answer FedUps question which he addressed to me, not you. That is the reason I gave MY OPINION and MY FEELINGS, if you don't like them or have a problem with the too bad. I am also glad you now somehow have seen the light but quite frankly I have never asked you to aplogize for me and I doubt anyone in this community has either. If you now feel disdain for Berwyn then you know what you can do,,,,,,,,you have options
"My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice. . ." Ring a bell, Thor? Well, isn't that too bad. Yes, you have a right to be heard and, within the somewhat flexible parameters of OPS, post your feelings/opinions. You do not, however, have a right to get your way.
This is a forum where people can post a response to any other comments. You want a private chat with someone, IM them. Otherwise, any comments you post are fair game.
If by seeing the light you mean I've come to realize (some of) the people who live here are a big part of the problem, you are correct, and a case in point. As for leaving, it's an option I intend to exercise (sooner rather than later), as I have little hope that Berwyn can ever move forward. (This is the opinion of someone who's lived here almost 10 years and whose family has had a business here for over 50 years.) Generally, the people who are capable of building the community don't stay. Those that stay don't have the numbers to accomplish much given the apathy and nitwits they're up against.
Dude, I think your so full of yourself you only read what you want to hear. When I said "they are totally disregarding my voice" I used the singular because as I said I did not want to speak for anyone else. This is solely my view. As for your moving all I can say is God bless you, I hope you find a community with like minded people as yourself.
Not speakiing for anyone else? Here's the whole sentence you posted - "My biggest problem with the Buonauros is that they are totally disregarding my voice, as well as the communities in general as this location not being appropriate." That seems to cover the singular and the plural. And "totally disregarding my voice" isn't just a view, it's a complaint. It's like saying "I didn't get want I wanted". If that's not want you intended to say, fine. Reword it and post again.
As for the "community in general", I have yet to hear from them. There was a small, vocal group at O'Connor's rally, and there is but a handful of people actively posting on this thread. We would have heard from the "community in general" had the referendum been on the recent ballot, but it didn't, and as of now the majority of Berwyn's residents have yet to be heard from (I'd suggest our elected officials release info on the pro/con correspondence they've received from constituents, but I don't think any numbers provided could be trusted).
Dude I am not going to repost anything I have said repeatedly that I am speaking for myself. If you cannot understand or I did not make myself clear enough too bad. The small vocal group that you mention are the people that live around the Depot. I wouldn't expect someone who lives near Roosevelt Rd to be so concerned, but who knows. Anyway since you will be moving real soon, what do you care?
Gee, I didn't know I live near Roosevelt Rd. I thought I lived 2 blocks south of the BNSF. Thanks for the info. Now, if you'd give me my new address I'll know where I'm sleeping tonight.
Don't put words in my mouth. I didn't say I'd be moving real soon. I said sooner rather than later. It's a subtle difference, but an important one.
While I'm on the subject, I didn't say I have disdain for Berwyn. I said I'm embarrassed to be a resident. The difference here is not so subtle.
I see your all about playing with words, find another player offtopic
Yes, words are pesky little devils. Ya gotta pick the right ones, put 'em in the right order. . .
We having fun yet?
Quote from: ESAD on November 26, 2008, 02:18:40 PM
Yes, it is. My family moved to Riverside just before I started 5th grade and I spent about 15 years there.
I know.
Thor,
everyday business foundations are laid at social events be it a party, restaurant, bar, golf course, or even a street fair. Now I'm not saying any binding agreement was made by any means. What I am saying is that after their conversation the mayor knew exactly who they were and what the clinic was all about. If nothing else this makes OC a liar claiming he never knew that they dispensed methadone. On top of which they were absolutely given the impression that there would be no problem obtaining a license.
So which one is it Fed Up?
Did they have a valid lease, or didn't they?
And please don't tell me the Buonauro's thought OC had the unilateral power to grant a business license, if in fact what they claim about OC is true.
Quote from: FedUp on November 26, 2008, 11:30:35 PM
Thor,
everyday business foundations are laid at social events be it a party, restaurant, bar, golf course, or even a street fair. Now I'm not saying any binding agreement was made by any means. What I am saying is that after their conversation the mayor knew exactly who they were and what the clinic was all about. If nothing else this makes OC a liar claiming he never knew that they dispensed methadone. On top of which they were absolutely given the impression that there would be no problem obtaining a license.
What evidence do you have that this chance meeting actually occurred? How do you know it did occur versus a story that certain parties are circulating to make themselves look good and O'Connor look bad?
Do you have any evidence that this discussion even occurred?
Ted
Quote from: SILK on November 26, 2008, 09:49:15 PM
Quote from: ESAD on November 26, 2008, 02:18:40 PM
Yes, it is. My family moved to Riverside just before I started 5th grade and I spent about 15 years there.
I know.
You're a member of a not very exclusive group.
I know that also.
Quote from: SILK on November 27, 2008, 12:14:03 AM
So which one is it Fed Up?
Did they have a valid lease, or didn't they?
And please don't tell me the Buonauro's thought OC had the unilateral power to grant a business license, if in fact what they claim about OC is true.
They absolutely had a valid lease. Signed in Jan/08.
Quote from: Ted on November 27, 2008, 07:32:25 AM
Quote from: FedUp on November 26, 2008, 11:30:35 PM
Thor,
everyday business foundations are laid at social events be it a party, restaurant, bar, golf course, or even a street fair. Now I'm not saying any binding agreement was made by any means. What I am saying is that after their conversation the mayor knew exactly who they were and what the clinic was all about. If nothing else this makes OC a liar claiming he never knew that they dispensed methadone. On top of which they were absolutely given the impression that there would be no problem obtaining a license.
What evidence do you have that this chance meeting actually occurred? How do you know it did occur versus a story that certain parties are circulating to make themselves look good and O'Connor look bad?
Do you have any evidence that this discussion even occurred?
Ted
What evidence do you have that it didn't?
Quote from: FedUp on November 27, 2008, 09:08:12 AM
Quote from: Ted on November 27, 2008, 07:32:25 AM
Quote from: FedUp on November 26, 2008, 11:30:35 PM
Thor,
everyday business foundations are laid at social events be it a party, restaurant, bar, golf course, or even a street fair. Now I'm not saying any binding agreement was made by any means. What I am saying is that after their conversation the mayor knew exactly who they were and what the clinic was all about. If nothing else this makes OC a liar claiming he never knew that they dispensed methadone. On top of which they were absolutely given the impression that there would be no problem obtaining a license.
What evidence do you have that this chance meeting actually occurred? How do you know it did occur versus a story that certain parties are circulating to make themselves look good and O'Connor look bad?
Do you have any evidence that this discussion even occurred?
Ted
What evidence do you have that it didn't?
Dude, you're the anonymous troll spreading unsubstantiated rumors, not me.
It's the rumor monger who has to provide the proof of their claim, not the other way around.
Again, what evidence do you have that such a meeting occurred betwen O'Connor and the methadone clinic owners?
Why should we believe your rumors? What evidence do you have that would make you or your rumors credible?
Ted
Quote from: Ted on November 27, 2008, 09:12:29 AM
Quote from: FedUp on November 27, 2008, 09:08:12 AM
Quote from: Ted on November 27, 2008, 07:32:25 AM
Quote from: FedUp on November 26, 2008, 11:30:35 PM
Thor,
everyday business foundations are laid at social events be it a party, restaurant, bar, golf course, or even a street fair. Now I'm not saying any binding agreement was made by any means. What I am saying is that after their conversation the mayor knew exactly who they were and what the clinic was all about. If nothing else this makes OC a liar claiming he never knew that they dispensed methadone. On top of which they were absolutely given the impression that there would be no problem obtaining a license.
What evidence do you have that this chance meeting actually occurred? How do you know it did occur versus a story that certain parties are circulating to make themselves look good and O'Connor look bad?
Do you have any evidence that this discussion even occurred?
Ted
What evidence do you have that it didn't?
Dude, you're the anonymous troll spreading unsubstantiated rumors, not me.
It's the rumor moger who has to provide the proof, not the other way around.
Ted
You're right all I can say is what I believe to be.
Quote from: FedUp on November 27, 2008, 09:08:12 AM
Quote from: Ted on November 27, 2008, 07:32:25 AM
Quote from: FedUp on November 26, 2008, 11:30:35 PM
Thor,
everyday business foundations are laid at social events be it a party, restaurant, bar, golf course, or even a street fair. Now I'm not saying any binding agreement was made by any means. What I am saying is that after their conversation the mayor knew exactly who they were and what the clinic was all about. If nothing else this makes OC a liar claiming he never knew that they dispensed methadone. On top of which they were absolutely given the impression that there would be no problem obtaining a license.
What evidence do you have that this chance meeting actually occurred? How do you know it did occur versus a story that certain parties are circulating to make themselves look good and O'Connor look bad?
Do you have any evidence that this discussion even occurred?
Ted
What evidence do you have that it didn't?
It's the OTHER way around pal.
We start from a position of NO EVIDENCE at all.
Then you come on this site and claim XYZ (conversation w/OC) occurred, which necessitates an offer of proof on your part.
To now ask what evidence there is that the conversation DID NOT occur is disingenious, at best.
You can't prove a double negative.
Nice try though. Old BRDO tactic?
Quote from: FedUp on November 27, 2008, 09:05:41 AM
Quote from: SILK on November 27, 2008, 12:14:03 AM
So which one is it Fed Up?
Did they have a valid lease, or didn't they?
And please don't tell me the Buonauro's thought OC had the unilateral power to grant a business license, if in fact what they claim about OC is true.
They absolutely had a valid lease. Signed in Jan/08.
So what does
THIS mean?
Quote from: FedUp on November 26, 2008, 11:30:35 PM
Now I'm not saying any binding agreement was made by any means.
A lease is a BINDING AGREEMENT, isn't it?
And if there is a lease, why aren't the Buonauro's suing the building owner for breach?
And how would YOU know there is a lease and when it was signed?
And if you do, please also tell us whether or not it was
CONTINGENT.
Quote from: FedUp on November 27, 2008, 09:14:07 AM
Quote from: Ted on November 27, 2008, 09:12:29 AM
Quote from: FedUp on November 27, 2008, 09:08:12 AM
Quote from: Ted on November 27, 2008, 07:32:25 AM
Quote from: FedUp on November 26, 2008, 11:30:35 PM
Thor,
everyday business foundations are laid at social events be it a party, restaurant, bar, golf course, or even a street fair. Now I'm not saying any binding agreement was made by any means. What I am saying is that after their conversation the mayor knew exactly who they were and what the clinic was all about. If nothing else this makes OC a liar claiming he never knew that they dispensed methadone. On top of which they were absolutely given the impression that there would be no problem obtaining a license.
What evidence do you have that this chance meeting actually occurred? How do you know it did occur versus a story that certain parties are circulating to make themselves look good and O'Connor look bad?
Do you have any evidence that this discussion even occurred?
Ted
What evidence do you have that it didn't?
Dude, you're the anonymous troll spreading unsubstantiated rumors, not me.
It's the rumor moger who has to provide the proof, not the other way around.
Ted
You're right all I can say is what I believe to be.
So you're basically a full of crap troller?
I come on this board and try to give another side of the story. I find that when i need to know something the best way to find the info is to ask the parties involved. So I knocked on the Bounauros door and I asked. If me telling their side of the story makes me a Troll then so be it. Open your mind there are ALWAYS 2 sides to everything.
And don't give me the typical BRDO/DCOB crap because I voted for the guy in there now.
SILK,
Tone down the attack. Discuss the issue, don't go calling names.
Gobble Gobble
Brian,
Ted called him a troll.
Quote from: Ted on November 27, 2008, 09:12:29 AM
Dude, you're the anonymous troll spreading unsubstantiated rumors, not me.
I simply concurred.
Quote from: FedUp on November 27, 2008, 10:16:51 AM
I come on this board and try to give another side of the story.
bs. You come on here to attack OC.
Plain and simple.
QuoteI find that when i need to know something the best way to find the info is to ask the parties involved.
Right.
So why not go down a few blocks and knock on OC's door to get his side of the story?
QuoteIf me telling their side of the story makes me a Troll then so be it. Open your mind there are ALWAYS 2 sides to everything.
Right.
Time for you to consider the other side of the story as well.
QuoteAnd don't give me the typical BRDO/DCOB crap because I voted for the guy in there now.
Right.
And I'm the Pope of Rome.
I knocked on OC's door in 05. Believed what he said and have been miserably disappointed ever since. WON'T DO THAT AGAIN.
Sure you did.
And pigs fly, also.
p.s. You really want us to believe that you knocked on a MAYORAL CANDIDATE'S door? Did you also have tea and crumpets?
And I'm the Pope of Rome.
Pontiff Silk? It actually has a ring to it. ;D
Yes.
Except I'm not Catholic.
Quote from: SILK on November 27, 2008, 10:41:19 AM
Sure you did.
And pigs fly, also.
p.s. You really want us to believe that you knocked on a MAYORAL CANDIDATE'S door? Did you also have tea and crumpets?
Who the hell do you think this man is? I snuck past the secret service guys, crawlled through a basement window, and then pinned him down in the stairwell until he answered my questions.
Lets remember what he said during his campaign.
I will give the city back to the Citizens.
My door will always be open.
Yes I am here to tell you that I took him literally and knocked on his door.
If you really want to know what is going on ASK.
Quote from: FedUp on November 27, 2008, 11:11:14 AM
Who the hell do you think this man is? I snuck past the secret service guys, crawlled through a basement window, and then pinned him down in the stairwell until he answered my questions.
The focus was on YOU, not him. And if YOU came to MY door, we'd have problems.
QuoteLets remember what he said during his campaign.
I will give the city back to the Citizens.
Right.
Back to the citizens.
As opposed to the city unions, business owners, and various special interest groups, to name a few....
QuoteMy door will always be open.
And you took that to mean the front door of his home?
Where do you think you are, Mayberry?
QuoteYes I am here to tell you that I took him literally and knocked on his door.
Pure bs.
QuoteIf you really want to know what is going on ASK.
Ask who?
My oh my Silk you really do have the market cornered on being obnoxious.
Damn right I knocked on his door. He's my neighbor.
Believe me there would not be any circumstance in the world that would make me knock on your door.
Smart choice.
KNOCK KNOCK
WHOS THERE?
LAND-SHARK ;D
For a cookie, can anyone tell me where that's from.
Quote from: SILK on November 27, 2008, 12:10:40 PM
Smart choice.
Your like a bug and someone needs to step on you.
Silk and FedUp.
Go have a happy thanksgiving. I'm tired of reading the back and forth bickering.
I don't give a rat's ass who started it.
Quote from: Clam Diver on November 27, 2008, 12:11:52 PM
KNOCK KNOCK
WHOS THERE?
LAND-SHARK ;D
For a cookie, can anyone tell me where that's from.
SNL. I prefer oatmeal raisin.
Crap - I'm just seeing this news because I'm on vacation. How disappointing that the owners of the clinic are moving forward with a lawsuit, although not unexpected. It will be interesting to see how the lawsuit progresses.
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that there should be some level of due diligence and research into how lawsuits of this nature proceed....in order to build the best possible defense. It is a federal lawsuit, so both the plaintiffs and defendant will need to meet specific criteria in order for a judgment to be rendered for....or against. I'm hoping the city law firm has some experience in this matter.
Someone had mentioned to me earlier (sorry, I honestly do not remember who it was) that for methadone clinic to sue under the provision of the ADA that the clinic itself had to follow a specific testing (of patients) to ensure that they remained drug-free while under the care of the clinic. The clinic also has to follow a strict methadone distribution policy to its patients, which may include that the methadone must be taken on site at the clinic by the patients. I'd be interested to know if anyone (including Ms. Buonauro) on the board can confirm this and whether or not their existing clinic in Evanston currently follows these policies.
It should be noted that methadone clinics have been successfully sued in civil cases for not following strict patient care and distribution policies. Of course, it seems obvious that clinics such as these are grossly mismanaged. See an example of such a situation here:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2007/09/05/government_methadone_clinic_settle_lawsuit_for_1_million/
The fact is that the prescription of methadone to treat drug addition (and now to alleviate pain) is growing rapidly in the US. Especially by privately owned, for-profit businesses. As are deaths related to abuse of methadone itself. This is all public knowledge and can be easily found online. As a result, lawsuits against these clinics (by patients, their families, and cities) have also started to increase. It appears that there is a real chance Berwyn will become part of this trend, whatever our individual opinions may be.
While the city lawyers go to work on this lawsuit, I would be most interested in hearing from our city leaders and the owners of the clinic on how they plan to monitor and address the issues (including parking, increased foot and auto traffic, loss of other businesses in that building) that would allegedly result from this clinic moving into the location on Grove. It would be nice - especially pre-election - to see some proactive communication on this. Maybe instead of a picket of the Evanston facility Ms. Buonauro can offer to take a group of concerned citizens on a tour of the Evanston facilities and help educate us on the level and quality of care provided by her business. Anything.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Quote from: Clam Diver on November 27, 2008, 10:51:02 AM
And I'm the Pope of Rome.
Pontiff Silk? It actually has a ring to it. ;D
No, more like Patriarch Silk.... :D ;D :D
"You can't prove a double negative."
Actually, it's a negative that can be impossible to prove. Double negatives are proven on a routine basis every day. offtopic
Quote from: Ted on November 26, 2008, 07:50:51 AM
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on November 25, 2008, 08:35:46 PM
... But, can they, themselves sue using the ADA angle? It would seem to me that a federal agency would have to be the entity filing the lawsuit regarding their perceived violation of the ADA -- if there were grounds to do so. Last I heard, the BBC people are a private business and not affiliated with any such agency. Someone, help me understand why they can even drag the ADA into this clusterf/k? Do they get federal money to operate this clinic? ....
Apatriot posted a good link on this. It looks like there have been previous lawsuits very similar to this using ADA and involving methadone clinics:
Quote from: apatriot on November 24, 2008, 10:27:50 AM
A similar case and how it turned out:
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3898/is_200212/ai_n9163247
Thanks, Ted. So much info/opinion on this my eyes were crossing trying to sift through and get a grip on situation at hand. Would sure like to see some finanacial info (balance sheet, statement of net worth, etc.) on the BBC and its owners.
"Thanks, Ted. So much info/opinion on this my eyes were crossing trying to sift through and get a grip on situation at hand. Would sure like to see some finanacial info (balance sheet, statement of net worth, etc.) on the BBC and its owners."
[/quote]
Just why is that information any of your business and how is it germaine to the issue?
Quote from: Vic0218 on November 27, 2008, 08:39:03 PM
Crap - I'm just seeing this news because I'm on vacation. How disappointing that the owners of the clinic are moving forward with a lawsuit, although not unexpected. It will be interesting to see how the lawsuit progresses.
Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that there should be some level of due diligence and research into how lawsuits of this nature proceed....in order to build the best possible defense. It is a federal lawsuit, so both the plaintiffs and defendant will need to meet specific criteria in order for a judgment to be rendered for....or against. I'm hoping the city law firm has some experience in this matter.
Someone had mentioned to me earlier (sorry, I honestly do not remember who it was) that for methadone clinic to sue under the provision of the ADA that the clinic itself had to follow a specific testing (of patients) to ensure that they remained drug-free while under the care of the clinic. The clinic also has to follow a strict methadone distribution policy to its patients, which may include that the methadone must be taken on site at the clinic by the patients. I'd be interested to know if anyone (including Ms. Buonauro) on the board can confirm this and whether or not their existing clinic in Evanston currently follows these policies.
It should be noted that methadone clinics have been successfully sued in civil cases for not following strict patient care and distribution policies. Of course, it seems obvious that clinics such as these are grossly mismanaged. See an example of such a situation here:
http://www.boston.com/news/local/maine/articles/2007/09/05/government_methadone_clinic_settle_lawsuit_for_1_million/
The fact is that the prescription of methadone to treat drug addition (and now to alleviate pain) is growing rapidly in the US. Especially by privately owned, for-profit businesses. As are deaths related to abuse of methadone itself. This is all public knowledge and can be easily found online. As a result, lawsuits against these clinics (by patients, their families, and cities) have also started to increase. It appears that there is a real chance Berwyn will become part of this trend, whatever our individual opinions may be.
While the city lawyers go to work on this lawsuit, I would be most interested in hearing from our city leaders and the owners of the clinic on how they plan to monitor and address the issues (including parking, increased foot and auto traffic, loss of other businesses in that building) that would allegedly result from this clinic moving into the location on Grove. It would be nice - especially pre-election - to see some proactive communication on this. Maybe instead of a picket of the Evanston facility Ms. Buonauro can offer to take a group of concerned citizens on a tour of the Evanston facilities and help educate us on the level and quality of care provided by her business. Anything.
Happy Thanksgiving.
Your suggestion of a clinic tour is probably the most reasonable thing I've seen posted on this thread since it was started. It's too bad it appeared after the lawsuit was filed. I'm surprised (this is sarcasm, if you must respond, please respond accordingly) that one of our city "leaders" (is it possible to choke on an online word?) didn't come up with it earlier.
Quote from: ESAD on November 28, 2008, 06:35:14 PM
I'm surprised (this is sarcasm, if you must respond, please respond accordingly) that one of our city "leaders" (is it possible to choke on an online word?) didn't come up with it earlier.
It's easy to choke on an online word, especially when it's that one, and used to describe what makes up our city council.
Vic0218 - I applaud you for your fairness in terms of the clinic. I, however, really don't need a tour because I don't want a methadone clinic in the same building where I take my kids to their doctor no matter how well mannered they seem or clean it is. As a parent I have to make decisions on behalf of my children and I don't want them around junkies - present or former.
They need to find another location!
Who is the supposed victim here ?
Actually, as long as it isn't a child, I don't care.
When times get tough, pigs get slaughtered. Let them find a location that doesn't created any potential risk/conflict, especially for kids...
Quote from: MRS. NORTHSIDER on November 28, 2008, 06:53:01 PM
Vic0218 - I applaud you for your fairness in terms of the clinic. I, however, really don't need a tour because I don't want a methadone clinic in the same building where I take my kids to their doctor no matter how well mannered they seem or clean it is. As a parent I have to make decisions on behalf of my children and I don't want them around junkies - present or former.
They need to find another location!
Warning: long diatribe ahead
My comments were not intended to be fair. Rather a 'prompt' to those involved (yes - those of you running for office and involved in the various political parties, as well as current and future business owners) that they must step up efforts to communicate and involve the members of the community in discussions, as painful as they may be and present a roadmap and vision for Berwyn. Even if it means a vision of status quo or moving backwards. Without it, there really is no possibility of any progress here. The clinic debacle is embarrassing on a number of levels. I still can't figure out if someone circumvented a process because of who they knew, if the process itself is broken or because it was a deliberate attempt by the aldermen and mayor to attract a new business.
At this point, I don't think it matters for this particular situation....although I personally have no faith that the powers that be will learn from this experience (IMHO). I would love to be wrong.
I have a long list of concerns about the location too - and my kids go to the pediatrician in the building as well and I am physically on that corner twice each morning...once to take my daughter to school and once to get on the train. And it is in the immediate vicinity of my home. I already have to deal with some not so great elements in that area - but I call BPD frequently and I make it my business to keep a close eye on the activity in that area. It frustrates me to no end each time I have to call the BPD about public drunkeness on that corner and on suspicious individuals and gang members. I have almost been hit numerous times by cars blowing the stop sign or racing to beat the train signal on Grove. Those issues exist already independ of the clinic.
It is my home and my neighborhood and I do want the best for it as do most of my neighbors. I have previously lived in an area where I personally experienced issues with patients of a drug treatment facility - I moved as a result. I also believe that those seeking treatment for chemical addiction deserve the right to such treatment from a safe, medically qualified and caring establishment, even if I don't agree with the methods used. It is complex.
At the end of the day, I need some assurances that if the clinic moves in that the quality of life for the residents in the area will remain (at least) the same. And if not, what recourse do I have as a resident other than moving out of Berwyn? If just one alderman or city official stood up, gave some assurances about the business, and personally attested to the quality, character and commitment of the owners of the Buonauro clinic, that would go a long way IMHO. This could be done privately (in person), via a simple email communciation, or even in a public forum/discussion. Why hasn't this happened?
That clinic does not belong in Berwyn, enough said! Even if a lawsuit does happen and they insist on coming here, there will be strong opposition from the community and for good reason. This is our city and we know what is best for us, especially with the outpouring of opposition. IMHO having that is providing another "anchor" for the unsavory element that has been slowly creeping into Berwyn. If there are so dead set on opening a clinic, why won't they go somewhere else. They are needier areas in IMHO, and an up-and-coming business district near homes and schools is not one of them!
Quote from: mcaryl on November 29, 2008, 02:35:03 AMThey are needier areas in IMHO, and an up-and-coming business district near homes and schools is not one of them!
Such as??
Vic- is automobile traffic really an issue? I was under the impression one of the reasons this location was chosen was proximity to the train station, as folks under the influence, so to speak, shouldn't be driving anyway. Perhaps during the school year they could have business hours which don't interfere with the kids, if that's an issue.
Along with the idea of a tour of the Evanston facility, maybe a walking tour (video?) could be made for a six block radius, with some interviews with nearby residents.
Quote from: Bonster on November 29, 2008, 08:27:34 AM
Vic- is automobile traffic really an issue?
Traffic on Grove avenue between the tracks and Ogden is a nightmare, especially up to 34th street, because it is one of only 6 streets in Berwyn that cross the Burlington tracks.
I don't know how many times I have driven east on 34th street only to slam on my breaks at Grove because some idiot didn't stop for the stop sign. Some people seem to think Grove is a side street race track.
Ted
I understand. My street crosses the tracks, too...it's nuts. But I was referring to traffic generated by addicts coming for their methadone.
Ted is right, that is narrow street from Windsor to 34th, traffic is non stop all day, plus right
now you have all the cars parked on the street.
When construction starts on the garage, it will be added chaos for awhile.
If addicts are to be dropped off, I can't see where their ride will wait for them? Double
parking on that block has caused tempers to flare.
Quote from: Bonster on November 29, 2008, 08:27:52 AM
Along with the idea of a tour of the Evanston facility, maybe a walking tour (video?) could be made for a six block radius, with some interviews with nearby residents.
When this all first blew up, I tried to get info and opinions via a local forum -- and all I got was an emotional, unprofessional response from some so-called 'nurse' in defense of the joint. Nurse. Right...
Evanston Police Chief never did respond to my inquiry regarding activity, traffic and crime around the BBC there.
Good idea, though -- to canvas the area iaround the Evanston facility in person. Just be sure not to announce when that might happen... Still would like to see the financials on the Evanston facility and/or the individuals involved.
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on November 29, 2008, 11:49:46 AM
Quote from: Bonster on November 29, 2008, 08:27:52 AM
Along with the idea of a tour of the Evanston facility, maybe a walking tour (video?) could be made for a six block radius, with some interviews with nearby residents.
When this all first blew up, I tried to get info and opinions via a local forum -- and all I got was an emotional, unprofessional response from some so-called 'nurse' in defense of the joint. Nurse. Right...
Evanston Police Chief never did respond to my inquiry regarding activity, traffic and crime around the BBC there.
Good idea, though -- to canvas the area iaround the Evanston facility in person. Just be sure not to announce when that might happen... Still would like to see the financials on the Evanston facility and/or the individuals involved.
And I ask you again, why are the financials any of your business and how are they germaine to the issue at hand?
You call the nurse's response emotional and unprofessional, then you turn around and refer to her as a "so-called 'nurse'". Absent any knowledge of her credentials, why is your insulting comment any less emotional and, can I use the word, professional than hers? Is it just because you don't like what she said?
Quote from: ESAD on November 29, 2008, 01:15:33 PM
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on November 29, 2008, 11:49:46 AM
Quote from: Bonster on November 29, 2008, 08:27:52 AM
Along with the idea of a tour of the Evanston facility, maybe a walking tour (video?) could be made for a six block radius, with some interviews with nearby residents.
When this all first blew up, I tried to get info and opinions via a local forum -- and all I got was an emotional, unprofessional response from some so-called 'nurse' in defense of the joint. Nurse. Right...
Evanston Police Chief never did respond to my inquiry regarding activity, traffic and crime around the BBC there.
Good idea, though -- to canvas the area iaround the Evanston facility in person. Just be sure not to announce when that might happen... Still would like to see the financials on the Evanston facility and/or the individuals involved.
And I ask you again, why are the financials any of your business and how are they germaine to the issue at hand?
You call the nurse's response emotional and unprofessional, then you turn around and refer to her as a "so-called 'nurse'". Absent any knowledge of her credentials, why is your insulting comment any less emotional and, can I use the word, professional than hers? Is it just because you don't like what she said?
The court will settle it
I am absolutely dumbfounded that individuals who live close to such a progressive city are so close minded. Maybe everyone on this message board needs to do some research on methadone clinics, the clientele, the process, the progress, the statistics, etc. before they speak out of turn. I would suggest starting with the other methadone clinics owned and operated by the Buonauros. The current state of that union could be somewhat indicative of what you could expect in Berwyn.
Berwyn is NOT a closed minded city and if you read most of the thread you would know that not everyone is against a Methadone clinic. Some are asking about the need for one in this area given the fact that there are some clinics already located near-by and others are questioning this specific location. If you look where their other clinic is located, on Howard st in Evanston you will notice onsite parking in a commerical business area not a small side street with no onsite parking near schools and family-oriented business. Why can't they rent out space in one of MacNeals offices?
Don't confuse hard working family oriented with closed minded.
Quote from: Thor on December 03, 2008, 11:58:31 AM
Berwyn is NOT a closed minded city and if you read most of the thread you would know that not everyone is against a Methadone clinic. Some are asking about the need for one in this area given the fact that there are some clinics already located near-by and others are questioning this specific location. If you look where their other clinic is located, on Howard st in Evanston you will notice onsite parking in a commerical business area not a small side street with no onsite parking near schools and family-oriented business. Why can't they rent out space in one of MacNeals offices?
Don't confuse hard working family oriented with closed minded.
A MacNeal office would be a better choice, I agree
Quote from: AngieBear68 on December 03, 2008, 12:19:50 PM
A MacNeal office would be a better choice, I agree
I believe the location that they were denied WAS in a MacNeal office? No??
Quote from: delbowz on December 03, 2008, 12:41:28 PM
Quote from: AngieBear68 on December 03, 2008, 12:19:50 PM
A MacNeal office would be a better choice, I agree
I believe the location that they were denied WAS in a MacNeal office? No??
I don't think so. I thought it was a medical office building across from Salerno's that is privately owned.
Ted
Quote from: politicalpunx on December 03, 2008, 11:38:28 AM
I am absolutely dumbfounded that individuals who live close to such a progressive city are so close minded. Maybe everyone on this message board needs to do some research on methadone clinics, the clientele, the process, the progress, the statistics, etc. before they speak out of turn. I would suggest starting with the other methadone clinics owned and operated by the Buonauros. The current state of that union could be somewhat indicative of what you could expect in Berwyn.
Some have been trying -- yet told info is none of their business...
ZING!!!
There is a pediatrician in that building
3245 is a privately owned building, and has been remodeled and is a clean building.
The owner had been having some trouble renting out the space. It was empty for a period
of time.
It is just the wrong place for a Meth clinic period. A very residential area, schools near by, crowding
of streets and lack of parking. This has all been discussed before. Decisions and mistakes are made every day in this
city, I think a lesson was learned on this one. Lets move on and quit dwelling on what almost was.
Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on December 03, 2008, 03:19:41 PM
Lets move on and quit dwelling on what almost was.
Until the lawsuit is final or the election is over, this will continue to be THE hot button issue to talk about no matter what side of the issue you are on. After stating in colorful detail my feelings, I am taking a pass on expressing anything else on this.
Quote from: LL--Schmidt on December 03, 2008, 02:28:18 PM
Quote from: politicalpunx on December 03, 2008, 11:38:28 AM
I am absolutely dumbfounded that individuals who live close to such a progressive city are so close minded. Maybe everyone on this message board needs to do some research on methadone clinics, the clientele, the process, the progress, the statistics, etc. before they speak out of turn. I would suggest starting with the other methadone clinics owned and operated by the Buonauros. The current state of that union could be somewhat indicative of what you could expect in Berwyn.
Some have been trying -- yet told info is none of their business...
Research on methadone clinics, the clientele, the process, the progress, the statistics, etc. would have been great, several months ago. Now it's pretty much too late. What's none of the publics business is the clinic's and Sottile's/Buonauro's financial info. They're not applying for any public funds, so I can't imagine why, other than just being nosey, anyone would be interested.
Quote from: tony la on December 03, 2008, 02:50:07 PM
There is a pediatrician in that building
Pediatrician(s), plural.
Quote from: jman on November 28, 2008, 07:49:26 AM
"You can't prove a double negative."
Actually, it's a negative that can be impossible to prove. Double negatives are proven on a routine basis every day. offtopic
I stand corrected jman. You are correct.
HAd a brain cramp there for a second, and was actually thinking of something else.
From the law firms site that is representing the clinic...
http://www.gouldratner.com/news-firm-78.html (http://www.gouldratner.com/news-firm-78.html)
So the Methadone four got out smarted by the Mayor. If they are in charge, who else will out smart them?
The M4. Sounds like a line item on Council Agenda.
Can they do anything right besides throwing parties and getting shit-faced?
'So the Methadone four got out smarted by the Mayor"....
I fail to understand your logic, the suit was caused by the mayors actions
previous to the vote. His political grandstanding and use thereof for gain
is also cited in the suit.
I won't speculate any further, we will have to see how this plays out.
Actually, the M4 were cited in the suit as well...
"the City Council reversed its decision and rejected the substance abuse clinic proposal. The suit accuses the city and its officials"
...bunch of jackasses.
Quote from: Bear on December 07, 2008, 09:58:18 PM
'So the Methadone four got out smarted by the Mayor"....
I fail to understand your logic, the suit was caused by the mayors actions
previous to the vote. His political grandstanding and use thereof for gain
is also cited in the suit.
I won't speculate any further, we will have to see how this plays out.
QuoteThen, after a "personal and political crusade" orchestrated by Berwyn Mayor Michael A. O'Connor to organize community opposition, the City Council reversed its decision and rejected the substance abuse clinic proposal.
That is a quote from the link you posted.
So the Mayor organizes the community opposition. The Methadone Four decide they better change their vote because of public outrage (orchestrated by the Mayor). Because they REVERSE their decision (due to maneuvering by the mayor), the city gets sued.
If they had the guts and brains to stick to their original decision, wouldn't this lawsuit have been avoided? So either they didn't understand the ramifications of their actions, or they were outsmarted by the mayor, causing them to change their vote. In either case, can you really trust their judgment or principles (as Skryd so eloquently said "I just want to be reelected")?
A "personal and political crusade" has NEVER been a cause of action in a Federal lawsuit. Never has been, never will be. It's simply an unsubtantiated factual allegation in a lawsuit.
There is an item on this Tuesday's city council agenda to settle the lawsuit brought forth by the owner's of the The Bobby Buonauro Clinic, Inc., Elizabeth Buonauro and Sal R. Sottile.
The proposed settlement is for $650,000. It is case 2008-CV-6687.
Something I've been wondering - Was it worth it?
Was it worth it to spend legal fees and have $650,000 in tax payer money go to the methadone clinic as a judgment?
Would the city have been better off allowing the metadone clinic in a pediatrician's building in the Depot Distict?
Or, do people think it was worth $650,000 to not have the methadone clinic in a pediatrician's building in the Depot District?
Quote from: Ted on July 22, 2012, 10:36:02 AM
Something I've been wondering - Was it worth it?
Was it worth it to spend legal fees and have $650,000 in tax payer money go to the methadone clinic as a judgment?
Would the city have been better off allowing the metadone clinic in a pediatrician's building in the Depot Distict?
Or, do people think it was worth $650,000 to not have the methadone clinic in a pediatrician's building in the Depot District?
I'm sure the people in the depot district think it was well worth it.
What neighborhood did it land in?
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 22, 2012, 12:36:33 PM
I'm sure the people in the depot district think it was well worth it.
What neighborhood did it land in?
On the eastern end of Cermak Road (in the 5th ward).
Quote from: Ted on July 22, 2012, 01:09:27 PM
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 22, 2012, 12:36:33 PM
I'm sure the people in the depot district think it was well worth it.
What neighborhood did it land in?
On the eastern end of Cermak Road (in the 5th ward).
6200 block/Cermak
Wow. The settlement barely passed in the city council last night.
Did Santoy, Skryd or Avila give any reason why they voted no?
Story in the Life:
http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/berwyn/newsnow/x919892666/Berwyn-methadone-lawsuit-could-cost-city-650K (http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/berwyn/newsnow/x919892666/Berwyn-methadone-lawsuit-could-cost-city-650K)
Berwyn City Council passes methadone clinic settlement, barely
By Brett Schweinberg, bschweinberg@mysuburbanlife.com
Berwyn Life
Posted Jul 24, 2012 @ 09:27 PM
Berwyn, IL — The Berwyn City Council passed a decision to award a lawsuit settlement of $650,000 to the owners of a methadone clinic the city council had attempted to block from opening in the city's Depot District.
The measure passed by a 4-3 vote. Aldermen Michele Skryd, Cesar Santoy, and Rafael Avila voted against the measure, while aldermen Jeff Boyajian, Marge Paul, Theodore Polashek and Nora Laureto voted for the measure. First Ward Alderman Nona Chapman was absent from tonight's meeting.
A federal judge ruled in May that the city had violated the American with Disabilities Act by first denying the methadone clinic a business license and later trying to pass zoning ordinances to restrict where it could open.
The settlement finalizes the issue permanently and the city no longer has a right to appeal the decision.
Polashek, the Sixth Ward alderman, said that he was not happy with the settlement, but voted for the measure to maintain a consensus the council came to in closed session.
Although the council initially voted to allow the clinic to open in 2008, it quickly reversed its decision amid public outcry. In November of that year, the clinic's proprietors, Elizabeth Buonauro and Sal Sottile, sued the city seeking a court order to open the facility along with compensatory damages.
Although the city had tried to set up specially zoned areas to restrict where a methadone or rehab clinic could be opened, a federal judge ruled that the city must allow clinics to open anywhere it chooses. The judge also ordered the city to allow Buonauro and Sottile to open a clinic at 6201 Cermak Road, where they currently hold a lease, according to court documents.
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on July 22, 2012, 12:36:33 PM
Quote from: Ted on July 22, 2012, 10:36:02 AM
Something I've been wondering - Was it worth it?
Was it worth it to spend legal fees and have $650,000 in tax payer money go to the methadone clinic as a judgment?
Would the city have been better off allowing the metadone clinic in a pediatrician's building in the Depot Distict?
Or, do people think it was worth $650,000 to not have the methadone clinic in a pediatrician's building in the Depot District?
I'm sure the people in the depot district think it was well worth it.
Perhaps they should pay the entire $650K and see how they like it. :)
Quote from: Ted on July 22, 2012, 10:36:02 AM
Something I've been wondering - Was it worth it?
Was it worth it to spend legal fees and have $650,000 in tax payer money go to the methadone clinic as a judgment?
Would the city have been better off allowing the metadone clinic in a pediatrician's building in the Depot Distict?
My thoughts exactly. It was purely a NIMBY effort. I didn't see them hootin' and a-hollerin' about the new location.