Sunday morning research from a pissed-off taxpayer

[Robert Pauly]

If you look at the graphs for 11th grade only (the only high school grade that is reported), no one is doing a great job where there are large numbers of low income or minority students.  No one has cracked the code.  Interesting stat I heard the other day: it takes 1.6 times the resources to properly educate a low income or minority student.  And we spend 0.6.  IMO, a flawed system, and you get what you pay for.

[chandasz]

Wow! Who knew teaching in a h.s. was so lucrative. I totally picked the wrong profession. Not only are the hours great and summers off but the pay is great.

So-- as morton continues to push out students ill-prepared to meet the demands of earning a similar wage-- their salaries continue to go up. Wow. That is depressing.

I know that as my daughters get older-- we will be evaluating the cost of private school vs. moving.

Yes-- god forbid Berwyn actually wants to admit that OP has an enviable school district.

Now that I'm looking at the costs of private education-- those OP property taxes are not looking so bad.

What is the beef that Berwyn has with OP anyway? Never understood this one.

[Bonster]

chandasz-   What do you think about NBgoddess' opinion-

http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=5893.msg101722#msg101722 ; (and her following three posts)?


In a nutshell, she believes at Morton the kids have a better chance of getting into any college, as they'll be one of few in the top percentile (as opposed to being "one of many" in an Oak Park school).  I posted a story in that thread from markberwyn's wife, who went from MW to U of I back in the 90s and encountered some interesting issues with respect to her access and education.

[chandasz]

I don't really want my kids to be the cream rising to the top in a bad environment. I want them to be rising to the top in a GOOD environment where the majority of kids are sharing values of success and achievement.

I want my kids to be going to a school where they are well-equipped to handle the challenges of college and the one thing I have heard over and over from some Morton Grads (not all but more than a few).... is that they did not feel well-equipped. That idea of being a big fish in a small pond is fine and dandy until you are thrown into the sea and eaten by the bigger fish....

I want my children to be in a school that rises above mediocrity as a whole.

I understand her point but it's just not how I feel

[Ted]

If you look at the graphs for 11th grade only (the only high school grade that is reported), no one is doing a great job where there are large numbers of low income or minority students.  ... 

  Bob, you're right.  I did not look at that combo box with the 11th grade tests selection.  It does not match up.

I think the overall graph covers grades 9 through 12 and all subjects (not just math and reading).  I think the 11th grade graphs cover only the 11th grade and only reading and math.

  It is interesting that the other districts fall so much when only the 11th grade reading and math scores are graphed.

Ted

[Robert Pauly]

There are nine, large (+2000 students) high schools in Illinois with Latino populations of at least 60%.  Feast on these test results (% of students passing state tests):

Curie 36%
Morton West 33%
Aurora East 26%
Waukegan 26%
Morton East 20%
Farragut 18%
Kelly 22%
Schurz 20%
Clemente 13%

So if you think that D201 alone is having difficulties in educating Latino students, you would be incorrect.

If you think that the entire, colossal state of Illinois is having difficulties in educating Latino students, you would be correct.

As I stated in another thread, it takes 60% MORE to educate low income and minority students.  We don't spend more, in fact, we are the lowest spending high school district in Cook County, with three failed tax referendums to our credit.

So I ask: what do you expect?

And if you think that making disparaging remarks about the teachers or churning the board (again) is going to solve our problems, you best high tail it to another county or begin sending those contributions to Fenwick.

[mustang54]

  Thanks for that post Robert i was thinkin the same things but you said it better than i could and you had numbers to back it up. Now add in the section 8 road scholars that Daley has forced west and the numbers get even worse.

[mcaryl]

chandasz-   What do you think about NBgoddess' opinion-

http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=5893.msg101722#msg101722  (and her following three posts)?


In a nutshell, she believes at Morton the kids have a better chance of getting into any college, as they'll be one of few in the top percentile (as opposed to being "one of many" in an Oak Park school).  I posted a story in that thread from markberwyn's wife, who went from MW to U of I back in the 90s and encountered some interesting issues with respect to her access and education.

This is actually interesting in theory as many schools do go by GPA when admitting students. I think any disparity in performance is in the end evened out by an ACT Score, which all students in Illinois take. As a graduate of Morton West, many students in my classes (Honors Track) did receive upper 20's and the occasional 30+. I think the case with Morton is same with many schools, in the fact that success is the responsibility of the student, not the school. Too many people on this board are giving Morton the cold shoulder due to average test scores. It seems as though the individuals on the board do not represent the "undesirable" element of our community that fails to realize the importance of education. Statistics are the average of community and one should take into account the ability of one's child to succeed as that is the responsibility of both the child and the parent.

[OakParkSpartan]

chandasz-   What do you think about NBgoddess' opinion-

http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=5893.msg101722#msg101722  (and her following three posts)?


In a nutshell, she believes at Morton the kids have a better chance of getting into any college, as they'll be one of few in the top percentile (as opposed to being "one of many" in an Oak Park school).  I posted a story in that thread from markberwyn's wife, who went from MW to U of I back in the 90s and encountered some interesting issues with respect to her access and education.

This is actually interesting in theory as many schools do go by GPA when admitting students. I think any disparity in performance is in the end evened out by an ACT Score, which all students in Illinois take. As a graduate of Morton West, many students in my classes (Honors Track) did receive upper 20's and the occasional 30+. I think the case with Morton is same with many schools, in the fact that success is the responsibility of the student, not the school. Too many people on this board are giving Morton the cold shoulder due to average test scores. It seems as though the individuals on the board do not represent the "undesirable" element of our community that fails to realize the importance of education. Statistics are the average of community and one should take into account the ability of one's child to succeed as that is the responsibility of both the child and the parent.

I don' think test scores are the sole reason.  There is also the question of the safety of people's children.  If you have a choice to send your kids to a school with large numbers of gang members, or one with very few, which would you choose?  I suspect there is a correlation between gangs and performance.

[Bonster]

...many students in my classes (Honors Track) did receive upper 20's and the occasional 30+.
Statistics are the average of community and one should take into account the ability of one's child to succeed as that is the responsibility of both the child and the parent.

That is true...but...while that community's needs should be addressed at the elementary school level, it's the intermediate level students who appear to be suffering. 
Not everyone has parents whom are or can be that involved, and not all students are so naturally gifted and/or motivated that honors classes are a given - even with that involvement.  Parents naturally look to schools which have better quality peer groups and test scores which reflect that population.

The other interesting issue is what was raised by this person, who joined up with others at U of I (early 90s?). 
They found those from other schools appeared to be better prepared for the experience:
http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=1075.msg16746#msg16746

[mcaryl]

I guess that is true. It does seem as if our students, especially those in the middle are the ones that fall through the cracks. Unfortunately, we have many students whose parents have as little as a 4th grade education. To some of those parents, getting the child into high school is an accomplishment. For others, they expect the school to do everything except make their dinner.


As for the preparedness for college, I think that simply receiving a diploma is not enough. If a student does not intellectually stimulate themselves outside of school, they will not be prepared. A parent does not need to be involved with their child's school if they were doing their job in the first place. I understand some parents need to work, but priorities need to be made. Maybe if more parents in our area understood this, then those who already do wouldn't want to send their children elsewhere. Parents should want the best for their children, that's the way it should be.

[sciapod]

As I stated in another thread, it takes 60% MORE to educate low income and minority students.  We don't spend more, in fact, we are the lowest spending high school district in Cook County, with three failed tax referendums to our credit.

So I ask: what do you expect?

What was the percentage increase that was voted down?

Just speculating ... if the median family income of Berwyn is $51,000 (vs $81,000 in Oak Park), and the families of these lo-income students moved to Berwyn for the low housing cost and property taxes -- why wouldn't the property-tax funding of the school represent the town demographic? Not that it should in any kind of long view, but it sounds like a catch-22.

The two issues that stand out for me are: 1) school funding = property tax, 2) a union teacher salary scale that rewards based on longevity instead of performance (and too easily gamed by featherweight degrees that add little value). 

Good point about school scores not telling the whole story.

[ZORBA]

There are nine, large (+2000 students) high schools in Illinois with Latino populations of at least 60%.  Feast on these test results (% of students passing state tests):

Curie 36%
Morton West 33%
Aurora East 26%
Waukegan 26%
Morton East 20%
Farragut 18%
Kelly 22%
Schurz 20%
Clemente 13%

So if you think that D201 alone is having difficulties in educating Latino students, you would be incorrect.

If you think that the entire, colossal state of Illinois is having difficulties in educating Latino students, you would be correct.

As I stated in another thread, it takes 60% MORE to educate low income and minority students.  We don't spend more, in fact, we are the lowest spending high school district in Cook County, with three failed tax referendums to our credit.

So I ask: what do you expect?

And if you think that making disparaging remarks about the teachers or churning the board (again) is going to solve our problems, you best high tail it to another county or begin sending those contributions to Fenwick.

How much difficulty is the state of Illinois having educating Polish students?

Because I know a few of those schools on your list (Curie, Kelly, Schurz) along with a few others (Foreman, Steinmetz) have significant Polish populations as well.

[Robert Pauly]

There are nine, large (+2000 students) high schools in Illinois with Latino populations of at least 60%.  Feast on these test results (% of students passing state tests):

Curie 36%
Morton West 33%
Aurora East 26%
Waukegan 26%
Morton East 20%
Farragut 18%
Kelly 22%
Schurz 20%
Clemente 13%

So if you think that D201 alone is having difficulties in educating Latino students, you would be incorrect.

If you think that the entire, colossal state of Illinois is having difficulties in educating Latino students, you would be correct.

As I stated in another thread, it takes 60% MORE to educate low income and minority students.  We don't spend more, in fact, we are the lowest spending high school district in Cook County, with three failed tax referendums to our credit.

So I ask: what do you expect?

And if you think that making disparaging remarks about the teachers or churning the board (again) is going to solve our problems, you best high tail it to another county or begin sending those contributions to Fenwick.

How much difficulty is the state of Illinois having educating Polish students?

Because I know a few of those schools on your list (Curie, Kelly, Schurz) along with a few others (Foreman, Steinmetz) have significant Polish populations as well.

You need to recalibrate your Polish-o-Meter.  % Latino students:

Curie: 70%, Morton West: 68%, Aurora East: 80%, Waukegan: 66%, Morton East: 95%, Farragut: 79%, Kelly: 82%, Schurz: 81%, Clemente: 62%

I smell chorizo, not kielbasa.

[ZORBA]

Well, you could smell bratwurst, cevapi, loukaniko, salccic, also. It doesn't matter. I simply asked if the state is having similar problems educating Polsih kids. There are only two possible answers, yes or no.Not statistics on kielbasa and chorizo.

[Robert Pauly]

As I stated in another thread, it takes 60% MORE to educate low income and minority students.  We don't spend more, in fact, we are the lowest spending high school district in Cook County, with three failed tax referendums to our credit.

So I ask: what do you expect?

What was the percentage increase that was voted down?

Just speculating ... if the median family income of Berwyn is $51,000 (vs $81,000 in Oak Park), and the families of these lo-income students moved to Berwyn for the low housing cost and property taxes -- why wouldn't the property-tax funding of the school represent the town demographic? Not that it should in any kind of long view, but it sounds like a catch-22.

The two issues that stand out for me are: 1) school funding = property tax, 2) a union teacher salary scale that rewards based on longevity instead of performance (and too easily gamed by featherweight degrees that add little value). 

Good point about school scores not telling the whole story.

I don't remember the numbers, but the tax referendum got hammered each time - worse each time.

The bottom line is this: our schools are dominated by a demographic that is extremely challenging to educate.  As I pointed out earlier in this thread, no one - let me repeat - NO ONE in the state has cracked the code on how to properly educate these kids - if you think the problems are unique to Morton, you are wrong.  The problem starts in infancy - the lack of parental education, sophistication and involvement which results in low IQ, inadequate preschool resources which which result in a 1 year achievement gap for first graders, unsuccessful catch up strategies at the elementary school level which result in catastrophe at the high school level.  When many of your eighth graders read at the fifth grade level, chances for success in high school are nil.

Educators have cracked the code in other communities.  Essentially, this involves providing at risk children with more resources, not less.  Smaller class sizes, longer school days, weeks and years, etc.  It's estimated that these children require 1.6 times the resources of middle income, white children, as I stated earlier in this thread.

So what do we do?  Some possible solutions, in descending order of probability: community supported tax referendum, state funding reform, gentrification and state takeover / mandated tax increase.

[Robert Pauly]

Well, you could smell bratwurst, cevapi, loukaniko, salccic, also. It doesn't matter. I simply asked if the state is having similar problems educating Polsih kids. There are only two possible answers, yes or no.Not statistics on kielbasa and chorizo.

Your anectdotal musings about phantom "significant Polish populations" prove once again that you are full of baloney.

[ZORBA]

Mr. Pauly,

I see youi evade the question once again.

  Does the state of Illinois fail in educating Polish children?

Btw, I'd like to know the percentage of Polish students in the aforemenmtioned schools, along with Foreman and Steinmetz.

[Robert Pauly]

Mr. Pauly,

I see youi evade the question once again.

  Does the state of Illinois fail in educating Polish children?

Btw, I'd like to know the percentage of Polish students in the aforemenmtioned schools, along with Foreman and Steinmetz.

As we all know, the state doesn't measure Poles.  It measures whites.  Here's the percentages of whites in the schools you mention: Curie 6%, Kelly 3%, Schurz 8%, Foreman 8%, Steinmetz 12%.

And since these percentages are so small, and based on your statement "Because I know a few of those schools on your list (Curie, Kelly, Schurz) along with a few others (Foreman, Steinmetz) have significant Polish populations as well.", one could assume that most of the white students are Polish, no?

Here's their white reading performance (state average 65%): Curie 59%, Kelly 27%, Schurz 47%, Foreman 3%, Steinmetz 30%

And their white math performance (state average 64%): Curie 62%, Kelly 13%, Schurz 10%, Foreman 17%, Steinmetz 35%

So yes, if your statement is correct, the state is failing in educating Poles in these schools, too.

[MRS. NORTHSIDER]

I'm sure any Polish kids who attend those schools are listed as white in terms of the school demographics.  If their English is poor they are categorized as "llimited English proficient" and then have to receive services under state law.  BTW, I attended Foreman and from what I understand from people who I still know in the city most of those kids are attending either St. Pat's or Guerin or another Catholic HS if their parents can swing it.