201 School Board Meeting 10/10/07

[Berwyn Patsy]

Doesn't it make you feel sad, angry, bitter and sick all at the same time?
How did it all become such a mess?  Better yet, why isn't it getting any better?

[Bonster]

While Cliff asked to hold the essay, I felt it would be inappropriate to only list a few problem areas without explaining them.  So I apologize now for making you waste an extra few minutes reading my post...

No that's great.  I just didn't want to waste your  time.


Is that normal for public high schools to go beyond Calculus? 
Regardless, one would think a mathematician (teacher) should be able to teach other courses (linear algebra, discreet, diff eq, I dunno, Ted?), no?

[rbain]

Wow, I was in high school in the mid-80's at a small town school (approx. 800 total students) and we didn't even offer Calculus. The school was considered good (probably more due to size) but I didn't have more than an intro to Algebra before HS. Our normal college-track math was Alg.1, Geometry, Alg.2, and then Trig or pre-calc. If you were really advanced, you'd drive to the community college for Calc, but that was rare.
We also didn't offer any AP. We were an FFA magnate  school, though!
-Rob

[Ted]

While Cliff asked to hold the essay, I felt it would be inappropriate to only list a few problem areas without explaining them.  So I apologize now for making you waste an extra few minutes reading my post...

No that's great.  I just didn't want to waste your  time.


Is that normal for public high schools to go beyond Calculus? 
Regardless, one would think a mathematician (teacher) should be able to teach other courses (linear algebra, discreet, diff eq, I dunno, Ted?), no?

   I don't think most high schools go beyond Calculus. I took algebra in 8th grade and then took 4 years of math in high school, starting with geometry in my freshman year going up to AP Calculus in my senior year.

 Is that the same at Morton?  I think any student taking AP Calculus would have had to take algebra as an 8th grader.

I would hope any math teacher would be able to teach all the regular math courses.  I don't know if they teach statistics in high school, but statistics may be the only course that is a bit different than algebra, geometry and calculus.

 As for not enough courses in a year, I hope that comes down to money rather than choice by the administration.

[Ted]

  ...  After taking two years of Algebra in middle school, I was only left with three math classes to take at Morton: Geometry, Pre-Calculus, and Calculus. 

What is taught in "pre-calculus".  I took algebra in middle school as well, but I also took 4 years of math in high school, with AP Calculus in my senior year.

  I have never heard of "pre-calculus".  In my junior year, I took Analytical Geometry (which is geometry on a Cartesian plane).

Do they still teach Analytical Geometry in high school?

[MortonStudent08]

Pre-Calculus is what brings together Algebra and Geometry concepts together.  It has that "analytical geometry" element in it, though.  And yes, if a student wanted to take Calculus, they would have had to take a year of algebra in middle school or take Advanced Alg. in summer school (but that student would not be able to receive an honors point for it).

Many other schools (Hinsdale Central & LT) offer classes past Calculus, like Calculus BC (2nd year college Calc) or AP Statistics.  There are a number of teachers at Morton West that are qualified to teach those courses, but the money won't give the Math department the money it needs to add much needed courses.  Every Math class is jammed packed and they need another math teacher to ease the load.  They even have a science teacher teaching a few math classes during the day.  Personally, I think an extra math teacher would do our school much more benefit than having multiple theater/stagecraft instructors...

It was also brought up at the board meeting that the schools need computers to utilize programs that will aid in Math and English.  However, Dr. No stated that there's no room in the budget for any new computers.  I don't claim to be a mathematician or accountant, yet, but if we were to lower Dr. No's salary by $20,000 (to an impoverished $200,000...) we could afford 50-100 new computers, the amount that was said to be needed.  But I don't blame Dr. No for not coming up with that idea, I mean, it's not like he was once a business manager or anything.  What does he know about balancing our budget?

[OakParkSpartan]

Morton,

The problem with your suggestion of lowering his salary is who would want to come work at Morton when they're salary is cut?  Someday when you are working, you will have a better understanding of what a 10% salary cut would mean to you.

[MortonStudent08]

Morton,

The problem with your suggestion of lowering his salary is who would want to come work at Morton when they're salary is cut?  Someday when you are working, you will have a better understanding of what a 10% salary cut would mean to you.

I understand that completely, but it is also a salary that was bloated up a few years back for Cunnean.  Its about time we realize the mistake we allowed then...

[Bonster]

Every Math class is jammed packed and they need another math teacher to ease the load.  They even have a science teacher teaching a few math classes during the day.  Personally, I think an extra math teacher would do our school much more benefit than having multiple theater/stagecraft instructors...

I've met one MW math teacher (from Oak Park)..............he seemed to believe the problem was overcrowding, not a lack of math teachers...

[Ted]

Many other schools (Hinsdale Central & LT) offer classes past Calculus, like Calculus BC (2nd year college Calc) or AP Statistics.  There are a number of teachers at Morton West that are qualified to teach those courses,

  Second year college calculus is pretty deep stuff to be teaching in high school  It's something only Math and maybe Physics majors take in college. It deals with calculus in a multi-dimensional space. After that, you start getting into multi-dimensional non-Euclidean geometries (which our universe is, as Einstein pointed out).  Those are pretty hard concepts to teach to high school students, but maybe kids are a lot smarter today.

  I think a basic statistics course as a 4th math course makes more sense than second year college calculus.  Or maybe a course in number theory, which I think would be easier to teach and for high school students to understand and is a pretty fun course to take.

Pre-Calculus is what brings together Algebra and Geometry concepts together.  It has that "analytical geometry" element in it, though.  And yes, if a student wanted to take Calculus, they would have had to take a year of algebra in middle school or take Advanced Alg. in summer school (but that student would not be able to receive an honors point for it).

  Then what is missing?  Is Trigonometry still taught in high school?  It sounds like Morton is providing only 3 years of math in the core curriuclum (Algebra, Geometry and "Pre-Calculus") if someone doesn't take AP Calculus. Something's missing.

It was also brought up at the board meeting that the schools need computers to utilize programs that will aid in Math and English.  However, Dr. No stated that there's no room in the budget for any new computers.  I don't claim to be a mathematician or accountant, yet, but if we were to lower Dr. No's salary by $20,000 (to an impoverished $200,000...) we could afford 50-100 new computers, the amount that was said to be needed.  But I don't blame Dr. No for not coming up with that idea, I mean, it's not like he was once a business manager or anything.  What does he know about balancing our budget?

  Nowakowski was the business manager for one year, but he did inherit a mess when he became the business manager.  The books were a disaster.  I remember going in and talking to him and Gail Kopf about why certain things were accounted for in a certain way and they would shurg their shoulders and say it was done before they got to Morton.

  Cutting Nowakowski's salary by $20,000 is not going to solve the budget problem.  The issue is a lot more complex than that  The deficit is due to the large jump in the number of students in the district over the last decade. For every additional 100 students, you have to hire 4 to 5 new teachers at a cost in salary and benefits of over $300,000.  So, when you have a district where the student population increases from 5000 to 8000, that is a $10 million jump in costs.

  The other issue is that the district should have gone to the voters to try to get a special bond for building the Freshman Center and for fixing and extending Morton West rather than paying for it out of the operations funds.  Cuneen played a cheap trick on the tax payers of this district by maxing out the long term debt and then, the very next month, saying we needed a tax rate increase.

  So, the budget problem is not a simple thing.

I've met one MW math teacher (from Oak Park)..............he seemed to believe the problem was overcrowding, not a lack of math teachers...

  That is one problem but why did it not affect other departments in the same way?  Are 30% of the students taking English classes failing?  Are 30% of the students who take science classes failing?

  Also, from what I am hearing in this discussion thread, the math curriculum itself is not adequate.  As I said before, this is not the first time I have heard this charge about the way math is being taught at Morton but the study by the consulting group puts it in a very harsh light.

  Ted

[rbain]

Every Math class is jammed packed and they need another math teacher to ease the load.  They even have a science teacher teaching a few math classes during the day.  Personally, I think an extra math teacher would do our school much more benefit than having multiple theater/stagecraft instructors...

I've met one MW math teacher (from Oak Park)..............he seemed to believe the problem was overcrowding, not a lack of math teachers...

Cliff- help me with the math on that. If there are enough teachers, how could you have overcrowding??
-Rob

[MWTeach]

As a math teacher, let me see if I can offer my humble opinion to some of the problems that we have as a department. I can't give actual numbers of students, but let's start with the large majority of freshmen students who come to West unprepared to take freshman level Algebra. We have students who come to us with math levels as low as the 3rd grade, students who have never been required to do basic operations without a calculator, etc. We have tried ot implement a summer bridge program to get skill levels where they need to be before the students enter high school, but have been told that we can't require kids to pay for the class or we've been told there is no money to even offer the class. These students are placed in a 2 year algebra program as freshman and then complete their third year of math by taking a low level geometry course. A few of these students, who hope to attend 4 year colleges, will opt to take Advanced Algebra (typically a junior level course) in their senior year as an elective. Many of those that do struggle, as this is the first "core level" class they take, but those who work hard at it often pass and do well. I beleive that if you talk to teachers of freshmen and ask about the number of sections of "Essentials of Algebra" vs the number of sections of Algebra 1 or Honors Algebra, you'll easily see where the majority lie.
Some of our middle schools teach Algebra 1 to 8th graders using the same book we used at West (we just this year updated our Alg 1 texts). The problem is they don't complete the book in the 8th grade, so some of these students place into Algebra and others place into Honors Algebra as freshmen...still others, who may have had Algebra for 2 years in middle school, will place into Honors Advanced Algebra as freshmen. This creates 4 "tracks" of students at the freshmen level alone.
IMHO, perhaps citizens of Berwyn and concerned parents need to question the board as to why we STILL have no curriculum director? Les Luka has been retired for how many years now and the vacancy still exists. This makes it very difficult for ANY department to attempt to move forward. As I stated in another thread, students are now being "moved through" their math classes without passing the prior courses. How can you possibly expect a student to do well in the second year of Essentials of Algebra without passing the first? Or better yet, because our curriculum guide only lists required prerequisites for the second year of Essentials and Advanced Algebra (in other words, there is no prereq for Geometry, a student can fail Alg and then be moved to Geom in their soph yr. It is up to the student and their counselor to sign up for summer school or night school to complete the credit.) it is possible to have a junior placed in Advanced Algebra without that student ever having passed Algebra as a freshman!! We have argued this, as a whole department, with the superintendent MANY times, but are told that this is the way it's going to be.
I could go on and on about what a winderful set of teachers we have. As a department of over 20 members, a vast majority of us are there for our students and are ready and willing to do anything possible to help these students succeed, but we are often met with barriers outside of our control...low skill levels coming from junior high, resistance from admin to create more prerequisites, the cutting of our Math Lab (a drop in tutoring center open to all students during lunches and staffed my a teacher, an asset that high Schools that Work COMMENDED us for having!), etc, etc. In addition, our classes are packed full by the end of the first week of school, if not earlier, leaving little room to move a student who is misplaced or place a student who registers late. This is the second year we have teachers teaching "overloads" (teaching all 6 periods of the day, with no prep period) so, hiring a new math teacher and spreading out some of these students to create a little more "wiggle room" would be a blessing!
We have also discussed, as a dept, offering an additional senior elective for those rare students who make it through Calculus before junior year, or for those students who want another option (we have a "core level" senior elective called College Alg/Trig for those students who took Alg, Geom, and Adv Alg). There are several teachers willing to teach a stats class or computer programming, but, again, we're told the money isn't there or we need our teachers to be teaching more sections of the other classes because of the failure rates...again, the kids who pass their classes and are looking for further enrichment suffer. We also have a problem putting a new class "on the books" because, once again, we have no curriculum director!

As a final note, I just wanted to clarify something that MortonStudent stated about a science teacher teaching math classes: this teacher IS doubly certified and splits time teaching math and science. Don't want anyone to think that we have unqualified teachers teaching math!

I can't speak for the failure rates of other departments, but I know that failures across the board are high. Perhaps they aren't AS high in other depts because of the difference in the way math is sequential and previous skills are a necessity before moving to a higher level course. Perhaps MWInsider can offer some insight into his/her department?

I hope this helps to some extent, from the view of a teacher.

[Ted]

  MWTeach,

  Thank you very much for the post.  It was very enlightening.

I wish more teachers would post on these issus as well.

  These are the kinds of stories the Berwyn Life should cover.  We need more hard news about what is going on in our schools.

  Also, this kind of stuff should be discussed openly and directly in a District 201 newsletter.  But, I fear the credibility of the news letter suffered a blow last spring when it was used for political purposes to get a school board member  re-elected.

  Ted

[apatriot]

Teach:  "We have students who come to us with math levels as low as the 3rd grade,"

How and under whose administration did the above occur?  That's five years of going undetected?  Shouldn't someone be held accountable for this?

[Bonster]

Every Math class is jammed packed and they need another math teacher to ease the load.  They even have a science teacher teaching a few math classes during the day.  Personally, I think an extra math teacher would do our school much more benefit than having multiple theater/stagecraft instructors...

I've met one MW math teacher (from Oak Park)..............he seemed to believe the problem was overcrowding, not a lack of math teachers...

Cliff- help me with the math on that. If there are enough teachers, how could you have overcrowding??
-Rob

Right?
It's apparent he was speaking from the standpoint that staffing is adequate and the problems lie elsewhere. 

[MWTeach]

quote author=apatriot link=topic=4355.msg73973#msg73973 date=1192291498]
Teach:  "We have students who come to us with math levels as low as the 3rd grade,"

How and under whose administration did the above occur?  That's five years of going undetected?  Shouldn't someone be held accountable for this?
[/quote]

apatriot,
   these are students coming in from the various feeder middle schools. Don't get me wrong, not all students are coming in with such low skill levels, but it does and is happening. It's difficult to try and get a student form such a low level to a "high school level" in a matter of one year so that the student is then ready for sophomore level math. Students are also coming in with reading levels that low, which is why we currently have a reading program in place. Those kids who score too low on reading tests are placed in an English class AND a reading class to help get them up to level, but we unfortunately don't have the "luxury" of that option in the math dept.

MWTeach

[apatriot]

I guess I just look at these things in perhaps too simplistic a manner.  Seems to me the middle schools should know who has the ability to move to each higher level, and if they are not ready, they should be held back.  What did they expect you to do with someone who is at a 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, etc. level in a math class.  Again, its too simple to me.  If you cannot grasp math at the various levels you should not be moved up.  Would be like teaching advanced chess moves to someone who does not even understand how each individual piece moves.  Kind of a waste of time, isn't it?  Somebody must take responsibility for dropping the ball.

p.s. Years ago, had a buddy who understood nothing about cards, but watched us play pinochle (triple deck no less).  He asked my wife if she would teach him how to play.  I was standing in the kitchen as they sat at the table and she asked, ok, you know your suits, right?  He said yeah.  She said, OK, name one suit.  He said:  ACES !!  I looked at her and then promptly excused myself to go cut the lawn.

Seems like you got the same situation over there at MW. 

[Berwyn Patsy]

I don't understand either, how can you graduate 8th grade and read and know math only at a 3rd, 4th or even 5th grade level.
I agree, looks like it starts below the high school level. 

[apatriot]

right, BP.  and if it wasn't for Teach telling us the situation does exist, we would think everyone walking through the doors of MW belongs there.

[MortonStudent08]

As a final note, I just wanted to clarify something that MortonStudent stated about a science teacher teaching math classes: this teacher IS doubly certified and splits time teaching math and science. Don't want anyone to think that we have unqualified teachers teaching math!

I appologize if it sounded like I was questioning their qualification.  I know that that teacher is qualified, I was merely pointing out how stretched out our Math Dept. is for instructors.