Recommendation for new boiler

[Bonster]

So, if a boiler will last pretty much indefinitely, how should I feel when a heating guy tells us we should think about replacing ours?

But he also said we should really think about getting an entirely new boiler, as the ones that are made now are much more efficient than older models.

Both points are valid.  They may last forever (my 80+ year old gravity air octopus with coal-to-gas conversion kit was still in service when I purchased my home), but the older ones are certainly much less efficient.   You'd have to do a cost analysis and see how long it would take to recoup your $$ in a newer, more efficient unit.

I redid mine for multiple reasons - efficiency, safety, space, cooling. 

I'd ask for a 2nd opinion from Marty, above (unless he was your 1st ).

[Nazerac]

The new boilers are about 80-85% efficient, vs. the older ones that were 50%.  You will be saving 30% of your gas bill.

However, if the various parts of the system are starting to fail, you have to make a decision.  keep on fixing it and then getting be surprised when your boiler dies in February and pay premium prices for a new one?  Or, would you rather plan for it, save the money, and comes the spring of 2009 shop around for a replacement at your own pace?

My neighbour got a new one for about $3200 last month.

[Robert Pauly]

So your gas bill is $1500 per season, and you save 30% with a more efficient boiler, and a new boiler is $4000 - the payback is 9 years, assuming gas prices stay the same, no?

Another question: I have a bungalow, and my attic is uninsulated, save for some old blown-in stuff under the attic floor.  Someday, I'm going to finish my attic.  Am I smart to insulate the attic now - between the roof rafters - and what will this save me, if anything (heat escapes from the house into the cold attic where it doesn't escape as quickly into the colder outside)?

[OakParkSpartan]

I think you would be Robert.

As you said, the heat is flowing right out of the house.  It should also be cheaper than a new furnace if you were considering that.

[Bonster]

Be sure to examine various dormer insulating techniques.  You may want to leave channels uninsulated between the rafters, insulating a layer below them to add years to your roof (ideally keeping your roof and space immediately underneath the same temp + giving a much needed air gap) by preventing ice dams and condensation on the insulation.

[OakParkSpartan]

This is a site I've seen referenced before:  http://www.buildingscience.com/doctypes/digest/

[Nazerac]

I think you would be Robert.

As you said, the heat is flowing right out of the house.  It should also be cheaper than a new furnace if you were considering that.

Actually, my friend got it done for about 3K in the offseason, and that's a 6 years ROI for him.

Anyway, as far as insulating between the rafters, I wouldn't do it.  If you don't have enough airflow (vents in your attic), you will trap moisture and cause even more problems.  A better way to insulate is to seal any openings that are bringing the hot air into your attic. Your choice of blowing insulation into the roof of the attic floor would be your best bet.  It will keep the heat in your first floor, and won't mess up the humidity levels in your attic.  I don't know how much the ROI on that would be.  Assuming it costs $1000 for a contractor to add the blow in insulation, you can add a few more $$ and have him add the attic ventilation and you can insulate between the rafters yourself, .  I know that there are some companies that will blow insulation into the walls as well. (http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/Insulating_Old_Homes_Blow_In_Insulation_Options-Insulation-A1781.html)

I heard good things about these guys: http://www.allcomfortinsulation.com/


... and if you want to go totally green, check these guys out: http://www.renewable-resource.net/index.html

[Nazerac]

From the DOE


Use the equation below to estimate the cost effectiveness of adding insulation in terms of the "years to payback" for savings in heating costs. Years to payback is the time required for the insulation to save enough fuel from heating (at present prices) to pay for itself. A simple payback is the initial investment divided by annual savings after taxes.

The equation works only for uniform sections of the home. For example, you can estimate years to payback for a wall or several walls that have the same R-values, if you add the same amount of insulation everywhere. Ceilings, walls, or sections of walls with different R-values must be figured separately. Subtract the areas of windows and doors when estimating payback for wall insulation.

The cost of the energy source is also a key factor in determining payback. Energy prices vary widely from region to region and season to season. Other factors, such as the rate of production and inventories of fuels nationwide, can also affect local energy prices. The weather from year to year also varies, so your energy costs from year to year will vary as well. To figure the cost of energy, consult your local utility for a rate schedule, or save your energy bills and plug your specific costs into this formula:

Years to Payback  =  (C(i) × R(1) × R(2) × E)   ÷  (C(e) × [R(2) - R(1)] × HDD × 24)

To calculate the payback, you must supply the following information:

C(i)  =  Cost of insulation in $/square feet. Collect insulation cost information; include labor, equipment, and vapor barrier if needed.

C(e)  =  Cost of energy, expressed in $/Btu.

To calculate the cost of energy, divide the actual price you pay per gallon of oil, kilowatt-hour (kWh) of electricity, gallon of propane, or therm (or per one hundred cubic feet [ccf]) of natural gas by the Btu content per unit of fuel.

To figure the price you pay per unit, take the total amount of your bills (for oil, electricity, propane, or natural gas) during the heating season, and divide it by the total number of gallons, kWh, or therms you consumed during those months. Use the following values for fuel Btu content:

#2 Fuel Oil = 140,000 Btu/gallon
Electricity = 3,413 Btu/kWh
Propane = 91,600 Btu/gallon
Natural Gas = 103,000 Btu/ccf
or 100,000 Btu/therm

E  =  Efficiency of the heating system. For gas, propane, and fuel oil systems this is the Annual Fuel Utilization Efficiency or AFUE. Typical AFUE values are 0.6 to 0.88 for oil or propane furnaces, and 0.7 to 0.95 for natural gas furnaces. Older systems are usually less efficient. Use E = 1.00 for baseboard electric systems. For heat pumps, use the Coefficient of Performance or COP for E; where E = 2.1 to 2.5 for conventional heat pumps, and E = 3.2 to 3.5 for geothermal heat pumps.

R(1)  =  Initial R-value of section

R(2)  =  Final R-value of section

R(2) - R(1) =  R-value of additional insulation being considered

HDD  =  Heating degree days/year. This information can usually be obtained from your local weather station, utility, or oil dealer.

24  =  Multiplier used to convert heating degree days to heating hours (24 hours/day).

Example:
Suppose that you want to know how many years it will take to recover the cost of installing additional insulation in your attic. You are planning to increase the level of insulation from R-19 (6-inch fiberglass batts with moisture barrier on the warm side) to R-30 by adding R-11 (3.5-inch unfaced fiberglass batts). You have a gas furnace with an AFUE of 0.88. You also pay $0.87/therm for natural gas. Let's also suppose that you supply the following values for the variables in the formula.

C(i) = $0.18/square foot

C(e) = ($0.87/therm)÷(100,000 Btu/therm) = $0.0000087/Btu

E = 0.88

R(1) = 19

R(2) = 30

R(2) - R(1) = 11

HDD = 7000

By plugging the numbers into the formula, you obtain the years to payback:

Years to Payback  =  (C(i) × R(1) × R(2) × E)   ÷  (C(e) × [R(2) - R(1)] × HDD × 24)

Years to Payback  =  (0.18 × 19 × 30 × 0.88)   ÷   ($0.0000087 × 11 × 7000 × 24)

90.288   ÷   16.077   =  5.62 years

[Bonster]

Excellent site, Brian.

A better way to insulate is to seal any openings that are bringing the hot air into your attic. Your choice of blowing insulation into the roof of the attic floor would be your best bet.  It will keep the heat in your first floor, and won't mess up the humidity levels in your attic.

Nailed it.

I had this problem, evidenced by moisture on my attic windows, and as it worsened- ice.  Most dont' ever really notice this during the winter, but I had decorations in my attic during the holidays which were disappearing behind the windows as the moisture increased and temperature dropped.

Original heater had ineffective humidifier so it wasn't noticed in prev. years; added a bathroom fan which wasn't sealed well;  opened another hole adding new bathroom (vent), kitchen door to attic not sealed; interior walls not sealed at attic.  I was adding moisture and heat the attic had never seen.  After sealing openings and increasing the (roof) vent area I saw an immediate difference.

You can do the rafters if vented properly, but those with beaded wood soffits might not be so eager to create openings for ventilation.

[watcher]

I think you would be Robert.

As you said, the heat is flowing right out of the house.  It should also be cheaper than a new furnace if you were considering that.

Actually, my friend got it done for about 3K in the offseason, and that's a 6 years ROI for him.

Anyway, as far as insulating between the rafters, I wouldn't do it.  If you don't have enough airflow (vents in your attic), you will trap moisture and cause even more problems.  A better way to insulate is to seal any openings that are bringing the hot air into your attic. Your choice of blowing insulation into the roof of the attic floor would be your best bet.  It will keep the heat in your first floor, and won't mess up the humidity levels in your attic.  I don't know how much the ROI on that would be.  Assuming it costs $1000 for a contractor to add the blow in insulation, you can add a few more $$ and have him add the attic ventilation and you can insulate between the rafters yourself, .  I know that there are some companies that will blow insulation into the walls as well. (http://www.bobvila.com/HowTo_Library/Insulating_Old_Homes_Blow_In_Insulation_Options-Insulation-A1781.html)

I heard good things about these guys: http://www.allcomfortinsulation.com/

... and if you want to go totally green, check these guys out: http://www.renewable-resource.net/index.html

A slight right turn from boilers? Still, all part of the heating/cooling "system".

As much as I LOVE my brick bungalow, insulation is not its strong suit. 12" of solid brick +  1x3 furring strips +1/4"  lath + 1/2"  plaster = R value of ?
There is a thermal mass factor and something to be said for good tuckpointing to prevent heat loss/gain but I still wonder... Conduction sucks from Dec-April.

Thank Jah for picture molding and PM hooks. Stunning old world tapestries would be nice, but you'd be surprised at the artistic value of sleeping bag linings depicting hunting scenes, plaids and woods. Aesthetics be damned. Some day I will find some old heavy velvet stage curtains. Until then, don't knock my winter art gallery.
The thermal break alone makes it tolerable to sit near an exterior wall.

Welcome to my igloo.

[Jo]

Thanks for the feedback everyone!

[maraire]

JO, you really should get a 2nd opinion. Martin-Aire would be happy to do such. If not us then please use another reputable contractor. Things can get confusing but are some what simple when explained right.

My question to BTF'ers,  how many used Nazeracs formula on ROI ? Anyone that can figure that out I may have a full time position available for you.

[Robert Pauly]

If we're going to finish our attic, we'll need to insulate between the roof rafters, and I'm told that there's a proper way to do it.  First, a ridge vent will have to be installed on my roof.  Second, I'll have to make sure that my soffits are vented, which is probably not the case.  My soffits are aluminum clad with plenty of venting, but there's probably a solid wood soffit underneath.  How do I drill holes in the original wood soffit without damaging the new aluminum soffit (which I just painted, of course)?  I'm stuck on this step - if I could figure this out, I'd start the project this weekend.  I thought about drilling from the attic, but I'm sure I'd slip and damage the aluminum.  And I'm too lazy to remove the aluminum and restore / upkeep the original wood.  Any ideas?

Once proper air flow is achieved, there's a thing called a vent chute that's installed next to the roof decking, which provides 1" of air flow once insulation is installed.  I've seen these chutes at Home Depot.  This seems easy - getting air flow from the soffits is where I'm stuck - and I'm sure that many have solved this judging on the number of finished attics in my neighborhood.

[tgoddess]

From the DOE


Use the equation below to estimate the cost effectiveness of adding insulation in terms of the "years to payback" for savings in heating costs. Years to payback is the time required for the insulation to save enough fuel from heating (at present prices) to pay for itself. A simple payback is the initial investment divided by annual savings after taxes.

The equation works only for uniform sections of the home. For example, you can estimate years to payback for a wall or several walls that have the same R-values, if you add the same amount of insulation everywhere. Ceilings, walls, or sections of walls with different R-values must be figured separately. Subtract the areas of windows and doors when estimating payback for wall insulation.

The cost of the energy source is also a key factor in determining payback. Energy prices vary widely from region to region and season to season. Other factors, such as the rate of production and inventories of fuels nationwide, can also affect local energy prices. The weather from year to year also varies, so your energy costs from year to year will vary as well. To figure the cost of energy, consult your local utility for a rate schedule, or save your energy bills and plug your specific costs into this formula:

Years to Payback  =  (C(i) × R(1) × R(2) × E)   ÷  (C(e) × [R(2) - R(1)] × HDD × 24)

To calculate the payback, you must supply the following information:

C(i)  =  Cost of insulation in $/square feet. Collect insulation cost information; include labor, equipment, and vapor barrier if needed.

C(e)  =  Cost of energy, expressed in $/Btu.

To calculate the cost of energy, divide the actual price you pay per gallon of oil, kilowatt-hour (kWh) of electricity, gallon of propane, or therm (or per one hundred cubic feet [ccf]) of natural gas by the Btu content per unit of fuel.

To figure the price you pay per unit, take the total amount of your bills (for oil, electricity, propane, or natural gas) during the heating season, and divide it by the total number of gallons, kWh, or therms you consumed during those months. Use the following values for fuel Btu content:

#2 Fuel Oil = 140,000 Btu/gallon
Electricity = 3,413 Btu/kWh
Propane = 91,600 Btu/gallon
Natural Gas = 103,000 Btu/ccf
or 100,000 Btu/therm

E  =  Efficiency of the heating system. For gas, propane, and fuel oil systems this is the Annual Fuel Utilization Efficiency or AFUE. Typical AFUE values are 0.6 to 0.88 for oil or propane furnaces, and 0.7 to 0.95 for natural gas furnaces. Older systems are usually less efficient. Use E = 1.00 for baseboard electric systems. For heat pumps, use the Coefficient of Performance or COP for E; where E = 2.1 to 2.5 for conventional heat pumps, and E = 3.2 to 3.5 for geothermal heat pumps.

R(1)  =  Initial R-value of section

R(2)  =  Final R-value of section

R(2) - R(1) =  R-value of additional insulation being considered

HDD  =  Heating degree days/year. This information can usually be obtained from your local weather station, utility, or oil dealer.

24  =  Multiplier used to convert heating degree days to heating hours (24 hours/day).

Example:
Suppose that you want to know how many years it will take to recover the cost of installing additional insulation in your attic. You are planning to increase the level of insulation from R-19 (6-inch fiberglass batts with moisture barrier on the warm side) to R-30 by adding R-11 (3.5-inch unfaced fiberglass batts). You have a gas furnace with an AFUE of 0.88. You also pay $0.87/therm for natural gas. Let's also suppose that you supply the following values for the variables in the formula.

C(i) = $0.18/square foot

C(e) = ($0.87/therm)÷(100,000 Btu/therm) = $0.0000087/Btu

E = 0.88

R(1) = 19

R(2) = 30

R(2) - R(1) = 11

HDD = 7000

By plugging the numbers into the formula, you obtain the years to payback:

Years to Payback  =  (C(i) × R(1) × R(2) × E)   ÷  (C(e) × [R(2) - R(1)] × HDD × 24)

Years to Payback  =  (0.18 × 19 × 30 × 0.88)   ÷   ($0.0000087 × 11 × 7000 × 24)

90.288   ÷   16.077   =  5.62 years

Yeah...this is why I sucked at math.

[maraire]

If we're going to finish our attic, we'll need to insulate between the roof rafters, and I'm told that there's a proper way to do it.  First, a ridge vent will have to be installed on my roof.  Second, I'll have to make sure that my soffits are vented, which is probably not the case.  My soffits are aluminum clad with plenty of venting, but there's probably a solid wood soffit underneath.  How do I drill holes in the original wood soffit without damaging the new aluminum soffit (which I just painted, of course)?  I'm stuck on this step - if I could figure this out, I'd start the project this weekend.  I thought about drilling from the attic, but I'm sure I'd slip and damage the aluminum.  And I'm too lazy to remove the aluminum and restore / upkeep the original wood.  Any ideas?

Once proper air flow is achieved, there's a thing called a vent chute that's installed next to the roof decking, which provides 1" of air flow once insulation is installed.  I've seen these chutes at Home Depot.  This seems easy - getting air flow from the soffits is where I'm stuck - and I'm sure that many have solved this judging on the number of finished attics in my neighborhood.

OK I'm confused. If the aluminum is vented, but there is a solid wood soffit behind it then what is it venting? If the aluminum was installed properly the installer would have made sure there are vent openings in the original wood soffit. Most of the homes in the area do have vent openings in the orig wood soffits. If you don't the best way to accomplish this is to drill a series of holes from the outside in. A good 3 or 4" hole saw will accomplish this. Then you will need to purchase aluminum covers for the holes you drilled. I would make sure you have the covers (round vented grills) before drilling.

[Bonster]

Robert-
What I wonder is are the existing vents in your aluminum soffits between each rafter?
I most cases vents are placed X number of feet apart, meant to provide adequate venting for an entire attic.
When you're sealing up a dormer, wouldn't you need each rafter space to be vented?

| = rafter, __ = soffit vent

In a "normal" installation you'll have:

| __ | __ | __ | __ | __ | __ | __ | __ | __ |

When dormering an attic, you'd need:
| __ | __ | __ | __ | __ | __ | __ | __ | __ |

[Robert Pauly]

Yes, ideally each rafter would need to to be vented.  If I could get at the old soffit, I could drill a number of big holes between each rafter.  The wider spaced vents in the aluminum soffit would allow some air flow to most of these holes - solving this problem.  But how do I get at the old soffit without tearing the whole house apart?

[maraire]

  But how do I get at the old soffit without tearing the whole house apart?

You don't unless you're 2' tall and can crawl in there. You have to do it from the outside in, which no doubt makes the job more involved.
Been there, done this.

[Nazerac]

.... And I'm too lazy to remove the aluminum and restore / upkeep the original wood.  Any ideas?

Remove the aluminum and restore/upkeep original wood.

If you are willing to go through all of that work to make sure that your attic is properly insulated, what's a little bit extra effort to make sure that the house is properly and historically restored?

[Bonster]

Yeah, I agree that's a tall task.  I'd imagine your attic floor presently extends all the way to the roof line, over the soffits.
Unless your floors stop at the exterior wall and you have access to the soffits, you'll have to cut thru those boards

The wider spaced vents in the aluminum soffit would allow some air flow to most of these holes - solving this problem. 

As long as the aluminum soffits are not butted up against the wood.