1/2/2007 Budget Committee Meeting

[Count DMC]

I would prefer the messiness of democracy and having 8 people on the city council who think independently rather than a strong leader with puppets - no matter WHAT the time period or circumstances.

If you think all of these guys are acting independently of each other you are sadly mistaken. There are clear cut alliances formed already. The coming election will show that, but watch closely and you will see who will support whom. Have you been to any fundraisers or parties outside of the IVB and seen some of the fence jumpers? I have and it's pretty hilarious. The IVB is DEAD, one and out. There is no viable candidate and will be no viable candidate, your own elected party members  have ensured that.

Aside from the paltry scraps he has thrown from his table what has King Michael done for the city? For Christ's sake they couldn't even get the Christmas tree lit, IDIOTS!!! More patronage hiring, check. Gross ineptitude on par with last admin, check. No forward progress and lack of council cooperation, check. Half answers, or no answers when questioned on inappropriate matters, check.

[Ted]

If you think all of these guys are acting independently of each other you are sadly mistaken. There are clear cut alliances formed already. The coming election will show that, but watch closely and you will see who will support whom. Have you been to any fundraisers or parties outside of the IVB and seen some of the fence jumpers? I have and it's pretty hilarious. The IVB is DEAD, one and out. There is no viable candidate and will be no viable candidate, your own elected party members  have ensured that.

Aside from the paltry scraps he has thrown from his table what has King Michael done for the city? For Christ's sake they couldn't even get the Christmas tree lit, IDIOTS!!! More patronage hiring, check. Gross ineptitude on par with last admin, check. No forward progress and lack of council cooperation, check. Half answers, or no answers when questioned on inappropriate matters, check.

Count,

  I actually said "thinking independently", not "acting independently."   There is a difference between the two verbs. As Scoon is fond of saying, reading is an art.

  I have attended city council meetings and I have seen the voting patterns. That doesn't mean people aren't thinking independently or voting in the way they think will make Berwyn a better place.  I don't think there is anyone on the current city council who is a puppet or votes a certain way because so-and-so told them to vote a certain way.

  And, that was my point - Despite the personal attacks, we no longer have 8 puppets on the city council blindly voting in lockstep for fear their sons or brothers or family members would lose jobs with the city.

  As for the death of the IVB, as Mark Twain said, reports of the IVB death have been greatly exagerated. There are still 2 years to go and 2 years is a long time in politics.  Since the IVB is now an established party, I believe candidates will come forward to run if other people elected under the IVB banner jump ship. The hard part is getting a new party started.  Once started, given the laws of the state of Illinois, it is easier to keep an established party going than establish a new one.   

  As for what has been accomplished, I listed that in a previous post on this discussion thread.  We have a professional police chief who has experience in fighting gangs and we are rid of the gestapo unit. We have finally audited the books and know where we stand financially.  And we no longer have any puppets on the city council.

  That is a hell of a lot better than the mess the BRDO left us when the IVB was elected.

[Bonster]

  I disagree.  I would prefer the messiness of democracy and having 8 people on the city council who think independently rather than a strong leader with puppets - no matter WHAT the time period or circumstances.

Well then, it follows that the problem would be with your leader.
And what are we lacking now?  Leadership. 
Lack of direction leading to stagnation is worse than strong leadership. 

  Look at Berwyn in the 1990s - we had single party rule where the  head of the party also controlled the police department and

You are effectively stating Kushner would either be a) out of a job, or b) easily swayed by another party in office.  I trust by his experience he knows better.
After losing in '05 and the aforementioned changes (your points 1 and 2), I fear not the past rearing it's ugly head;s I fear more the present head, showing few to no signs of improvement. 
What improvements are taking place seem to be doing so despite this motley crew of so-called independent thinkers...

The electorate can change the form of government through the referendum process - get a petition signed by 5% of the registered voters in Berwyn (around 1200 signatures) and you could put a binding referendum on the ballot to change the form of government. There is no need to get city council approval.

That's a last resort, and involves convincing the voting public that our leaders do not realize what is best for our city.

[Ted]

Lack of direction leading to stagnation is worse than strong leadership. 

  That depends on whether the "strong leadership" is using brown-shirt tactics against its political foes just to stay in power or it is using its "strong leadership" to move Berwyn forward. If the "strong leadership" exists only to harass its political enemies and stay in power, you would also get stagnation. Besides, if you had been on the receiving end of the BPD's gestapo unit in the 1990s and early 00's, then I think you would be a lot more worried about the brown-shirts returning.

You are effectively stating Kushner would either be a) out of a job, or b) easily swayed by another party in office.  I trust by his experience he knows better.

Huh?  I don't understand your point??  I am not saying either thing.

What improvements are taking place seem to be doing so despite this motley crew of so-called independent thinkers...

  The crew may be motley, but I don't think it can be denied that are thinking independently and not acting like puppets.

  The electorate can change the form of government through the referendum process - get a petition signed by 5% of the registered voters in Berwyn (around 1200 signatures) and you could put a binding referendum on the ballot to change the form of government. There is no need to get city council approval.

That's a last resort, and involves convincing the voting public that our leaders do not realize what is best for our city.

  Actually, I think a change in the form of government would have to go before the voters via a referendum regardless.  So it really doesn't matter whether it gets on the ballot by city council approval or by petition.  Either way, the voters get to vote on it.

[Count DMC]

Now Ted which was it under the Old Admin, Brown Shirts or Gestapo? As both were separate entities?

And thinking and acting independently can now be separated by a fine laser? If I act independently I must not be thinking independently or is it the other way around? I love to play semantics with people. And stop throwing out the boogie man stories will ya. Its been almost two years and all you can say is the new guys aren't as bad as the old? New police chief? Yeah!!! I'm glad Big Mike had this guy waiting in the wings for just this occasion, what did he have him in a "break in case Marzullo leaves box?"

I've seen sycophants before but never on your level. Again your party is DEAD, and not by the hand of some evil cabal run by Marzullo. But by your own incompetent,self righteous, arrogant leader. The next few months will prove this out Teddy boy, stay tuned!!

[P-PANTHER a/k/a La Pantera]

Sycophants?

Impressive Count, impressive.

Now if you could only tell me the words origin without googling or referencing it first.

[OakParkSpartan]

Ted,

I'm not sure if you had attended  the last council you would be so strong on the acting/thinking  independently  statements.  The resident nut case was on the phone, and after most votes, he'd ask how everyone  else voted.  Then he'd vote.  Didn't seem to matter what the topic was, just who he followed.

Cheers,
Brian

PS. By definition, the nut case is a  bad example, I know.

[Count DMC]

Sycophants?

Impressive Count, impressive.

Now if you could only tell me the words origin without googling or referencing it first.

Wow Andy do you believe yourself the only learned one here? Interesting. The times I have been introduced to you I never got that impression of you.

[P-PANTHER a/k/a La Pantera]

Brian,

Do you ever get the feeling that some things that are said and/or done in Berwyn could not be scripted better even in a movie? 

[P-PANTHER a/k/a La Pantera]

count,

I'm not questioning your intellect. Not at all. I'm simply asking if you're aware of the words origin? There's a specific reason I ask. The mere fact that you know how to spell and utilize the word in context says enough.

[Count DMC]

Of the words origin, no.

[Ted]

Ted,

I'm not sure if you had attended  the last council you would be so strong on the acting/thinking  independently  statements.  The resident nut case was on the phone, and after most votes, he'd ask how everyone  else voted.  Then he'd vote.  Didn't seem to matter what the topic was, just who he followed.

Cheers,
Brian

PS. By definition, the nut case is a  bad example, I know.

Brian, my only point was that no one on the city council is a puppet, not even the "nut case."  You do have to admit that the "nut case" is thinking and acting independently.

Ted

[Ted]

Now Ted which was it under the Old Admin, Brown Shirts or Gestapo? As both were separate entities?

  No, same entity.  Same group of police officers who were supposed to be protecting the public but instead did Marzullo's bidding and harassed Marzullo's supposed enemies.

....   And stop throwing out the boogie man stories will ya. Its been almost two years and all you can say is the new guys aren't as bad as the old? New police chief? Yeah!!! I'm glad Big Mike had this guy waiting in the wings for just this occasion, what did he have him in a "break in case Marzullo leaves box?"

  Why should I stop?  Why are you afraid of the truth?  Am I hitting too close to home with my remarks?

...  I've seen sycophants before but never on your level. Again your party is DEAD, and not by the hand of some evil cabal run by Marzullo. But by your own incompetent,self righteous, arrogant leader. The next few months will prove this out Teddy boy, stay tuned!!

  Next few months?   It is 27 months until the next election.  That is a long time in politics, as I have said before.  We will see what happens.

[Berwyn Patsy]

The majority of the city council are acting and thinking and voting against the Mayor because they have no respect for him and dislike him so.  Bottom line how can a city survive with such disorganization and chaos every day?
Yes, we have come along way and I am not so sure it's because we have a new Mayor, it was time for all of Berwyn to change and all the voters knew this.  
We can still continue to improve, but new real leadership is needed.  I think that's what a lot of voters are seeing.

[Ted]

Sycophants?

Impressive Count, impressive.

Now if you could only tell me the words origin without googling or referencing it first.

syc·o·phant (sĭk'ə-fənt, sī'kə-)
n.
A servile self-seeker who attempts to win favor by flattering influential people.

[Latin s[ymacr]cophanta, informer, slanderer, from Greek sūkophantēs, informer, from sūkon phainein, to show a fig (probably originally said of denouncers of theft or exportation of figs) : sūkon, fig + phainein, to show.]

[P-PANTHER a/k/a La Pantera]

Good work, Ted.

The word is derived from:

syco-fig
phantis-one who has seen, observer.

It's believed to have originated from those who informed on growers of figs (banned at the the time).

In present usage, the common meaning is "suck up", for lack of a better term.

In modern Greek, however, the term (sycophantia) means something slightly different-a tall tale, untruth, slander, etc........

The reason I asked is because ironically enough that exact word was the subject of a recent conversation.

[Bonster]

I learned that word from a Motorhead song in the 80's. 
I do believe Lemme used it correctly.

[OakParkSpartan]

Ted,

If you had attended  this budget meeting, the reason why things have broken down would be crystal clear. 

Erickson wasn't acting independently, he was following  someone, I'm just not  sure who.

Cheers,
Brian

[Bonster]

It seems to me, OPS, that he isn't really  following the others - he just doesn't care.

[Dancing Queen]

 Boys and girls, please discount
The Count who cannot mount

He ain't no Robin Yount
His face is tight and gaunt

His "goods" he cannot flaunt
And, of knowledge, he's no fount

While he loves to daunt and jaunt
His scruples are most wont

And his brown-shirt past will continue to haunt
The Count who cannot mount

Alexandre Dumas