Insulation question

[chandasz]

So, we have a converted attic. It's been a living space for a very long time.

In the winters- we are getting ice on the inside walls that lead from the back of the kitchen upstairs along the 2 outside walls.

I believe the walls are plaster.

I understand that we could still get some sort of blow in insulation for these 2 walls without too much damage to the stairway.

Any recommendations? How much would something like this cost?

[rbain]

Sounds like you guys need to make a little more of your own heat up there...

[chandasz]

hahaha. coming from a basement dweller. LOL

[LOL]

I think you can either DIY or hire a contractor for the blow-in insulation (you can rent the machine and buy the insulation). We've talked about it, but not done it yet. We don't use our upstairs area much, so it's not high on our list yet. . .

[chandasz]

I am SO not the DIY type. LOL. I am trying to find out who does this so I can hire someone.

I still am trying to figure out how/when to fix the cracks in my kitchen ceiling/walls and paint so I don't think insulating would be something I could even attempt.... HA

[jake]

Just to be clear, you are considering adding insulation to the walls and not the ceiling, correct?  Are these kneewalls with unconditioned space behind them or true exterior walls? 
Another option to the cellulose you mentioned is the low expansion foam, but it is more expensive than the loose fill stuff.

Is the ice from interior moisture freezing or something else?

[watcher]

So, we have a converted attic. It's been a living space for a very long time.

In the winters- we are getting ice on the inside walls that lead from the back of the kitchen upstairs along the 2 outside walls.

I believe the walls are plaster.

I understand that we could still get some sort of blow in insulation for these 2 walls without too much damage to the stairway.

Any recommendations? How much would something like this cost?

Two thoughts. You have a moisture problem. You have a ventilation problem.
Adding insulation will not really address either.

Your description makes it difficult to assess? Any chance of a picture?

"Converted attic space" can mean many things. If the walls are plaster, the conversion was likely done ages ago.
There is a problem when trying to blow insulation into plaster walls because the void to be filled will not have a vapor barrier. What you gain in reduced conduction (cold to warm), you lose in the loss of ventilation and wind up with problems.

I'd say the first step in solving the icing up would be to figure out the cause, then proceed from there.

[dukesdad]

Insulation may not be the answer. Try these guys:  http://www.schmidtexteriors.com/  Insulation is one of their specialties. They came out and gave us a realistic assessment of what our attic options are. We ultimately decided to do nothing, the guy did not disagree or apply any pressure.

[Robert Pauly]

Duke - what were you trying to do - your attic is unfinished, right?

We just finished insulating / venting our unfinished attic, which turned out to be quite the project, in terms of both $ and time.  Not as simple as one might think.

[dukesdad]

I was thinking about insulating the attic. We would have to pull the floor of the attic up to do it, we have the attic full of crap (my wife would disagree). Moving everything, pulling the floor up, insulating, and putting everything back is just not worth the time, aggravation and money.

[MindoverMatter]

We are planning on do this to our attic too...but we will be putting in new drywall.  Looking for other options also.

[Robert Pauly]

Let me know when you're doing it - thanks to Bons, jake and a few others, I think I did it the correct way.

[Bonster]

With regards to the moisture question, the latest/greatest closed-cell foams are impervious to moisture and inherently act as their own vapor barriers.  They are also more expensive than the other solutions.

Some types of cellulose, and all styles of fiberglass fill are subject to moisture problems which ultimately lead to ... mold and settling of materials.  Not too long ago spray vapor barriers were used prior to filling walls since drywall is moisture permeable, and old plaster easily cracks.  I'd ask about this before choosing a product.  In unfinished attics, even with tongue-in-groove flooring, it's not an issue.

The mere presence of moisture in the form of ice might not necessarily be indicative of a moisture issue, just a symptom of uninsulated walls.  If your windows are icing, then yes - you need to adjust your humidistat settings!  As the heat is rising up to your attic it's carrying the water vapor with it, which is condensing and freezing on the cold surfaces. 

When we upgraded our HVAC system it was apparent the venting in our (unfinished) attic was lacking.  The lack of a seal at the kitchen entrance (and perhaps, the wife's cooking? ) resulted in frosting on the lower portions of the inside of our roof deck (most of which cleared upon opening the attic windows).

[chandasz]

I'll take a pic of the stairwell. Not sure how it could be a ventillation issue since it is open to the upstairs-- which is a FULL living area. 3 rooms and a full bath.

The 2 walls that are along the outside walls actually form ice on them in the winter

[Bonster]

Venting/ventilation refers to unconditioned spaces (i.e. storage space, space between ceiling and roof deck, etc.).

Note that closed cell foams used today negate the need for venting the roof deck for ice dam avoidance.  They provide such a high R-value and vapor seal it's been proven there's little to no temperature difference from ridge to edge when applied properly.

[jake]

I'll take a pic of the stairwell. Not sure how it could be a ventillation issue since it is open to the upstairs-- which is a FULL living area. 3 rooms and a full bath.

The 2 walls that are along the outside walls actually form ice on them in the winter

The ice needed moisture to form, otherwise it would just be cold air.

Can you confirm that these are not kneewalls (with unconditioned attic space behind them), but true exterior walls?

Here is a youtube video on the retrofit slow rise foam (they turned off imbedding)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQ9AnnwP-sE&feature=related

[jake]

Venting/ventilation refers to unconditioned spaces (i.e. storage space, space between ceiling and roof deck, etc.).

Note that closed cell foams used today negate the need for venting the roof deck for ice dam avoidance.  They provide such a high R-value and vapor seal it's been proven there's little to no temperature difference from ridge to edge when applied properly.

I agree it is the best product out there...but very expensensive.

Did you use it anywhere?  If so was it DIY (e.g. TigerFoam) or contractor applied? 

[watcher]

I'll take a pic of the stairwell. Not sure how it could be a ventillation issue since it is open to the upstairs-- which is a FULL living area. 3 rooms and a full bath.

The 2 walls that are along the outside walls actually form ice on them in the winter

A picture would really be worth a thousand words, but it still sounds like two different issues combining to form ice.

Is the upstairs bathroom your main use (daily showers) one? If so, is it properly ventilated? If it is not, that's likely where the
moisture is originating. A bathroom vent fan with a timer to allow adequate removal of moisture rather than a switch you turn off as you leave the room is needed.

The other issue is conduction. Some kind of thermal break has to be absent from those two walls in order to provide a surface on which ice can form. This break can either be internally or externally applied. Higher R-value isn't as important as the effectiveness of the break.

Because heat/cold/moisture provide environment for mold, mildew and other unwanted side-effects it's important to address all of the factors.

You might want to consider having an "energy audit" done. This typically involves closing up the house, pressurizing it and finding all the ways you're leaking. They also use infra-red photography to identify hot and cold spots.

Having an understanding of your home's "breathing" can actually be fun and doesn't always require expensive, high-tech solutions.

[jake]

You might want to consider having an "energy audit" done. This typically involves closing up the house, pressurizing it and finding all the ways you're leaking. They also use infra-red photography to identify hot and cold spots.

Having an understanding of your home's "breathing" can actually be fun and doesn't always require expensive, high-tech solutions.

Yep.  I bet you can reduce the air infiltration by 75% with a few cartridges of caulk and a few cans of Great Stuff or DAP Tex.

[Bonster]

Venting/ventilation refers to unconditioned spaces (i.e. storage space, space between ceiling and roof deck, etc.).

Note that closed cell foams used today negate the need for venting the roof deck for ice dam avoidance.  They provide such a high R-value and vapor seal it's been proven there's little to no temperature difference from ridge to edge when applied properly.

I agree it is the best product out there...but very expensensive.

Did you use it anywhere?  If so was it DIY (e.g. TigerFoam) or contractor applied? 

I haven't used it but know someone in Berwyn who used it (contractor applied) when creating a vaulted ceiling.  They are extremely happy with the results.