https://youtu.be/WFS3KnwuOzc (https://youtu.be/WFS3KnwuOzc)
Story or non-story? My guess is it's just the beginning. It's been picked up nationally.
Yes, there has been a LOT of discussion about this on Facebook, especially on the Berwyn Cool Kids site.
Surprisingly, a lot of defenders of the owner of Cigars and Stripes are defending this, claiming it was put up for Halloween and never taken down. But, there was another post saying that the owner put up the mirror in 2001.
"I will burn this fucking place to the ground before I get rid of that mirror." Old-school Berwynism strikes again.
http://jezebel.com/woman-uncovers-two-way-mirror-in-a-bar-bathroom-owner-1700336259 (http://jezebel.com/woman-uncovers-two-way-mirror-in-a-bar-bathroom-owner-1700336259)
Well, this story has gotten international coverage, including coverage in the U.K. and Australia.
The owner is a former wrestling manager, so some people are wondering if this was all a publicity stunt, both for the bar and for the female comic who made the video.
What surprised me most were all the posts on Facebook from Berwynites defending the owner. There was even a post called "I LOVE RONNIE" defending the owner which tens of people have LIKED.
Here was one comment by someone who knows the owner:
"Ronnie is a master at promotion & media. He lives for this stuff. Has anyone considered that he started this himself? If you know Ronnie, you know it's possible. Let's all agree that if you are offended by it, don't go to this bar. For the rest of us, it will not change a thing. There is no creeping going on there. The people who know. Know."
And here is a response:
"Been in a lot of ladies rooms in over 60 years. Not once have I been in a ladies room with a closet in it. THAT I can tell you for sure. I have watched Mr. Ronnie take posts down on the Cigars and Stripes Facebook page that explained to him why it is wrong. Without the person's name here was one of the posts: "I have a lot of friends who have attended shows at your business. I'm going to tell all of them about this. I know several of them will not have known about the supposedly obvious two-way mirror. Sure, it may sound far-fatched to have someone hide in there, but it would be pretty easy to hide a camera/phone inside. All I know is, I don't ever want to patronize an establishment where I have to check behind a door every time I have to take a piss, just to make sure there's nothing/nobody back there that shouldn't be. That's way too much work. So, I'll just have to keep on enjoying my comedy elsewhere." END Now consider movies Ronnie has been in with pal Vitio (they make movies) who the hell knows. Put the closet in the men's bathroom.
I just don't get the lack of concern. The bathroom is open all over. It has NO STALL per se. The door sits right across from the toilet. Anybody, even a woman, could for an evening set a camera behind that door. She could place it there for someone else, and then remove it and hand it over to someone at the end of the night. There are so many scenarios for doing something bad here. As far as nice guys go ... yeah ... lot's of nice guys get away with bullshit. That's the cover ... "I'm a nice guy". His language in response to concerns was totally unprofessional to the point he's talking about a woman's clitoris? come on How does the word "clitoris" fit in a response to reasonable concerns? Then tells someone to go fk themselves? Only in Berwyn."
And, here is an explanation from the owner:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/27/ronnie-lottz-two-way-mirror_n_7156874.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/27/ronnie-lottz-two-way-mirror_n_7156874.html?ncid=txtlnkusaolp00000592)
The owner of an Illinois bar is defending his decision to have a two-way mirror in a women's bathroom, saying the woman who took video of the mirror ruined his "fun house gag."
In a story first reported by Jezebel, female comic Tamale Rocks posted a video showing a two-way mirror in the women's bathroom at Berwyn bar and comedy club Cigars and Stripes. The owner, Ronnie Lottz, told the Huffington Post the mirror is staying.
In a recorded phone conversation, Lottz said the mirror was part of his "live art," and that the comic who posted the original video simply wanted attention.
"I have to tell you this: The woman who recorded that obviously has had a little difficulty with her career, and everybody is looking for that niche right now. They just gotta find that viral video," Lottz said.
Lottz says people go to his bar for a one-of-a-kind, funhouse experience. "I make a living on making people either very happy or take them out of their reality for a couple of hours of their life. My bar is promoted as haunted. I was in the professional wrestling business. I have a 10 foot mummy that was stolen."
The bar owner spoke to HuffPost from a beer garden at his establishment, where he said visitors could see Bigfoot's grave.
Rocks' video shows the mirror directly opposite of a women's toilet. All it takes is the turn of the knob to go to an adjacent room, which appeared to be a closet where anyone could watch others going into the restroom.
"I noticed a full-length mirror opposite of the toilet," Rocks wrote on the YouTube page. "Curious, I explored and discovered that it was two-way mirror, the door behind it cut away to allow an unobstructed view of the toilet...and anyone who may be using it."
Lottz said he simply expects women to check behind the door before going about their business.
"[Most of the women] in there will turn the doorknob and go 'there's nobody in there, I gotta pee' and there you go. Enough said."
The two-way mirror is only in the women's restroom, Lottz confirmed. The owner said he and his staff would never allow men in there -- not because of the mirror -- but because they "piss on the seats" and upset female customers.
Lottz said members of the Berwyn Police Department checked out his bathroom earlier in the day and they saw nothing wrong with it. A call to the department was not immediately returned.
The owner said the mirror originally had a monster that would "scare" female customers.
"What we do is we put a monster behind it, and we used to have a switch, and we hit the switch, and it lights up and the monster appears, and they come running out and it's big fun," he said.
Video of the incident shows the closet is empty.
"People have been playing with that mirror for 15 years now, I'm not taking it down," he said. "Period."
I've read a lot about this and I still don't understand how a two-way mirror in a women's restroom is either a "gag" or has something to do with Halloween. Somebody explain this to me like I'm 11.
What is old-school Berwyn-ism,never heard the term before and I am old!
Quote from: berwyn senator on April 28, 2015, 10:08:21 AM
What is old-school Berwyn-ism,never heard the term before and I am old!
The kind of attitude that brushes off this kind of behavior as no big deal, get over it, etc---that a boorish business owner's crudeness trumps whatever a woman thinks.
If you think the Cigars & Stripes owner's attitude is a-OK, then you're old-school Berwyn.
I never said the bar is O along with the ridiculous mirror this is not my kind of place.What a way of obtaining free advertisement.
Quote from: berwyn senator on April 28, 2015, 11:53:33 AM
I never said the bar is O along with the ridiculous mirror this is not my kind of place.What a way of obtaining free advertisement.
Your first instinct was to say that it's not a big deal.
A good question for old-school Berwynites to ask themselves: Why, when you first heard about this, was your first instinct to defend the business and diminish the seriousness of the owner's behavior?
FWIW, I think the BPD needs to own some of this too. What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?
Maybe a woman who's sexually harrassed in Berwyn should just learn to laugh it off and see the harrasser's side of things.
Just a thought: Do you think the owner would have been let off the hook so readily by the community and the police if he were black or Latino?
Nothing surprises me anymore,about Berwyn!!
I don't think this is "old Berwyn" versus "new Berwyn". For the quotes I posted above, the quote defending the owner is a new resident (a woman in her twenties) while the quote against the owner is a Berwyn resident in her 60s who has lived here all her life.
What did surprise me was so many woman (who are patrons of the bar) defending this. That shocked me most of all. And, most of them are in their 20s and 30, not old time Berwynites.
Quote from: markberwyn on April 28, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
Just a thought: Do you think the owner would have been let off the hook so readily by the community...?
What evidence do you have that the bar owner is being "let off the hook so readily by the community". Please provide some quotes from current Berwyn residents that you think represents the "community" thinking on this (as opposed to the police).
The posts on BCK (except for the bar's patrons) seem to be more against the owner than for. The only ones who seem to be defending the owner are the bar's patrons.
In fact, if anything, I would say it is the old time Berwynites who are most critical of the owner while a younger generation seem to be more OK with it.
Quote from: Ted on April 28, 2015, 06:54:26 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on April 28, 2015, 03:26:21 PM
Just a thought: Do you think the owner would have been let off the hook so readily by the community...?
What evidence do you have that the bar owner is being "let off the hook so readily by the community". Please provide some quotes from current Berwyn residents that you think represents the "community" thinking on this (as opposed to the police).
I'd link to the comments on Cigars & Stripes' Facebook page linking to the Jezebel article---lots of people telling people complaining to shut up, "sjw," and that sort of crap. Alas, C&S decided to delete that post.
You say the people defending the owner are the bar's patrons. Presumably Berwynites, no?
In any event, defending the owner's (and the police's) behavior strikes me as more in keeping with old-Berwyn attitudes. Or are you telling me Berwyn has traditionally been a progressive community? C'mon now.
I might also add that being an "old-school Berwynite" isn't strictly a function of age. I think we all remember a relatively young former poster here who enthusiastically endorsed police brutality and couldn't live a "normal life" here because he saw blacks and Latinos in Berwyn.
It may be that there's no such thing as "new Berwyn." Just cops and bar patrons and other residents with the same retrograde values as the previous generations.
You should read the posts on BCK. One of the defenders of the owner is what I would describe as a "progressive" type and one of the people most critical of the owner is a life-long Berwyn resident who most would describe as a right wing conservative.
So, your argument doesn't hold water. In fact, I see just the opposite. People with those "old school Berwynite" attitudes are the ones most vociferous in criticizing the owners while newer Berwynites with progressive attitudes who patronize the bar are the ones defending the owner.
As for comments on the C&S Facebook page, they don't represent Berwyn as a community. They represent the patrons of the bar, not Berwyn as a whole.
Quote from: Ted on April 29, 2015, 05:04:13 AM
You should read the posts on BCK. One of the defenders of the owner is what I would describe as a "progressive" type and one of the people most critical of the owner is a life-long Berwyn resident who most would describe as a right wing conservative.
So, your argument doesn't hold water. In fact, I see just the opposite. People with those "old school Berwynite" attitudes are the ones most vociferous in criticizing the owners while newer Berwynites with progressive attitudes who patronize the bar are the ones defending the owner.
As for comments on the C&S Facebook page, they don't represent Berwyn as a community. They represent the patrons of the bar, not Berwyn as a whole.
I can't read the BCK posts because I'm not a member, but if you see what you see, then I stand corrected. No idea how defending this behavior counts as "progressive," though.
Anyhow, the real proof that a "new Berwyn" sensibility is prevailing is if the owner delivers an apology and if the police forces him to take down the mirror.
Quote from: markberwyn on April 29, 2015, 06:50:36 AM
... No idea how defending this behavior counts as "progressive," though.
I didn't say that defending the behavior is "progressive". I said the woman defending the owner was a progressive type.
It seems like the defenders are mostly people who know the owner. And, we can't really know whether the people posting on the C&S site are Berwynites. Those comments could be coming from anywhere in the world.
Anyone else liken the personality of the owner to Drew Peterson? Very eerie....
I think the cops have not found a way to get him on anything. They went there and could not find a reason to make him remove it. I think they would if they could. Perhaps they are conferring in the city on how to do it. Given the fact that Berwyn inspectors are all over every two flat owner and bungalow owner for any little infraction against city code, how can the City of Berwyn allow this? Methinks they just have not found something in the code to gig him on.
Quote from: Ted on April 29, 2015, 08:17:16 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on April 29, 2015, 06:50:36 AM
... No idea how defending this behavior counts as "progressive," though.
I didn't say that defending the behavior is "progressive". I said the woman defending the owner was a progressive type.
Defending a man who is gleefully giving people the opportunity to watch women who enter a restroom with a reasonable expectation of privacy is pretty much the opposite of progressive thought. What on earth makes this person so "progressive"?
Quote from: Toria on April 29, 2015, 09:00:22 AM
I think the cops have not found a way to get him on anything. They went there and could not find a reason to make him remove it. I think they would if they could. Perhaps they are conferring in the city on how to do it. Given the fact that Berwyn inspectors are all over every two flat owner and bungalow owner for any little infraction against city code, how can the City of Berwyn allow this? Methinks they just have not found something in the code to gig him on.
People have a reasonable expectation of privacy when they enter a restroom. They only thing stopping Berwyn from making the owner take that mirror down is the fact that the mirror is in Berwyn.
Quote from: markberwyn on April 29, 2015, 11:07:53 AM
Defending a man who is gleefully giving people the opportunity to watch women who enter a restroom with a reasonable expectation of privacy is pretty much the opposite of progressive thought. What on earth makes this person so "progressive"?
I said she was a "progressive type". I didn't say she was "progressive".
She is a vegan, works in the arts and generally has liberal political views. That is why I characterized her as a "progressive type".
I also wouldn't characterize her defense as "gleeful". She apparently knows the owner, thinks the owner is quirky and that this is part of his quirkiness and thinks it's no big deal.
I am continued to be surprised at how many women are defending the owner.
I don't think this issue is breaking conservative versus liberal, as you seem to think it should. Lots of people who are conservative are criticizing the owner while many people who are young, hip and liberal are saying it's no big deal and there are worse things in the world.
Interview with the comedian (Tamale Rocks) that posted this on the internet:
http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/tamale-rocks-interview-with-steve-touhy-tony-carr_46350 (http://www.podcastgarden.com/episode/tamale-rocks-interview-with-steve-touhy-tony-carr_46350)
Quote from: Ted on April 30, 2015, 06:05:20 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on April 29, 2015, 11:07:53 AM
Defending a man who is gleefully giving people the opportunity to watch women who enter a restroom with a reasonable expectation of privacy is pretty much the opposite of progressive thought. What on earth makes this person so "progressive"?
I said she was a "progressive type". I didn't say she was "progressive".
A distinction without a difference. C'mon, Ted.
Quote from: Ted on April 30, 2015, 06:05:20 AM
I don't think this issue is breaking conservative versus liberal, as you seem to think it should.
That's not how I'm thinking about it; this is more about civic sensibility than it is politics. Berwyn is a go-along-to-get-along kind of place when it comes to power---it's why nothing happens when a school superintendent uses public funds to Christianize staff, or when Sokol Tabor pretends it never had anything to do with a man accused of having child porn. Same thing here: The Berwyn police has endorsed a business that has a two-way mirror in its women's restroom. It may be that there are split opinions about how much this business owner ought to be empowered to humiliate women. But we all know that this is Berwyn we're talking about, and that the end result will be a man who's still free to use his business to humiliate women.
A few glimpses into the owner's mind:
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/305880323126878209
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/303335437097914370
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/191306557575798784
Why would any woman step foot inside this business now?
Wow! Why would anybody defend this jerk? Obviously a total disrespect towards women. We, as women, have worked too hard to allow someone like this to say what he says and to do what he does. Not cool at all. It really makes me angry that people would find this as acceptable behavior. Come on, Berwyn. Where are your values? Do better!
SICK!!!!!
Quote from: Suzy Q on April 30, 2015, 04:07:59 PM
Wow! Why would anybody defend this jerk? Obviously a total disrespect towards women. We, as women, have worked too hard to allow someone like this to say what he says and to do what he does. Not cool at all. It really makes me angry that people would find this as acceptable behavior. Come on, Berwyn. Where are your values? Do better!
Well, Suzy, a lot of Berwynites are defending the owner. This was posted in the last few hours on Facebook and has already received 36 LIKEs and a lot of people agreeing with the post:
So after all the drama about the mirror in Cigars and Stripes, I posted a 5 star review on their FB page. I enjoy it there. I just found it amazing how blown up it got via the media. Thought that atleast showing my support might help in some small way to shift negativity.
Some ass clown just had an argument with me on my review, however has never even been there. SMH! So if you enjoy Cigars & Stripes I recommend writing your own review on their FB page & Yelp.
Quote from: Ted on April 30, 2015, 06:05:20 AM
I said she was a "progressive type". I didn't say she was "progressive".
Quote from: markberwyn on April 30, 2015, 12:24:13 PM
A distinction without a difference. C'mon, Ted.
No, there is a distinction - "progressive" is a political philosophy and "progressive type" is a type of new age, artsy, hip kind of lifestyle.
Quote from: Ted on April 30, 2015, 05:58:17 PM
Quote from: Suzy Q on April 30, 2015, 04:07:59 PM
Wow! Why would anybody defend this jerk? Obviously a total disrespect towards women. We, as women, have worked too hard to allow someone like this to say what he says and to do what he does. Not cool at all. It really makes me angry that people would find this as acceptable behavior. Come on, Berwyn. Where are your values? Do better!
Well, Suzy, a lot of Berwynites are defending the owner. This was posted in the last few hours on Facebook and has already received 36 LIKEs and a lot of people agreeing with the post:
So after all the drama about the mirror in Cigars and Stripes, I posted a 5 star review on their FB page. I enjoy it there. I just found it amazing how blown up it got via the media. Thought that atleast showing my support might help in some small way to shift negativity.
Some ass clown just had an argument with me on my review, however has never even been there. SMH! So if you enjoy Cigars & Stripes I recommend writing your own review on their FB page & Yelp.
Why do I have to go to this place to see it for myself? Will it magically become less vile and misogynistic if I see it with my own eyes? I don't get this argument, and I see people making it a lot.
I can remember a few years back when bars in Berwyn had fashion shows,young girls in skimpy under wear parading around the bar???
Quote from: berwyn senator on April 30, 2015, 07:06:57 PM
I can remember a few years back when bars in Berwyn had fashion shows,young girls in skimpy under wear parading around the bar???
Yes, Senator, I remember that, although they called it a "fashion show"... LOL.
They're opening up a new restaurant at that place - it's going to be called George's.
Quote from: markberwyn on April 30, 2015, 06:58:37 PM
Why do I have to go to this place to see it for myself? Will it magically become less vile and misogynistic if I see it with my own eyes? I don't get this argument, and I see people making it a lot.
I don't get it either, Mark. It almost seems like a bunker mentality at this point. People who continue to criticize the owner are now being berated and demeaned by the defenders. It's getting ugly.
Again, the post above was from a young woman. That's what I just don't get. Maybe I just don't understand the way the Millenial brain works.
Interesting story about this from the Windy City Times. The woman (Tamale Rocks) who found the 2-way mirror was one of WCT's "30 under 30" in 2004.
http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/lgbt/Tamale-Rocks-exposes-2-way-mirror-in-club-restroom/51297.html (http://www.windycitymediagroup.com/lgbt/Tamale-Rocks-exposes-2-way-mirror-in-club-restroom/51297.html)
I haven't been on here in a long time. I had to see if there was a conversation.
I have been on Berwyn Cool Kids and I just don't get it. How does a bar/restaurant get away with this. Okay, It was a decoration/prank for Halloween, take it down like everyone else does.
I just don't think it is appropriate in ANY public place, whether it's a bar, restaurant, hair salon, hospital, etc. etc. Mens or Womens room. To many opportunities for something to happen.
This whole incident made Berwyn, who can't afford any more bad press, look ridiculous and that includes our Police and Mayor, whom I have to mention we have not heard from.
Girls want attention, Women want respect!!!!
Unfortunate that the mayor hasn't spoken out about it.
THEIR ARE TOWNS IN THE AREA WITH MUCH WORSE GOING ON,JUST LOOK AND YOU WILL BE SUPRISED! Berwyn is a good town.
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 01, 2015, 12:17:06 PM
THEIR ARE TOWNS IN THE AREA WITH MUCH WORSE GOING ON,JUST LOOK AND YOU WILL BE SUPRISED! Berwyn is a good town.
What does this have to do with anything? Why are you trying to direct attention elsewhere?
I am not trying to direct attention else where,the mirror should be pulled years ago.Whats the difference between the mirror and cameras which when caught a person is arrested. I am well aware of what happens in other towns and is never publicized. Berwyn for whatever reason is always in the news,maybe because of the relationship with Cicero? Isn't the mirror a form of sexual harassment?
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 01, 2015, 12:38:56 PM
I am not trying to direct attention else where,the mirror should be pulled years ago.Whats the difference between the mirror and cameras which when caught a person is arrested. I am well aware of what happens in other towns and is never publicized. Berwyn for whatever reason is always in the news,maybe because of the relationship with Cicero? Isn't the mirror a form of sexual harassment?
You realize that this is a site about Berwyn, right? If you come here, you will find a disproportionate amount of news about Berwyn. Perhaps the information about other towns that you feel is "underpublicized" is in fact well-publicized on websites dedicated to them.
I grew up in Cicero, and now live in Berwyn. I live on the south side where I can stand in the street with one foot in Cicero and one in Berwyn. Berwyn isn't so bad, however, it does have a reputation and most residents are not oblivious to much of the goings on. I know many good people have been working on improving Berwyn.
My personal opinion on this. Berwyn certainly didn't need a story like this to go world wide. Indeed it did go world wide, UK, Australia etc. etc. A good business man, a reputable business man who saw what was happening would not go on media spouting F":* You and rant like a drug addict or drunk about how he wasn't go to do anything about it and in fact burn the place down first. (Fine, get arrested for arson) Most reputable people would apologize and do something.
I'm also still very upset that not one of our elected officials have made a statement.
I think what's very telling here is that when Ronnie Lottz talks to a woman about this he gets patronizing and condescending:
http://jezebel.com/woman-uncovers-two-way-mirror-in-a-bar-bathroom-owner-1700336259 (http://jezebel.com/woman-uncovers-two-way-mirror-in-a-bar-bathroom-owner-1700336259)
But when he talks to a guy about it he pleads persecution:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTSZtI6BXEY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTSZtI6BXEY)
Take that alongside the misogynistic tweets and it's clear this is a man who looks at women from a position of contempt. Even if he wasn't personally peeping in that restroom, he's clearly a guy who thinks it's a great idea to prank women by putting a two-way mirror there without their knowledge. It's a "gag."
"Women are great, great creatures on this earth, but for some reason Jezebel and this media chimes into this feminine hatred, man. It's this mean feminine anger. It really rips a guy apart, man!" ---Ronnie Lottz, presumably from a cross
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTSZtI6BXEY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTSZtI6BXEY)
How many women signed formal complaints?
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 01, 2015, 01:24:45 PM
How many women signed formal complaints?
Let's say it's zero. What of it? Does that make putting a two-way mirror in a women's restroom without their knowledge OK?
NO11111 WHO IS THE ALDERMAN??
Interesting news report on this from WGN. Ronnie Lottz labors to diminish the complaints about this, calling it a "gimmick" by somebody trying to exploit feminist anger:
http://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/the-bar-owner-from-the-berwyn-bar-with-the-2-way-mirror-went-on-wgn-today-and-hes-even-better-than-you-imagined/ (http://www.barstoolsports.com/chicago/the-bar-owner-from-the-berwyn-bar-with-the-2-way-mirror-went-on-wgn-today-and-hes-even-better-than-you-imagined/)
And it looks like an all-female comedy troupe that had performed there has decided to stop performing there.
https://www.facebook.com/HooHAComedy/posts/884254398358488 (https://www.facebook.com/HooHAComedy/posts/884254398358488)
"Regarding Cigars and Stripes; we did have to end our show there. Thanks to everyone who has come out to Berwyn with us for the last 2 years. If anyone wants a clip of them peeing, please let us know! We just need a little time to look through all the footage."
I don't think female performers really have a choice here, given the way that Ronnie Lottz has talked about women publicly, especially after the secret two-way mirror in the women's restroom was discovered.
More from Ronnie Lottz in this interview. At around the one-hour mark, he describes Berwyn as a community of people who ought not to be concerned about the mirror. At the 1:21 mark he likens the woman who posted the video of the mirror to a prostitute.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iuw3J0SiDw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iuw3J0SiDw)
On Twitter, Lottz has taken to keening about how he wasn't given enough time on the show to speak his mind, even though he was on for 40 minutes.
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/594319011162234880 (https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/594319011162234880)
Funny, because he was accusing everybody else of fishing for attention here.
I'd be surprised if this is the end of this. I think eventually he will be forced to take it down.
Wish I could share your optimism. I don't see much evidence of downward pressure on the man to acknowledge his misogynistic behavior.
I wonder if his business has increased or decreased?
Can't imagine how that matters much.
Interesting piece from the Guardian about how Ronnie Lottz's misogynistic behavior is in keeping with a lot of the comedy world:
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/28/chicago-bar-two-way-mirror-womens-toilet (http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/28/chicago-bar-two-way-mirror-womens-toilet)
"One of the go-to rebuttals any time anyone dares to suggest that comedy (like, let's be honest, all facets of culture) might have a misogyny problem is: "Calm down – they're just jokes." As though there's some sort of separation between humour and "real" life, a moat between comedy and the rest of human interaction. As though comedy is only capable of absorption, never influence.
(Oddly, the other refrain you hear over and over is that comedy is our single holy talisman against all suffering and injustice in the world, our only engine of catharsis, and if we critique it in any way, lo, the human race shall surely perish. If you could hurry up and decide which one it is – is comedy frivolous or sacred? Does it affect us deeply or not at all? – definitely let me know. I'll be over here comprehending nuance like some sort of wizard.)"
If business is slow the bar is getting free publicity,am I wrong?
It's getting free publicity either way. The mirror is the point.
More from Ronnie Lottz, who is apparently using every media opportunity to diminish women:
"The woman who recorded that has obviously had a little difficulty with her career.... Do you realize that the same person who posted this video takes a grinder to her vagina in her spare time for money?"
He also says Berwynites have had "giant fun" with the mirror and that women need to take an extra step to open the closet door before using the restroom.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/27/ronnie-lottz-two-way-mirror_n_7156874.html?cps=gravity_2682_3046788071012700703 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/04/27/ronnie-lottz-two-way-mirror_n_7156874.html?cps=gravity_2682_3046788071012700703)
Like others have asked on this feed: Where is the mayor? Where are the alderman?
Very quiet from City Hall.
Makes me wonder if this is a test to see what Berwyn can tolerate. Look at the big empty buildings on Ogden. Maybe Mayor Bobby is wondering if a gentleman's club or two could operate on Ogden. Thousands of cars going by daily. If Cigars and Stripes can pull this off I'm guessing it is the beginning of bad business creep in Berwyn.
Ronnie Lottz decided to add homophobia to his repertoire last night:
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/594728753231572992
I'm still seeing a lot of chatter about how I have to go to the lounge and experience it for myself. Why do I need to see it with my own eyes to know it's a two-way mirror in a women's restroom? Does this necessitate a pilgrimage? Is it Fatima?
I'm tired of the mirror,let the liquor commissioner deal with it?????????????
On Twitter, he's just openly mocking anybody who disagrees with him, and he's still trotting out the line that you have to go to his place to fully appreciate it. Half sales pitch, half ignorant misogyny.
Given how dug in the owner is, and the lack of community or official response, I think my initial assessment of this as old-school Berwyn behavior is pretty much on target.
Berwyn: A Community of Support for Women-Haters, So Long as You Own a Business and Don't Do Anything That Is, Strictly Speaking, Illegal
I wrote a comment on ABC 7 Chicago. I had to giggle, this was a reply I received:
TVJ • 5 hours ago
I think you're right--I once had a client who lived in a Berwyn apartment, and he was growing a certain type of plant right in his front picture window. I asked him if his landlord knew about his 'garden' in the window and apparently the landlord knew. The landlord was a Berwyn police officer!
Cigars & Stripes clientele shows its class on Facebook:
Ronnie Lottz's new line is that she should have asked him about the mirror. He fundamentally does not get it.
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/595419939231629313
Quote from: Ted on April 27, 2015, 10:45:50 AM
Surprisingly, a lot of defenders of the owner of Cigars and Stripes are defending this, claiming it was put up for Halloween and never taken down. But, there was another post saying that the owner put up the mirror in 2001.
The most ardent supporters on BCK are... women.
The mirror has certainly been up for a while. I remember the bartenders cueing us when some unsuspecting soul would go in there, only to be spooked when it would light up! :)
Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G870A using Tapatalk
So the gag is to not tell women there's a two-way mirror in there? At the risk of sounding like Bruno Kirby in Good Morning Vietnam, I'm not humorless, but there's a distinct lack of funny going on with this.
Would anyone want to see the ass of one of the patrons?????
He's claiming that he's getting death threats. Are people making death threats on BCK?
The topic is "nill" on BCK. I do see blogs talking about it still, but not one death threat. He is very busy on Twitter. I may be wrong, but when I checked twitter it seem like he was portraying himself as the victim in all of this.
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 05, 2015, 09:26:41 AM
The most ardent supporters on BCK are... women.
I agree. That is what surprised me most of all. There also seems to be a generational difference - younger women (at least those posting) are supporting this guy while it is the older generation (both men and women) who are most critical of the guy.
I thought the younger generation of women would be all over this guy.
Some are, at least on the C&S Facebook page. He's gotten into it with one woman, arguing that a two-way mirror in a women's restroom is "safely scary" and no different than a Ripley's Believe it or Not museum:
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/595706972831363073
According to C&S' Facebook page, "the door is now locked and r he light is on for your protection." Embarrassing that Lottz thinks this resolves the problem.
Quote from: Ted on May 05, 2015, 05:33:58 PM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 05, 2015, 09:26:41 AM
The most ardent supporters on BCK are... women.
I agree. That is what surprised me most of all. There also seems to be a generational difference - younger women (at least those posting) are supporting this guy while it is the older generation (both men and women) who are most critical of the guy.
I thought the younger generation of women would be all over this guy.
I think it's more the patrons who know the place and know the guy. If a long time "joint" (Quan's, Garv's, Friendly Tap?) was found to have something seemingly inappropriate in place, we'd probably have some older generation (men and women) speaking up on their behalf as well.
Interesting post here:
http://singlegirlblogging.com/2015/05/01/i-am-super-pissed-off-about-the-mild-response-to-this-two-way-mirror-in-a-womens-restroom-at-a-bar-and-the-dirtbag-owner-who-says-tough-shit-ladies/ (http://singlegirlblogging.com/2015/05/01/i-am-super-pissed-off-about-the-mild-response-to-this-two-way-mirror-in-a-womens-restroom-at-a-bar-and-the-dirtbag-owner-who-says-tough-shit-ladies/)
I normally have little patience for all-caps ranting, but I think the blogger makes a valuable point that polite language sometimes gives bad actors cover for their actions. And I think it's clear that the behavior of C&S's owner, while perhaps not illegal, is unquestionably immoral.
To put it another way: What's the moral defense for an undisclosed two-way mirror in a women's restroom?
All the complaining is not going to change the owners mind,he just becomes more defensive.If a person does not agree with the mirror then don't go to the bar.
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 06, 2015, 11:51:04 AM
All the complaining is not going to change the owners mind,he just becomes more defensive.
I think the prevailing sense is that there has been very little complaining within Berwyn---the police has OK'd the mirror, no public figures have spoken out about it, and there's been no local organized protest that I've heard of. I hope that changes, because I think the silence is unfortunate and underscores the point of one blog commenter who said Berwyn is "just about a clone of Cicero."
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 06, 2015, 11:51:04 AM
If a person does not agree with the mirror then don't go to the bar.
I find this argument indefensible. If you know something immoral is happening, is your best advice just to ignore it?
The town has done nothing about the mirror,they do not seem to care!
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 06, 2015, 01:13:06 PM
The town has done nothing about the mirror,they do not seem to care!
Berwyn: You Just Shut Your Mouth If You Know What's Good For You, Honey
I was stunned to read the Editorial today in the Berwyn Suburban Life Page 10.
Our View:
Bar should take down mirror, stop scaring female patrons.
Under the article it states:
Write to us:
We want to hear from you, Letters must be no more than 300 words. They must include your first and last name, town and phone number for verification. We may edit them for clarity, accuracy and style. Email letter to letters@mysuburbanlife.com. The Deadline is 4pm Thursday for the following weeks paper.
Very smart editorial. Ronnie Lottz has taken an indefensible position here, and the Life is right to point out that the undisclosed 2-way mirror is morally wrong on two fronts: for creating a potential environment for invasion of privacy, and for creating a real environment where scaring women is treated as good fun.
I don't see how a reasonable person can disagree with the points the editorial makes.
He's now responding to critics by posting a video about his place produced by the BDC, which has got to be just thrilled about that.
Well, the BDC is part of Berwyn city government, isn't it?
No one at city hall has condemned the two-way mirror, so I say BDC must be proud to see their video getting the word out about this "wonderful" Berwyn business.
If Ronnie Lottz believes the mirror is such a valuable part of his business, why wasn't it included in the video?
I was talking to a person from Berwwyn,whom by chance mentioned the mirror.I started to laugh,we agreed that the mirror was in the bar maybe 10-15 years ago.why all the bullshit now? There obviously there is no law forbidding the mirror, and no complaints!
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 07, 2015, 11:21:05 AM
I was talking to a person from Berwwyn,whom by chance mentioned the mirror.I started to laugh,we agreed that the mirror was in the bar maybe 10-15 years ago.why all the bullshit now? There obviously there is no law forbidding the mirror, and no complaints!
Last week you said "the mirror should be pulled years ago." What changed?
And we're not talking about legalities. What's your moral defense for putting an undisclosed mirror in a women's restroom?
Maybe the BDC could sponsor a contest---support funding for the business that installs the most creative two-way mirror in its women's restroom.
Though I don't think businesses alone should take part in the contest. Perhaps Berwyn churches could be invited to participate too. What do you think?
I did not change my thoughts against the mirror,just that I was told the thing was there for years,or was I misinformed? My position the mirror is sexual harassment.No other business can have such mirror,they all have strict guide lines against sexual harassment.I did agree the mirror was there for years as I did read that somewhere,an it was mentioned by the person I had met. I hope I made myself clear the mirror should be pulled all it is going to attract is perverts that like to peak or will the owner be first inline??
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 07, 2015, 01:18:39 PM
I did not change my thoughts against the mirror,just that I was told the thing was there for years,or was I misinformed? My position the mirror is sexual harassment.No other business can have such mirror,they all have strict guide lines against sexual harassment.I did agree the mirror was there for years as I did read that somewhere,an it was mentioned by the person I had met. I hope I made myself clear the mirror should be pulled all it is going to attract is perverts that like to peak or will the owner be first inline??
If your position is that the mirror represents sexual harassment, then you can't say the owner is doing nothing illegal. And if you take it so seriously, why did you laugh about it with your pal and call it "bullshit"?
IT IS ALL BULLSHIT! he has us wasting our time posting about the stupid mirror,I will never go into the place. Next his buddy in the coffee shop will borrow the mirror!!!!!!
The last thing this man wants is people talking about this, at least on terms he can't control. He definitely wants to capitalize on the attention; he's keening on Twitter to Steve Dahl and the Tribune to cover his bar as some kind of amazing cultural institution---indeed, he wants it covered as an institution that represents Berwyn at its finest. But he's doing it as a man who's oblivious to himself, and he gains very little from people pointing out that, at the end of the day, he has an undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom. There's no business upside to that. Silence gives him cover, and the opportunity to redirect the conversation. Don't let this man and his old-school Berwyn mentality fool you.
Could you please explain old- school Berwyn mentality? maybe you previously did but my memory has slipped thanks much.
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 07, 2015, 04:45:39 PM
Could you please explain old- school Berwyn mentality? maybe you previously did but my memory has slipped thanks much.
Well a lot of it has to do with---oh, hell, I'll just let Ronnie Lottz demonstrate:
"I will burn this fucking place to the ground before I get rid of that mirror. Do you know how much joy that mirror has brought to us? We're synonymous with Halloween. We do a freaky family fun day, and all the kids look in the mirror. This is a fun house, honey, and if you don't like the two-way mirror, go fuck yourself; and if you come on my stage, have something to say. Everyone needs an angle. My angle is: I do barbeque; I promote it, and I break my ass for the local comics in Chicago. I pay them. I try to make them into rock stars. They do nothing, except for this. One girl said she wanted to pull her pants down and show her clitoris to me, and they all came and ate the wings."
I fail to see the humor in scaring women in a bathroom. I also don't see the humor in what Ronnie explained in his Youtube interview about messing with the women about the light in the bathroom. When you have to take a leak after drinking beer, you don't have time to play games trying to get the light on.
The two way mirror is just plain wrong. I don't see a difference in having a two way mirror or hiding a camera to video someone using a bathroom. People get arrested for hidden cameras in locker rooms, tanning salons etc. How is the mirror different?
I would never think of eating in the bar,who does the cooking? Lets analyze the patrons,I understand the language is horrible,so why should the mirror bother them.
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 07, 2015, 09:47:19 PM
I would never think of eating in the bar,who does the cooking? Lets analyze the patrons,I understand the language is horrible,so why should the mirror bother them.
The patrons defending the undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom are lunkheads for sure---I posted an example of that recently. But I'm not as concerned with the patrons as with the owner, who I think is exploiting his privilege as somebody who receives BDC support and is a "community pillar" to engage in immoral behavior.
To return to a point I made earlier in the thread: I think one thing we can all agree on is that if the owner of this Berwyn business were black or Latino, there'd a be a padlock on the front door right now and the owner would have at the very least been detained by the BPD. And the conversation in Berwyn would be about how we live in a nation of laws and what can we do to "keep our community safe."
So obviously appeals to the owner's conscience haven't done anything---today he's making jokes at the number of death threats he's received (8,641, by his count).
It may be more effective, though, to see if he might be financially chastised for his public display of immorality. A little googling suggests that he routinely appeals to the Berwyn City Council for a permit to have outdoor events. I think concerned citizens in Berwyn would do well to speak up at the meeting where that permit is voted on to let the public know that his behavior is unacceptable, and that the council ought to reject his request. If the council disagrees? That's fine too---it forces the Berwyn City Council to publicly endorse a business with an undisclosed two-way mirror in its women's restroom.
I completely agree with above post.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 08, 2015, 08:46:47 AM
... I think one thing we can all agree on is that if the owner of this Berwyn business were black or Latino, there'd a be a padlock on the front door right now and the owner would have at the very least been detained by the BPD. ...
No, we don't "all agree". I think the BPD would have acted in the same way regardless of whether the owner was white, black or Latino.
You have no evidence to the contrary, except your minds eye view of a Berwyn from another era. That Berwyn no longer exists. It ceased to exist long ago, in another time and another country.
Quote from: Ted on May 08, 2015, 10:13:48 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 08, 2015, 08:46:47 AM
... I think one thing we can all agree on is that if the owner of this Berwyn business were black or Latino, there'd a be a padlock on the front door right now and the owner would have at the very least been detained by the BPD. ...
No, we don't "all agree". I think the BPD would have acted in the same way regardless of whether the owner was white, black or Latino.
You have no evidence to the contrary, except your minds eye view of a Berwyn from another era. That Berwyn no longer exists. It ceased to exist long ago, in another time and another country.
Disagree---I think you feel you *have* to say stuff like this. A black or Latino owner---particularly one who doesn't have the BDC's support---could not engineer a media circus at his establishment in response the way Cigars & Stripes did, or condescend to female reporters the way Ronnie Lottz did. Not without consequences. Seriously, just try to imagine how that would go over.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 06:55:12 AM
Disagree---I think you feel you *have* to say stuff like this. A black or Latino owner---particularly one who doesn't have the BDC's support---could not engineer a media circus at his establishment in response the way Cigars & Stripes did, or condescend to female reporters the way Ronnie Lottz did. Not without consequences. Seriously, just try to imagine how that would go over.
That's not what you said. You said that a black or Latino owner would have been shut down by the BPD. I do not think black or Latino owner would have been shut down by the BPD.
Quote from: Ted on May 09, 2015, 10:34:15 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 06:55:12 AM
Disagree---I think you feel you *have* to say stuff like this. A black or Latino owner---particularly one who doesn't have the BDC's support---could not engineer a media circus at his establishment in response the way Cigars & Stripes did, or condescend to female reporters the way Ronnie Lottz did. Not without consequences. Seriously, just try to imagine how that would go over.
That's not what you said. You said that a black or Latino owner would have been shut down by the BPD. I do not think black or Latino owner would have been shut down by the BPD.
Disagree. But we'll never know, because no black or Latino business owner in Berwyn would dare behave like Ronnie Lottz has.
Here's a link to the Berwyn Life's smart editorial on Cigars and Stripes' indefensible conduct, in case the screenshot was illegible or you wish to leave a comment:
http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/2015/04/28/our-view-bar-owner-should-take-down-mirror-stop-scaring-female-patrons/ak0lrg7/ (http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/2015/04/28/our-view-bar-owner-should-take-down-mirror-stop-scaring-female-patrons/ak0lrg7/)
Quote from: markberwyn on May 07, 2015, 07:27:38 AM
If Ronnie Lottz believes the mirror is such a valuable part of his business, why wasn't it included in the video?
Because it would no longer be a surprise when they light the ghoul.
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 09, 2015, 11:07:45 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 07, 2015, 07:27:38 AM
If Ronnie Lottz believes the mirror is such a valuable part of his business, why wasn't it included in the video?
Because it would no longer be a surprise when they light the ghoul.
By that logic, he should've taken the mirror down ages ago because "everybody" knows about it.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 11:16:28 AM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 09, 2015, 11:07:45 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 07, 2015, 07:27:38 AM
If Ronnie Lottz believes the mirror is such a valuable part of his business, why wasn't it included in the video?
Because it would no longer be a surprise when they light the ghoul.
By that logic, he should've taken the mirror down ages ago because "everybody" knows about it.
Now they do, yes. When was the video produced?
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 09, 2015, 01:49:27 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 11:16:28 AM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 09, 2015, 11:07:45 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 07, 2015, 07:27:38 AM
If Ronnie Lottz believes the mirror is such a valuable part of his business, why wasn't it included in the video?
Because it would no longer be a surprise when they light the ghoul.
By that logic, he should've taken the mirror down ages ago because "everybody" knows about it.
Now they do, yes. When was the video produced?
Doesn't matter. Everybody has known about the mirror forever, according to the owner.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 10:40:15 AM
Disagree. But we'll never know, because no black or Latino business owner in Berwyn would dare behave like Ronnie Lottz has.
But we do know. In spite of complaints about noise from Antronios, the police did not shut them down. They let the owner try to address the noise issue. Antronios is a gay bar owned by a Latino.
I do not think the police handle owners differently,years back can't remember any bars closed.
Quote from: Ted on May 09, 2015, 03:23:35 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 10:40:15 AM
Disagree. But we'll never know, because no black or Latino business owner in Berwyn would dare behave like Ronnie Lottz has.
But we do know. In spite of complaints about noise from Antronios, the police did not shut them down. They let the owner try to address the noise issue. Antronios is a gay bar owned by a Latino.
That's super, but I don't see how the situations are analogous.
I mean, did the owner of this gay bar deliberately create an environment that exploits women? Did he respond with sexist ranting when he was called on it?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 02:11:23 PM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 09, 2015, 01:49:27 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 11:16:28 AM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 09, 2015, 11:07:45 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 07, 2015, 07:27:38 AM
If Ronnie Lottz believes the mirror is such a valuable part of his business, why wasn't it included in the video?
Because it would no longer be a surprise when they light the ghoul.
By that logic, he should've taken the mirror down ages ago because "everybody" knows about it.
Now they do, yes. When was the video produced?
Doesn't matter. Everybody has known about the mirror forever, according to the owner.
Not everybody, but "everybody."
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 05:45:14 PM
I mean, did the owner of this gay bar deliberately create an environment that exploits women? Did he respond with sexist ranting when he was called on it?
Antronio's is for gay males, not gay females. So at most, he would exploit boys and TVs.
:)
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 04:58:49 PM
That's super, but I don't see how the situations are analogous.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 05:45:14 PM
I mean, did the owner of this gay bar deliberately create an environment that exploits women? Did he respond with sexist ranting when he was called on it?
It is analogous. It speaks to the issue of whether the BFD is more likely to close up a bar owned by a black person or a Latino.
Contrary to your beliefs, I don't think they are more likely, especially if you consider the consequences of potential law suits.
by the way, when did sexist ranting become a reason for the BFD to step in and close a bar?
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 09, 2015, 10:37:37 PM
Antronio's is for gay males, not gay females. So at most, he would exploit boys and TVs.
:)
The one time I was in Antronios (for a BUNGALO event), I did see women in the bar.
Quote from: Ted on May 10, 2015, 04:47:22 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 04:58:49 PM
That's super, but I don't see how the situations are analogous.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 09, 2015, 05:45:14 PM
I mean, did the owner of this gay bar deliberately create an environment that exploits women? Did he respond with sexist ranting when he was called on it?
It is analogous. It speaks to the issue of whether the BFD is more likely to close up a bar owned by a black person or a Latino.
I think the issue of potential sexual exploitation is distinctive. And while there's nothing illegal about sexist ranting---hell, BTF would've been shut down ages ago if that were the case---I don't think a minority business owner would be comfortable behaving as arrogantly as Ronnie Lottz has. I could be wrong, but I don't think I am.
Speaking of arrogance---Lottz's new line is that he is owed an apology from his critics. Pride of Berwyn.
I don't disagree with any of those statements. But I do disagree with your statement that the BPD would have shut down Cigars & Stripes if it had been owned by a black or Latino. I don't think that would have happened.
The police have enough issues to deal with other tan a mirror.
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 10, 2015, 11:29:23 AM
The police have enough issues to deal with other tan a mirror.
Perhaps---I've heard that the drive-by-shootings situation in Berwyn is dire. But that doesn't work as a moral defense of an undisclosed two-way mirror in a women's restroom. And that lack of action can be interpreted as an endorsement by bad actors. All it takes is one garbage person like Ronnie Lottz exploiting women for laughs to inspire other garbage people to do the same for even worse reasons.
Ronnie Lottz had a great Mother's Day! He says that Cigars & Stripes was packed and that he had some repeat customers; he says that the place has passed a "stress test."
This only shows how awful his clientele is---I mean, you're plainly making an unethical decision if you decide to go there now. But maybe going there has always been a bad decision? A website republished a very funny article by a member of Hoo Ha Comedy---a group of Chicago female stand-ups that canceled their monthly appearance at C&S after learning it had an undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom---that describes just how awful performing there can be:
http://nyc.brightestyoungthings.com/articles/nightmare-gig-meredith-kachel.htm (http://nyc.brightestyoungthings.com/articles/nightmare-gig-meredith-kachel.htm)
Excerpt:
I dread going, but I also don't. Because here's the thing: a third of the time you have THE BEST TIME OF YOUR LIFE. You have "Suburbs Fun!", which is when you make friends with strangers and everyone bums you Newport cigarettes, and there is Italian beef because Berwyn is basically your high school graduation party where you parents had to invite the weird neighbors who all have shaved heads and got you high outside the bouncy castle. Another third of the time, you have a night like...a night like, for example, you bring one of the best comedians in Chicago, who also happens to be black, to perform and the "Reject Rain Men" who are filled with Old Styles (and don't know the definition of "actually" but use it often in social media) yell at her during her set "OBAAAAMMAAAAAA!" like it's a heckle during her set about her grandma, and you are so embarrassed you stop sleeping for a week.
Just the fact that nothing has been done about this by the BPD is disappointing. Anywhere else, this would have been a huge deal. Berwyn just took 10 huge steps backwards. So disappointing.
Quote from: markberwyn on April 28, 2015, 08:27:42 PM
It may be that there's no such thing as "new Berwyn." Just cops and bar patrons and other residents with the same retrograde values as the previous generations.
Boy, that's lumping a whole lot of people into one pile.
I've followed this story since it broke and agree with Ted, its mostly newer Berwynites who are offended by this behavior. In fact, on various threads I've read numerous "old time Berwynites" absolutely lay into Ronnie for this type of behavior. Then again, I know who those old time Berwynites are because I was one myself.
Dangerous game to play painting everyone with one broad stroke of the brush.
Additionally, I have no idea what people expect the Berwyn PD to do about this. They investigated and found no evidence of criminal wrongdoing. Are they to become the behavior police as well?
Lastly, Ronnie Lottz is a unique character, even amongst us old time Berwynites. He has his own sense of reality. He was a PRO WRESTLING MANAGER, for Gods sake. He still uses his pro wrestling manager last name. His establishment is best described as a journey into the paranormal.
The above is NOT an endorsement of and/or acquiescence to any specific behavior. Its simply a statement of fact based on 30+ years of knowing the guy.
My take is that the market will dictate to Mr. Lottz whether his behavior is "acceptable". As long as no lines are crossed into criminal/illegal activity, I believe its best to let Mr. Lottz's cash register tell him if Berwyn "accepts" his behavior or not.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 11, 2015, 11:18:54 AM
Lastly, Ronnie Lottz is a unique character, even amongst us old time Berwynites. He has his own sense of reality. He was a PRO WRESTLING MANAGER, for Gods sake. He still uses his pro wrestling manager last name. His establishment is best described as a journey into the paranormal.
The above is NOT an endorsement of and/or acquiescence to any specific behavior. Its simply a statement of fact based on 30+ years of knowing the guy.
Of course what you said is an endorsement! You just said it's OK for the place to have an undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom because the owner is a "unique character."
Berwyn: Where capitalism is more important than women's safety.
How is the mirror used? I would appreciate some one explaining,or has witnessed the mirror in the women's washroom.
Doesn't matter. What's at issue is how the mirror can potentially be used, especially in light of the owner's attitude toward women.
Remember, here's the man who's installed an undisclosed two-way mirror in his women's restroom and refuses to remove it:
The mirror is back,wasn't this all discussed a couple of years ago?
Better question: How much has Cigars & Stripes received in TIF funding, and should the BDC ask that it be returned?
http://www.berwyn.net/current-project-updates (http://www.berwyn.net/current-project-updates)
If you've stopped by the Ogden Avenue staple Cigars & Stripes BBQ Lounge recently, you've probably noticed a few changes. This full service lounge and cigar shop is touted for its craft beer selection, live entertainment and best-in-class smoked barbecue wings. Approved for TIF funding in late 2012, Cigars & Stripes has slowly but surely been changing things up a bit. A new, expanded kitchen capitalizes on the rave reviews the food menu has received. An updated outdoor space makes this a "must stop" for the warmer months. Additionally, there is new seating in the rear and new doors and windows. The finishing touches will include a new façade and signage.
I mean, I agree with Panther's argument that people can vote with their wallets here. But the more meaningful votes come from public institutions. I think everybody agrees that the owner has behaved like a bad citizen here (except for some of his willfully ignorant friends and clientele), and government shouldn't support bad citzens. So he shouldn't receive a nickel in public funding, nor should he have any permit requests approved.
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 02, 2015, 10:22:00 AM
I wonder if his business has increased or decreased?
He's been packed every night since this broke.
He should have put a piece of plywood over the mirror when it wasn't being used for halloween.
And there is ZERO proof that anything illegal has been done with the mirror. No cameras, no people in there. Just the existence of the mirror. Lot's of stories being created around the existence though.
Quote from: exPROPer on May 07, 2015, 07:16:40 AM
Well, the BDC is part of Berwyn city government, isn't it?
No one at city hall has condemned the two-way mirror, so I say BDC must be proud to see their video getting the word out about this "wonderful" Berwyn business.
No. The BDC is an independent non-profit who does work for the City of Berwyn.
Quote from: Ted on May 08, 2015, 10:13:48 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 08, 2015, 08:46:47 AM
... I think one thing we can all agree on is that if the owner of this Berwyn business were black or Latino, there'd a be a padlock on the front door right now and the owner would have at the very least been detained by the BPD. ...
No, we don't "all agree". I think the BPD would have acted in the same way regardless of whether the owner was white, black or Latino.
You have no evidence to the contrary, except your minds eye view of a Berwyn from another era. That Berwyn no longer exists. It ceased to exist long ago, in another time and another country.
I don't think the BDC had a damned thing to do about this.
And your suddenly dragging racism into this, where it doesn't exist (except in the hypothetical example you made up to bring in racism).
As I said above, there is zero evidence that a crime has been committed. Poor judgement for sure. Criminal activity? Prove it.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 10, 2015, 12:48:02 PM
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 10, 2015, 11:29:23 AM
The police have enough issues to deal with other tan a mirror.
Perhaps---I've heard that the drive-by-shootings situation in Berwyn is dire. But that doesn't work as a moral defense of an undisclosed two-way mirror in a women's restroom. And that lack of action can be interpreted as an endorsement by bad actors. All it takes is one garbage person like Ronnie Lottz exploiting women for laughs to inspire other garbage people to do the same for even worse reasons.
Huh?
Quote from: OakParkSpartan on May 12, 2015, 09:11:46 AM
Quote from: Ted on May 08, 2015, 10:13:48 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 08, 2015, 08:46:47 AM
... I think one thing we can all agree on is that if the owner of this Berwyn business were black or Latino, there'd a be a padlock on the front door right now and the owner would have at the very least been detained by the BPD. ...
No, we don't "all agree". I think the BPD would have acted in the same way regardless of whether the owner was white, black or Latino.
You have no evidence to the contrary, except your minds eye view of a Berwyn from another era. That Berwyn no longer exists. It ceased to exist long ago, in another time and another country.
I don't think the BDC had a damned thing to do about this.
And your suddenly dragging racism into this, where it doesn't exist (except in the hypothetical example you made up to bring in racism).
As I said above, there is zero evidence that a crime has been committed. Poor judgement for sure. Criminal activity? Prove it.
I never said a crime was committed. My only point is that there's no moral defense of an undisclosed two-way mirror in a women's restroom. Breathe.
Breathe? This thread is 80% you. No crime has been committed. What do you want the police to do? Make shit up?
Rather hilariously, Ronnie Lottz is now playing the victim card, encouraging people to support an anti-cyberbullying campaign:
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/598161969183596545
Which leads me to something I've been thinking about for a while with this guy. Most of his supporters have (ineptly) defended the undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom by saying things like "you have to go there!" and "he's a nice guy!" I wonder how these supporters reconcile that with the owner's public statements on the matter, which have been uniformly vile. With male interviewers, he's felt comfortable calling the woman who discovered the mirror a prostitute; with female interviewers he's been sexist and condescending ("honey") and saying that anybody who has a problem with the mirror can go fuck themselves. And yet he has the temerity to say that what the comic should have come to him and asked him about the mirror. Why? So he could have called her a prostitute and told her to go fuck herself to her face?
I'm interested in hearing out how this place's fans explain the owner's apparent Jeckyl and Hyde behavior.
Good interview with the comedian involved, with a lot of common-sense retorts to the rationalizations people are making for Ronnie Lottz's behavior and the police's response. (Interview starts about 10 minutes in.)
http://www.therebellionnetwork.com/talkhard/2015/5/12/ep-46-mirrorgate-feat-tamale-sepp (http://www.therebellionnetwork.com/talkhard/2015/5/12/ep-46-mirrorgate-feat-tamale-sepp)
Now Lottz is making a mockery of a serious issue by charging admission to the room behind the bathroom, with money ostensibly given to a cyberbullying organization, as if that had anything to do with anything, or made this right.
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/598233355667275776 (https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/598233355667275776)
Can't somebody take this man aside privately and tell him to stop embarrassing himself?
I mean, the fact that that tweet points to some random account and not an actual charity that's involved in the fight against cyberbullying just proves the insincerity of his gesture.
The Berwyn City Council approved the BDC giving at least $22,000 in TIF funds to Cigars and Stripes:
ftp://ftp.illinoiscomptroller.com/LocGovTIF/FY2013/01605030/13TIF01605030Ogden_Ave_Cor.pdf
Do you think it was money well spent, considering the BDC's core mission of improving Berwyn's profile?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 11, 2015, 11:36:28 AM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 11, 2015, 11:18:54 AM
Lastly, Ronnie Lottz is a unique character, even amongst us old time Berwynites. He has his own sense of reality. He was a PRO WRESTLING MANAGER, for Gods sake. He still uses his pro wrestling manager last name. His establishment is best described as a journey into the paranormal.
The above is NOT an endorsement of and/or acquiescence to any specific behavior. Its simply a statement of fact based on 30+ years of knowing the guy.
Of course what you said is an endorsement! You just said it's OK for the place to have an undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom because the owner is a "unique character."
No I didnt....not even close. Nothing of the sort. Not directly and not even impliedly. Please dont put words in my mouth. My post is here for all to see. Not ONCE did I mentione anything about the propriety of the mirror. I simply commented on Ronnie's sense of reality. In fact, I SPECIFICALLY stated my comments were NOT an endorsement of any specific behavior.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 13, 2015, 12:35:09 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 11, 2015, 11:36:28 AM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 11, 2015, 11:18:54 AM
Lastly, Ronnie Lottz is a unique character, even amongst us old time Berwynites. He has his own sense of reality. He was a PRO WRESTLING MANAGER, for Gods sake. He still uses his pro wrestling manager last name. His establishment is best described as a journey into the paranormal.
The above is NOT an endorsement of and/or acquiescence to any specific behavior. Its simply a statement of fact based on 30+ years of knowing the guy.
Of course what you said is an endorsement! You just said it's OK for the place to have an undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom because the owner is a "unique character."
No I didnt....not even close. Nothing of the sort. Not directly and not even impliedly. Please dont put words in my mouth. My post is here for all to see. Not ONCE did I mentione anything about the propriety of the mirror. I simply commented on Ronnie's sense of reality. In fact, I SPECIFICALLY stated my comments were NOT an endorsement of any specific behavior.
If it's not an endorsement, it's indisputably a weak-ass condemnation. There was certainly nothing in your post that suggested you had a problem with the mirror, just your belief that the market would handle this---because the market always serves women's best interests in terms of respect and safety, I guess.
The bar and mirror have been their for years why know?
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 13, 2015, 09:20:38 AM
The bar and mirror have been their for years why know?
Ronnie Lottz had the same question:
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/593291054885019649
Is "Tamale Slops" a term of respect, do you think?
Cigars & Stripes was nominated for an award "given annually to one Berwyn-based business that presents a professional and favorable image to Berwyn."
http://www.berwyn.net/bdc-community-events/annual-meeting (http://www.berwyn.net/bdc-community-events/annual-meeting)
It didn't win, but better luck next year, right?
Who are the fools? Cigars and Stripes got thousands in free advertisements over a silly mirror,well planned.
It looks like the city council is going to address this issue at Tuesday's city council meeting. 3rd ward alderman Marge Paul has an item on this week's city council agenda to amend Chapters 660 and 804 of the city code to prohibit the installation and maintenance of two way mirrors or surveillance devices in commercial establishments.
YEAH MARGE!!!!! Glad to see someone trying to do something about what happened at Cigars and Stripes.
Here is a link to the city council agenda:
http://www.berwyn-il.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/MtgAgendas/2015/20150512-CouAgenda.pdf (http://www.berwyn-il.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/MtgAgendas/2015/20150512-CouAgenda.pdf)
Quote from: Ted on May 16, 2015, 06:26:19 AM
It looks like the city council is going to address this issue at Tuesday's city council meeting. 3rd ward alderman Marge Paul has an item on this week's city council agenda to amend Chapters 660 and 804 of the city code to prohibit the installation and maintenance of two way mirrors as surveillance devices in commercial establishments.
YEAH MARGE!!!!! Glad to see someone trying to do something about what happened at Cigars and Stripes.
Here is a link to the city council agenda:
http://www.berwyn-il.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/MtgAgendas/2015/20150512-CouAgenda.pdf (http://www.berwyn-il.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/MtgAgendas/2015/20150512-CouAgenda.pdf)
Two way mirrors *or* surveillance devices. Ronnie Lottz would pitch a fit at the suggestion that the mirror was used for surveillance. But I suspect he'll pitch a fit anyway, given his misogynistic blithering for the past three weeks. Did his anti-cyberbullying crusade get any money? Who's receiving it?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 16, 2015, 06:45:47 AM
Two way mirrors *or* surveillance devices. Ronnie Lottz would pitch a fit at the suggestion that the mirror was used for surveillance. But I suspect he'll pitch a fit anyway, given his misogynistic blithering for the past three weeks. Did his anti-cyberbullying crusade get any money? Who's receiving it?
Mark, that was just the title given on the agenda. I suggest you read the actual proposal. Here is the link (starts on page 28):
http://www.berwyn-il.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/MtgAgendas/2015/20150512-CouAgenda-Full-Packet.pdf (http://www.berwyn-il.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/MtgAgendas/2015/20150512-CouAgenda-Full-Packet.pdf)
According to the memo in the full packet, Chapter 660 deals with "Offenses Relating to Persons" and Chapter 804 deals with commercial establishments who deal in or provide liquor. Marge is proposing the laws involving Offenses Relating to Persons be amended to include a section to safeguard invasions of privacy. In the memo, she cites laws in California that are similar and which have withstood the test of time. In the amendment to Chapter 660, Marge proposes prohibiting two way mirrors as an invasion of privacy. Marge identifies exceptions for law enforcement as well as some other exceptions. In the amendment to Chapter 804, Marge is very specific - two way mirrors in bathrooms in commercial establishments that serve liquor.
I don't see how the owner can get around what Marge is proposing as an amendment to Section 804.
Quote from: Ted on May 16, 2015, 06:55:29 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 16, 2015, 06:45:47 AM
Two way mirrors *or* surveillance devices. Ronnie Lottz would pitch a fit at the suggestion that the mirror was used for surveillance. But I suspect he'll pitch a fit anyway, given his misogynistic blithering for the past three weeks. Did his anti-cyberbullying crusade get any money? Who's receiving it?
Mark, that was just the title given on the agenda. I suggest you read the actual proposal. Here is the link (starts on page 28):
http://www.berwyn-il.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/MtgAgendas/2015/20150512-CouAgenda-Full-Packet.pdf (http://www.berwyn-il.gov/sites/all/files/pdfs/MtgAgendas/2015/20150512-CouAgenda-Full-Packet.pdf)
According to the memo in the full packet, Chapter 660 deals with "Offenses Relating to Persons" and Chapter 804 deals with commercial establishments who deal in or provide liquor. Marge is proposing the laws involving Offenses Relating to Persons be amended to include a section to safeguard invasions of privacy. In the memo, she cites laws in California that are similar and which have withstood the test of time. In the amendment to Chapter 660, Marge proposes prohibiting two way mirrors as an invasion of privacy. Marge identifies exceptions for law enforcement as well as some other exceptions. In the amendment to Chapter 804, Marge is very specific - two way mirrors in bathrooms in commercial establishments that serve liquor.
I don't see how the owner can get around what Marge is proposing as an amendment to Section 804.
Thanks. I'm sure Lottz will show up trying to argue for a grandfather clause or something; the man has not uttered a single word yet that suggests he thinks the criticism he has received is valid. And given that esteemed civic institutions like the BDC and BPD have effectively endorsed the undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom, I'm not very confident that this proposal will pass---or lead to the removal of the mirror if it does.
I just noticed that the agenda and packet are dated May 12. So did this meeting already happen?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 16, 2015, 12:50:51 PM
I just noticed that the agenda and packet are dated May 12. So did this meeting already happen?
Good catch. I thought the meeting was this Tuesday, but it looks like it was last Tuesday.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 13, 2015, 06:46:40 AM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 13, 2015, 12:35:09 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 11, 2015, 11:36:28 AM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 11, 2015, 11:18:54 AM
Lastly, Ronnie Lottz is a unique character, even amongst us old time Berwynites. He has his own sense of reality. He was a PRO WRESTLING MANAGER, for Gods sake. He still uses his pro wrestling manager last name. His establishment is best described as a journey into the paranormal.
The above is NOT an endorsement of and/or acquiescence to any specific behavior. Its simply a statement of fact based on 30+ years of knowing the guy.
Of course what you said is an endorsement! You just said it's OK for the place to have an undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom because the owner is a "unique character."
No I didnt....not even close. Nothing of the sort. Not directly and not even impliedly. Please dont put words in my mouth. My post is here for all to see. Not ONCE did I mentione anything about the propriety of the mirror. I simply commented on Ronnie's sense of reality. In fact, I SPECIFICALLY stated my comments were NOT an endorsement of any specific behavior.
If it's not an endorsement, it's indisputably a weak-ass condemnation. There was certainly nothing in your post that suggested you had a problem with the mirror, just your belief that the market would handle this---because the market always serves women's best interests in terms of respect and safety, I guess.
There's a very good reason why I don't take a public stance, one way or another....because its irrelevant and nothing good will come out of it. I know the guy 30+ years....no matter what stance I take, I'm in a no win situation. Furthermore, its really not for you to dictate what I should or shouldn't do. Nor is it up to you to interpret my posts as you see fit.
Nonetheless, just a few points:
1) Not sure what you expect the Berwyn P.D. to do here...admittedly, no crime has been committed. What else can they do? Is the Berwyn P.D. to act as the city's moral compass and/or ethical safeguard?
2) Not sure what you expect the City itself to do? It doesn't look like any ordinances or licensing regulations were violated. Like it or not, this bar is one of Berwyns most successful and popular businesses. So lets say the city comes down like a ton of bricks on Ronnie and he shuts his doors. Would this be better? Would this appease you? Or would you be one of the first bemoaning another city business closed? This is
NOT an endorsement of Mr. Lotzz's actions, its simple looking reality in the face. Are there any other options the City could explore to address the issue(s)? Looks like the city already has done so.
3) Your assumption that Ronnie is a misogynist is IMO mistaken. He's not a misogynist at all....crude-yes, crass-uh huh, socially uncouth-certainly, attention seeker & self publicist-most definitely.
He's an equal opportunity OFFENDER. He will offend anyone and everyone at any given time. That doesn't make him a misogynist, it simply means that his target at the time was a woman. Nor does it make his behavior more palatable.....it just means you've made a mistaken assumption, IMHO.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 17, 2015, 10:32:03 PMNor is it up to you to interpret my posts as you see fit.
I can interpret your posts as much as I please, though of course you (and anybody) are free to dispute my interpretation. You say this guy should be given a pass for having an undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom. I disagree.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 17, 2015, 10:32:03 PM
Not sure what you expect the City itself to do? It doesn't look like any ordinances or licensing regulations were violated.
I gather the city council is looking into that, though I don't know what if anything they decided on. I do think any future requests he makes for TIF funding through the BDC should be rejected. The point of the money is to make improvements that help bolster the city's reputation; you may have noticed that this man's actions have made Berwyn an international laughingstock. Similarly, any special permit requests he makes for parties, fests, etc, should be summarily rejected; he deserves no special dispensation from the city.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 17, 2015, 10:32:03 PM
Like it or not, this bar is one of Berwyns most successful and popular businesses. So lets say the city comes down like a ton of bricks on Ronnie and he shuts his doors. Would this be better? Would this appease you?
I don't think of this in terms of whether it's good or bad for business. Point is, patronizing this business is an immoral act. Certainly, nobody's defending this man on moral grounds---the only arguments for his side of things that I've heard are 1) It's a business, and we need to support business, man! 2) This dude's weird, so whatever, 3) I don't like thinking about this too much, so it's OK, I guess? 4) I'm tired of talking about this. These are expressions of exasperation with the attention the business has received, not defenses of the business' immoral conduct.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 17, 2015, 10:32:03 PM
3) Your assumption that Ronnie is a misogynist is IMO mistaken. He's not a misogynist at all
He's called a female customer a c*nt, likened the female comedian who posted a video about the mirror to a prostitute, and dismissed the female journalist who called him about it as "honey." I suppose we can discuss to what degree this makes Ronnie Lottz a misogynist, but I don't know how you come to the conclusion that he's not a misogynist AT ALL, unless you feel compelled to defend him because he's your bud or you like the way he makes hot wings or something.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 17, 2015, 10:32:03 PM
He's an equal opportunity OFFENDER.
I trust in time you'll recognize that this is a poor defense of the man and his business.
Because of you, Mark Berwyn, this idiot has far exceeded his 15 minutes of fame and nothing will change because of your blathering, except for you possibly feeling better about yourself. Bravo!
Quote from: MRS. NORTHSIDER on May 18, 2015, 12:02:45 AM
Because of you, Mark Berwyn, this idiot has far exceeded his 15 minutes of fame and nothing will change because of your blathering, except for you possibly feeling better about yourself. Bravo!
I don't feel better seeing Berwyn publicly humiliated. (Again.) But I do think that this is one of those cases where a fix is actually possible. It's not like we're trying to enact gun control or end graft; we just want a businessowner to understand his "idiocy," as you call it. (He hasn't yet. He's mocking Jon "Bar Rescue" Taffer's request that he take the mirror down by making jokes about it: https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/600127239959748608)
(Misogynists always try to pass off their misogyny as a "joke," remember.)
You say nothing will change because of what you call my "blathering." Maybe so. What, then, do you think would be a more effective way to change things?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 18, 2015, 12:14:15 AM
Quote from: MRS. NORTHSIDER on May 18, 2015, 12:02:45 AM
Because of you, Mark Berwyn, this idiot has far exceeded his 15 minutes of fame and nothing will change because of your blathering, except for you possibly feeling better about yourself. Bravo!
I don't feel better seeing Berwyn publicly humiliated. (Again.) But I do think that this is one of those cases where a fix is actually possible. It's not like we're trying to enact gun control or end graft; we just want a businessowner to understand his "idiocy," as you call it. (He hasn't yet. He's mocking Jon "Bar Rescue" Taffer's request that he take the mirror down by making jokes about it: https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/600127239959748608)
(Misogynists always try to pass off their misogyny as a "joke," remember.)
You say nothing will change because of what you call my "blathering." Maybe so. What, then, do you think would be a more effective way to change things?
Not sure. I'm hoping to come up with a cure in the future.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 18, 2015, 12:14:15 AM
Quote from: MRS. NORTHSIDER on May 18, 2015, 12:02:45 AM
I don't feel better seeing Berwyn publicly humiliated. (Again.)
Of course you do...if you didnt, the "again" verbiage would not have been included.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 17, 2015, 11:10:13 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 17, 2015, 10:32:03 PMNor is it up to you to interpret my posts as you see fit.
I can interpret your posts as much as I please, though of course you (and anybody) are free to dispute my interpretation. You say this guy should be given a pass for having an undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom. I disagree.
I would imagine then that there's a terms of service limitation on trolling.
I never said Ronnie should be given a "pass" for anything.
The only thing I said is the Police Department cant do anything about it, even though you're hell bent on throwing blame at their doorstep despite ZERO evidence that a crime has been committed....and that neither an ordinance or licensing regulation has been violated, hence tying City's hands as well.
tell me what YOU would do?
You havent offered any solution outside of the incessant whining on these boards, which most everybody is getting tired of...including those a of similar mindset as yours. You've already been told to....BREATH.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 17, 2015, 11:10:13 PM
I gather the city council is looking into that, though I don't know what if anything they decided on. I do think any future requests he makes for TIF funding through the BDC should be rejected. The point of the money is to make improvements that help bolster the city's reputation; you may have noticed that this man's actions have made Berwyn an international laughingstock. Similarly, any special permit requests he makes for parties, fests, etc, should be summarily rejected; he deserves no special dispensation from the city.
So let me get this straight...you're waylaying the City of Berwyn about what may, or may not, happen in the future?
Brilliant.
What ex post facto requests for TIF funding or special use permits have been granted to Mr. Lotzz by the city?
Slow down. You're upset with me, that's clear, but your last few posts have been riddled with illogic and typos, and it's hard to make sense of them.
If you have an issue with the city taking the lead on this, take it up with the alderman who's proposed barring two-way mirrors from Berwyn businesses.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 17, 2015, 11:10:13 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 17, 2015, 10:32:03 PM
3) Your assumption that Ronnie is a misogynist is IMO mistaken. He's not a misogynist at all
He's called a female customer a c*nt, likened the female comedian who posted a video about the mirror to a prostitute, and dismissed the female journalist who called him about it as "honey." I suppose we can discuss to what degree this makes Ronnie Lottz a misogynist, but I don't know how you come to the conclusion that he's not a misogynist AT ALL, unless you feel compelled to defend him because he's your bud or you like the way he makes hot wings or something.
1) We're not "buds"
2) I havent defended him
3) I have never eaten his wings
4) Its not about ME
The conclusion I've come up with is that you're using these boards to tee off on unacceptable behavior. thats your only concern, to vent.
If you read my post you would understand what I was trying to say.
Ronnie doesnt use the term c@#$t because he dislikes women, he uses it because he wants to offend a woman. critical distinction. if he wanted to insult a man, for example, he would use other similarly colorful language. That wouldnt make him a man hater. it would mean that hes trying to insult a man.
You need to look at his "entire body of work"...for lack of a better term. He insults
everybody, with similarly colorful/obscene, vulgar, crass language. His venom is not limited towards women, nor is it primarily intended for them.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 18, 2015, 07:46:20 AM
Slow down. You're upset with me, that's clear, but your last few posts have been riddled with illogic and typos, and it's hard to make sense of them.
If you have an issue with the city taking the lead on this, take it up with the alderman who's proposed barring two-way mirrors from Berwyn businesses.
?????
I dont think anybody has any problem reading or comprehending what Im saying.
Im not the party people are telling to BREATH, YOU are.
I have no problem with the City taking the lead to eradicate this type of behavior. I commend the alderman. YOU are the party who was criticizing the City, not I.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 17, 2015, 11:10:13 PM
trust in time you'll recognize that this is a poor defense of the man and his business.
Do you REALLY believe
I have a hard time recognizing a valid defense?
Im not sayin' Im just sayin"
Quote from: The Jackal on May 18, 2015, 07:51:05 AM
Ronnie doesnt use the term c@#$t because he dislikes women, he uses it because he wants to offend a woman. critical distinction. if he wanted to insult a man, for example, he would use other similarly colorful language.
Actually, there's ample evidence disproving your point. Listen to the entire 40-minute radio interview he did with a couple of male hosts who basically mock and insult him the whole time; everything out of Lottz's mouth is rude or goofy (it's where he likened the woman to a prostitute), but he never says anything offensive or rude to the men themselves. Or consider his various tweets to Jon Taffer, which are angry but never say anything offensive. Since this started, he's only used offensive insults with women. If you really want to plant your flag on this point, make a better case, like a lawyer might.
Here we go with the lawyer analogies again....why so defensive?
In order to properly ascertain Ronniea misogynistic nature, or not, you need a hell of a lot more evidence to consider than a 49 minute tape. Maybe more like 30 years worth of first hand knowledge.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 18, 2015, 08:15:05 AM
Here we go with the lawyer analogies again....why so defensive?
In order to properly ascertain Ronniea misogynistic nature, or not, you need a hell of a lot more evidence to consider than a 49 minute tape. Maybe more like 30 years worth of first hand knowledge.
Fine, then. Let's take advantage of your 30 years' worth of first-hand knowledge. Please explain this Ronnie Lottz tweet to me.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 17, 2015, 11:10:13 PMI don't know how you come to the conclusion that he's not a misogynist AT ALL, unless you feel compelled to defend him because he's your bud or you like the way he makes hot wings or something.
They don't have hot wings; they have smoked wings with a very unique smoke flavor, but you can get some blazing hot stuff along with them.
The best thing I've had there is the occasional "smoked" Italian beef. It may the be best beef sammich I've ever had, using that same smoke flavor the wings employ. That's a strong statement in these parts, of course, but since it's not a regular menu item I will not call it the best beef in Chicagoland. Unfortunately, it's not a regular BBQ joint with a stable menu other than the wings and tips. Everything else is just specials of the day or week.
Sounds yummy. Shame that going there is indefensible.
Quote from: Ted on May 16, 2015, 09:40:34 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 16, 2015, 12:50:51 PM
I just noticed that the agenda and packet are dated May 12. So did this meeting already happen?
Good catch. I thought the meeting was this Tuesday, but it looks like it was last Tuesday.
Yes, it was sent to legal for further review. My assumption is it has to do with clothing stores, etc. using them.
Immoral? Hmm. Guess that fits me.
I like his wings. I enjoy the bar when I go in. If you choose not to go in, so be it.
As for the TIF funds, they aren't for enhancing the city's reputation or what ever you said, they are to spur economic development.
I'd suggest breathing.
Well, I'm there right now....and trying the wings! I want to see what the hubbub is about.
Well, I'm there right now....and trying the wings! I want to see what the hubbub is about.
That's immoral! Think how the poor chicken feels.
I would very worried if the chickens were female!!!!!
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 18, 2015, 11:38:11 AM
Quote from: Ted on May 16, 2015, 09:40:34 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 16, 2015, 12:50:51 PM
I just noticed that the agenda and packet are dated May 12. So did this meeting already happen?
Good catch. I thought the meeting was this Tuesday, but it looks like it was last Tuesday.
Yes, it was sent to legal for further review. My assumption is it has to do with clothing stores, etc. using them.
The comedian who shot the video that brought attention to the undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom seems to be under the impression it has to do with Cigars & Stripes:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155623982175093&set=a.10150347544755093.585573.665600092&type=1&theater (https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155623982175093&set=a.10150347544755093.585573.665600092&type=1&theater)
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 18, 2015, 11:38:11 AM
Quote from: Ted on May 16, 2015, 09:40:34 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 16, 2015, 12:50:51 PM
I just noticed that the agenda and packet are dated May 12. So did this meeting already happen?
Good catch. I thought the meeting was this Tuesday, but it looks like it was last Tuesday.
Yes, it was sent to legal for further review. My assumption is it has to do with clothing stores, etc. using them.
That is the usual procedure - to send it to legal for review. I can imagine that the city has to be very careful here in its language. There are a lot of commercial businesses that have a legitimate reason for having a 2 way mirror (e.g. security, safety).
So if the matter was "sent to legal", I imagine it was for review of a proposed ordinance/regulation?
If so, that would necessarily mean an ordinance/regulation adequately addressing this scenario was not already in place at the time of the incident, no?
As such, I can't imagine how the City and/or Police Department are "on the hook" for Mr. Lotzz's action(s), or what more could be expected of them.
A lot of money wasted on this silly mirror,tax dollars!!!!!!!
Quote from: The Jackal on May 19, 2015, 09:53:48 AM
So if the matter was "sent to legal", I imagine it was for review of a proposed ordinance/regulation?
If so, that would necessarily mean an ordinance/regulation adequately addressing this scenario was not already in place at the time of the incident, no?
As such, I can't imagine how the City and/or Police Department are "on the hook" for Mr. Lotzz's action(s), or what more could be expected of them.
As it stands, I think Lottz is guilty more of a moral error than a legal one---I understand that legally the mirror is a gray area, but nobody has provided a moral defense for installing an undisclosed two-way mirror in a women's restroom for fun. But I think we can all agree that it'd be good to have something on the books ratifying respect for women's privacy.
Toward a Complete List of Responses People Have Given to Ronnie Lottz Installing an Undisclosed Two-Way Mirror in the Women's Restroom of His Bar
1. Relax! It's just a joke.
2. There are women who say he's a-OK, you know.
3. He does a lot of good in the community. Just talk to his friends.
4. If it was such a big deal to her, why couldn't she just talk to him about it?
5. He's been this way for years. If you really cared you would've been on this earlier. Now it's too late.
6. Look, what he does is really nobody's business but his. Just leave him alone. If he did something wrong, then everybody around him will sort it out.
7. He means no harm. He's just kind of weird and offensive with everybody.
8. Look, the guy is really just misunderstood. You just need to take the time to understand him.
9. This isn't the sort of thing we should be wasting tax dollars and police time on.
10. There's nothing strictly illegal about it, so stop talking about it like there's something illegal here.
11. This isn't really about what she's saying it is. She's just out to get attention for herself.
12. I'm not saying he's doing the right thing, but how do you know he's doing something wrong?
13. Can't we talk about something else?
Same list, different title. Still accurate?
Things People Say in Defense of Emotionally Abusive Men
1. Relax! It's just a joke.
2. There are women who say he's a-OK, you know.
3. He does a lot of good in the community. Just talk to his friends.
4. If it was such a big deal to her, why couldn't she just talk to him about it?
5. He's been this way for years. If you really cared you would've been on this earlier. Now it's too late.
6. Look, what he does is really nobody's business but his. Just leave him alone. If he did something wrong, then everybody around him will sort it out.
7. He means no harm. He's just kind of weird and offensive with everybody.
8. Look, the guy is really just misunderstood. You just need to take the time to understand him.
9. This isn't the sort of thing we should be wasting tax dollars and police time on.
10. There's nothing strictly illegal about it, so stop talking about it like there's something illegal here.
11. This isn't really about what she's saying it is. She's just out to get attention for herself.
12. I'm not saying he's doing the right thing, but how do you know he's doing something wrong?
13. Can't we talk about something else?
Story in the Berwyn Life. The owner says he may be taking down the mirror:
... the owner of the business that brought the issue to the forefront said it may be time to take the mirror down...
... "I feel I made my stand for it," Lottz said. "I just don't want to hinder the community. I don't like some of the things said about Berwyn from people in other states, and that's what it's all about. There's just so many people who don't understand it." ...
http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/2015/05/15/berwyn-mulls-2-way-mirror-law-cigars-and-stripes-owner-says-mirror-will-probably-come-down/as69qyl/?page=1 (http://www.mysuburbanlife.com/2015/05/15/berwyn-mulls-2-way-mirror-law-cigars-and-stripes-owner-says-mirror-will-probably-come-down/as69qyl/?page=1)
I talked to Ronnie yesterday and he said the same thing, the mirror was coming down....
What's he waiting for? It'd be embarrassing if he tried to make this into some kind of "event." In a perfect world he'd just do it and be done with it, and apologize to the woman who shot the video for the atrocious things he said about her. But we all know that's unlikely.
Thank you for posting Ted. That is good news. Now, we all know that Ronnie is not a mature person and has enjoyed the attention he has received, so we wait....
For goodness' sake, every single thing that comes out of this man's mouth is ignorant and shitty:
"I feel I made my stand for it." A stand for what? The ability to make women the object of ridicule?
"I just don't want to hinder the community. I don't like some of the things said about Berwyn from people in other states, and that's what it's all about." The mirror-as-Fatima argument yet again. You can only comprehend the brilliance of what this man has done if you live in-state and witness it yourself!
"There's just so many people who don't understand it." In large part because it's indefensible, and his efforts to help people "understand" involved either 1) trying to change the subject or 2) insulting the woman who shot the video.
"The thing that hurts is that [Tamale Rocks] knew what she was doing." See #2, above.
"I'm so proud to be in business in Berwyn. I don't like the way people are looking at us from the outside. It just took all the fun out of it." It's still nutty that this person thought that this was "fun." He has no friends who can make him understand the wrongness of what he's done?
I went last night for the first time in months. It was probably 60% females, and none were abused by Ronnie.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 06:44:22 PM
What's he waiting for? It'd be embarrassing if he tried to make this into some kind of "event."
Disagree. He should make it some kind of event.
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 19, 2015, 08:42:42 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 06:44:22 PM
What's he waiting for? It'd be embarrassing if he tried to make this into some kind of "event."
Disagree. He should make it some kind of event.
Why?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 08:43:55 PM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 19, 2015, 08:42:42 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 06:44:22 PM
What's he waiting for? It'd be embarrassing if he tried to make this into some kind of "event."
Disagree. He should make it some kind of event.
Why?
Fun for the patrons, $$$ and pub for the bar.
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 19, 2015, 09:03:45 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 08:43:55 PM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 19, 2015, 08:42:42 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 06:44:22 PM
What's he waiting for? It'd be embarrassing if he tried to make this into some kind of "event."
Disagree. He should make it some kind of event.
Why?
Fun for the patrons, $$$ and pub for the bar.
Well, his food makes your tum-tum feel good; I suppose you feel that's the important thing.
Will the patrons host a rally demanding that the mirror stay up? They've expended all this effort defending it, after all.
Suggest chants for the Cigars & Stripes Keep-the-Mirror-Up Rally:
"Hey hey ho ho women with opinions contrary to those of Ronnie Lottz's have got to go!"
"What do we want?" "The ability to create an at least insulting and at most actively threatening environment for women!" "When do we want it?" "Now!"
"Ho ho hey hey the BPD showed up and even though the potential for violating women's privacy is obviously still in place they said things here are more or less OK!"
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 09:10:42 PM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 19, 2015, 09:03:45 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 08:43:55 PM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 19, 2015, 08:42:42 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 06:44:22 PM
What's he waiting for? It'd be embarrassing if he tried to make this into some kind of "event."
Disagree. He should make it some kind of event.
Why?
Fun for the patrons, $$$ and pub for the bar.
Well, his food makes your tum-tum feel good; I suppose you feel that's the important thing.
Nope.
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 19, 2015, 09:49:58 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 09:10:42 PM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 19, 2015, 09:03:45 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 08:43:55 PM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 19, 2015, 08:42:42 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 06:44:22 PM
What's he waiting for? It'd be embarrassing if he tried to make this into some kind of "event."
Disagree. He should make it some kind of event.
Why?
Fun for the patrons, $$$ and pub for the bar.
Well, his food makes your tum-tum feel good; I suppose you feel that's the important thing.
Nope.
OK.
How much money did Ronnie Lottz's effort to raise funds in the fight against cyberbullying pull in?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 09:11:35 PM
Will the patrons host a rally demanding that the mirror stay up? They've expended all this effort defending it, after all.
Effort? Typing on a computer? Silly.
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 19, 2015, 09:55:00 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 19, 2015, 09:11:35 PM
Will the patrons host a rally demanding that the mirror stay up? They've expended all this effort defending it, after all.
Effort? Typing on a computer? Silly.
They all sounded so eager to show that woman her place!
So in the past day or so a new line of rationalization has emerged to defend Ronnie Lottz's actions: Hey, did you know that WOMEN are still going to this place despite everything that's happened? Lottz has been keeping track of the gender ratios among his patrons the last couple of nights. Even Bonster, who's taken a line of willfull ignorance about the issue (I don't know nuffin' about nuffin' but I know his hot wings are good!) made a point of saying he observed 60 percent women at the place the last time he visited.
There are at least two things wrong with making this point as a defense of the mirror:
1. It doesn't respond to bad behavior, just creates benchmarks for rationalizing it. The presumed argument underpinning Lottz's and Bonster's observations is something like, "If this was really an issue, shouldn't there be NO women going to this place? The fact that women are showing up only proves that people are making something out of nothing!" This removes moral judgment from the individual and puts it up for a vote, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Let's say tonight's attendance at C&S is 80 percent women---does that mean that the mirror is 80 percent OK? If it's 20 percent this weekend, is the mirror only 20 percent OK? Does your sense of moral clarity depend on how others behave? If somebody is murdered at C&S and people show up after it reopens, to what degree does that make murdering somebody OK?
2. It makes this women's problem to fix. Ronnie Lottz is the person who installed an undisclosed two-way mirror in his women's restroom. Ronnie Lottz is the person who likened the female comedian who discovered it to a prostitute. Ronnie Lottz is the person who called the female journalist who called him about it "honey." But by keeping score the way he does, he's making a statement that it's female patrons, not him, who are obligated to address his actions. They have to make decision not to go to his establishment. They have to organize a boycott, or something. And then, if they have acted in ways that meet with Lottz's satisfaction, he might consider perhaps thinking about whether the mirror is a good or bad thing. He is not capable of doing this thinking himself---he must be compelled to do this thinking by women, who must act collectively and with absolute singularity (zero female attendance!) before he can trouble himself with such a thing. These gender sabermetrics send the message that men don't have to think about this.
If you want to defend the mirror, fine. Just please stop using the women who show up to the place as a way to do it.
So what exactly is it Mark that you're trying to accomplish here?
What are you looking for?
A collective BTF condemnation of Ronnie Lottz?
A public lynching of Berwyn City Council?
A general house cleaning of Berwyn P.D.?
Or are you, in the words of OPS, simply looking to vent?
Be honest with yourself.
11 plus pages of posts, the overwhelming majority which are yours. On a topic where nothing can really be done. You've completely exposed yourself, and in the process given the issue probably 10 pages or so more publicity than it deserved.
I'm looking to learn something, both when it comes to my own thinking (I tend to sort things out by writing about them) and when it comes to others'. And I've learned plenty. I don't believe I can actually change things, but since when did that become the point of this site? It's Berwyn Talk Forum, not Berwyn Change Shit Forum.
You say that "nothing can really be done," but that's a demonstrably false statement. After all, there's an alderman who's proposing changes to the city's code, and even Ronnie Lottz has adjusted his thinking on the matter. His stated rationale for that adjustment is less than impressive to me, but it is something being "done" all the same.
Thing is, there has been constant movement on this story since the video of the two-way mirror was posted online. There have been the comedian's comments, Ronnie Lottz's comments, the BPD's actions, the scope and tenor of the media coverage, the shifting rationalizations, changing opinions about what can and can't be done, and the action of the city council.
You say that I've posted too much about this, well past the point when there was anything to say on the matter. When, exactly, should I have stopped?
@markberwyn: Isn't it interesting that you are getting vilified for writing about this subject "Cigars and Stripes". Questioned about why you are writing 11 pages on this topic? What I find interesting is "Why aren't more upset about this?" Why is it okay? Why do people tend to turn their backs and are afraid to speak up about this disgusting subject? Where have morals gone? Is this really acceptable to so many people, or are people that lazy and don't care about the City of Berwyn, where you live?
Yes, one person can make a difference. I have learned this as the mother of three with Developmental Disabilities. As parents who have to face a society that still can't understand and accept, we speak out. We have protest, we march on the capital, we write letters and it started with a small group of parents who said enough is enough. Our children couldn't even attend a school until 1975 when the first law passed.
I find it interesting that people now sit on their butts and don't speak out. What happened to concerned citizens? What happened to caring enough to speak out and share your disgust. Are people that scared about "what someone will think of you?"
Truly amazing.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 20, 2015, 12:48:13 PM
If you want to defend the mirror, fine. Just please stop using the women who show up to the place as a way to do it.
Who did that?
(I don't feel like reading through this entire thread)
Quote from: markberwyn on May 20, 2015, 12:48:13 PM
Even Bonster, who's taken a line of willfull ignorance about the issue (I don't know nuffin' about nuffin' but I know his hot wings are good!) made a point of saying he observed 60 percent women at the place the last time he visited.
I never said anything about something which does not exist at the place; you must be thinking of someone else's post. Yes... your own; the post where I clarified what they serve.
Willful ignorance about "the issue?" True, I haven't taken the time to read this entire thread, so I don't know what your issue is.
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 20, 2015, 10:22:37 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 20, 2015, 12:48:13 PM
If you want to defend the mirror, fine. Just please stop using the women who show up to the place as a way to do it.
Who did that?
(I don't feel like reading through this entire thread)
Dudes who count the number of women in the bar like it's some kind of argument for something. But I know you don't want to talk about that. Enjoy your hot wings!
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 20, 2015, 10:32:36 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 20, 2015, 12:48:13 PM
Even Bonster, who's taken a line of willfull ignorance about the issue (I don't know nuffin' about nuffin' but I know his hot wings are good!) made a point of saying he observed 60 percent women at the place the last time he visited.
I never said anything about something which does not exist at the place; you must be thinking of someone else's post. Yes... your own; the post where I clarified what they serve.
Willful ignorance about "the issue?" True, I haven't taken the time to read this entire thread, so I don't know what your issue is.
You seem very eager to post regularly on a thread you're not reading.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 20, 2015, 10:36:04 PM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 20, 2015, 10:22:37 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 20, 2015, 12:48:13 PM
If you want to defend the mirror, fine. Just please stop using the women who show up to the place as a way to do it.
Who did that?
(I don't feel like reading through this entire thread)
Dudes who count the number of women in the bar like it's some kind of argument for something. But I know you don't want to talk about that. Enjoy your hot wings!
Dude's got jokes! (and bad inferences)
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 20, 2015, 10:45:40 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 20, 2015, 10:36:04 PM
Quote from: B o n s t e r on May 20, 2015, 10:22:37 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 20, 2015, 12:48:13 PM
If you want to defend the mirror, fine. Just please stop using the women who show up to the place as a way to do it.
Who did that?
(I don't feel like reading through this entire thread)
Dudes who count the number of women in the bar like it's some kind of argument for something. But I know you don't want to talk about that. Enjoy your hot wings!
Dude's got jokes! (and bad inferences)
OK.
Quote from: Cathy on May 20, 2015, 09:09:35 PM
We have protest, we march on the capital, we write letters
Then why not do so in this case?
Write your alderman/congressman, call the local news, start an online petition, heck, stage a boycott/protest in front of the place if you like.
I'm fairly certain you would get a lot of support.
Nonetheless, IMO, the reason Mark is basically talking to himself for 11 pages on this thread is simply because he has lost his audience...on an issue where most wholeheartedly agree with his basic premise.
Why?
Because this thread isnt a sincere discussion on the
unacceptable behavior of ONE individual but rather a generalized rant against all things Berwyn....the Mayor, City Council, Berwyn P.D., old time Berwynites, newbie Berwynites, misogynists, chicken wing lovers, craft beer enthusiasts, cigar afficionados, etc., etc., etc.....
If Mark takes the time to step down from his soap box and put his ego in check, he would concede as much. If not, my guess is he'll continue talking to himself.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 21, 2015, 10:52:52 AM
Quote from: Cathy on May 20, 2015, 09:09:35 PM
We have protest, we march on the capital, we write letters
Then why not do so in this case?
Write your alderman/congressman, call the local news, start an online petition, heck, stage a boycott/protest in front of the place if you like.
I'm fairly certain you would get a lot of support.
Well, hell, why don't
you do it? After all, you yourself said Lottz's actions are unacceptable.
Interesting interview yesterday with the comedian who shot the video, talking about the city council's recent actions in response to Ronnie Lottz:
https://soundcloud.com/vocalo/council-of-feminsit-thought-tamale-sepp-cigars-and-stripes-and-the-two-way-mirror
One point she makes is that there are a number of registered sex offenders in proximity to the place, and that Cigars and Stripes hosts family events. I wouldn't usually think this is playing fair, but I think it speaks to the point of not giving bad actors opportunities to be bad actors. And since everything Ronnie Lottz has said publicly expresses active disdain for women expressing concern about violation, I think it's fine to put it on the table.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 21, 2015, 11:27:06 AM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 21, 2015, 10:52:52 AM
Quote from: Cathy on May 20, 2015, 09:09:35 PM
We have protest, we march on the capital, we write letters
Then why not do so in this case?
Write your alderman/congressman, call the local news, start an online petition, heck, stage a boycott/protest in front of the place if you like.
I'm fairly certain you would get a lot of support.
Well, hell, why don't you do it? After all, you yourself said Lottz's actions are unacceptable.
Never mind, I forgot you said it'd be better to let the market fix it.
Other than the mirror the bar is a peaceful place?
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 21, 2015, 12:12:07 PM
Other than the mirror the bar is a peaceful place?
Let's say yes. What of it?
Ronnie Lottz, back in the national spotlight. Jezebel today:
http://jezebel.com/cigars-stripes-town-ponders-anti-two-way-mirror-law-1706003929 (http://jezebel.com/cigars-stripes-town-ponders-anti-two-way-mirror-law-1706003929)
What of it?Are there much worse bars n the area? Lets close all of them,I'm not a fan of bars and believe a town such as Berwyn could be better off without them.
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 21, 2015, 01:37:04 PM
What of it?Are there much worse bars n the area?
Why are you trying to change the subject? Are you saying that an undisclosed two-way mirror in a women's restroom isn't a problem?
I don't go to the women's washroom,haven't seen the mirror and never will.If the door that the mirror is attached to can be locked,how then can the mirror function as a problem? I'll bet the owner loves the publicity that we give his business! Another solution,change the women's washroom to the men's room!!!!
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 21, 2015, 01:55:18 PMIf the door that the mirror is attached to can be locked,how then can the mirror function as a problem?
Who's doing the locking and unlocking? How do you know it's being handled consistently?
Good question?
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 21, 2015, 07:34:18 PM
Good question?
Terrible questions, actually. It'd be better if the questions didn't need to be asked.
When I was younger no one dared put something like a mirror in the women's room,the mirror would be gone! and I mean gone simple as that.There was respect for women!
Interesting discussion and comments at this Huffington Post podcast:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/21/ronnie-lottz-2-way-mirror_n_7414064.html (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/21/ronnie-lottz-2-way-mirror_n_7414064.html)
Ronnie Lottz has been silent the last couple of days: No apologies for his behavior, nor further word about when he'll be removing the mirror. Was he just blowing smoke about taking the mirror down?
Doofy misogynist bar owner Ronnie Lottz's latest strategy: He's just not being heard! He's lecturing a couple of Chicago media people about how he needs to "command their attention."
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/601824876983230464
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/601826085085392896
Hours of time on TV and radio, plus plenty of quotes to local and national media, and this person is still claiming victimhood.
What is the status of his plan to maybe-kinda-sorta-perhaps take down the mirror? Anything happening with that?
I just listened to the HuffPost interview dated May 22nd. What a Roast of Berwyn and the Berwyn Police. Disgusting!!!!
You guys crack me up :)
This interview is hilarious Ronnie Lottz saves the show!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/21/ronnie-lottz-2-way-mirror_n_7414064.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063 (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/05/21/ronnie-lottz-2-way-mirror_n_7414064.html?ncid=fcbklnkushpmg00000063)
Paddle faster, Mark. I hear banjo music.... LOL
Quote from: Cathy on May 24, 2015, 11:36:06 PM
I just listened to the HuffPost interview dated May 22nd. What a Roast of Berwyn and the Berwyn Police. Disgusting!!!!
Can someone please explain to me why the Berwyn PD, and to a lesser extent, is being "roasted"?
I don't get it.
Quote from: Ted on May 25, 2015, 04:14:57 AM
Paddle faster, Mark. I hear banjo music.... LOL
It would appear we're rapidly approaching peak dipshit.
Interesting comment that C&S has allowed on its Facebook page:
Quote
I don't know whats more pathetic, the fact that those clueless "reporters" at Huffington Post are waxing poetic about C&S trying to spin things or the fact that they are Johnny come latelys since this news is nearly a month old. It also appears that Tamale Rocks (in the head) has been keeping a low profile lately, could this be that her viral video exposure led to the masses viewing her godawful "comedy" videos and nobody wants to book her or shes realized what as ass shes made out of herself now & won't go out in public? Or perhaps shes scared since shes also made a lot of enemies now. It doesn't matter, as long as the world never has to endure sitting thru one of her failed acts again or hear her annoying nasally whiny voice, I'm content.
Setting aside the gratuitous insults toward the comedian, it's a little troubling to read about a C&S patron hoping she feels scared "since shes also made a lot of enemies now."
This is a culture that Ronnie Lottz is actively creating in Berwyn.
I dont think Ronnie creates anything in Berwyn...his sphere of influence is basically limited to Cigars and Stripes.
Btw, I've had the opportunity to since go into Cigars and Stripes and view the area in question.
After listening to the interview, I believe Lotzz has trouble enunciating his basic point(s).
The entire womens restroom area is divided by the door in question. On the one side is the toilet and the other the mop closet (for lack of a better term). The ONLY access to the concealed mop closet is through the womens restroom entrance. The door itself does contain a two way mirror. However, once the womens restroom door closes the lights in the room go on. There is no light switch one manually operates.
Ronnie claims that once the restroom door closes and the lights go on one can see through the door with the two way mirror into the mop closet. I'm not so sure about that. Assuming thats the case though, the broom closet would be clearly visible from the toilet area. Additionally, if someone WERE to hide and/or conceal themselves in this broom closet, they would have to enter AND exit from the ladies restroom entrance. Highly unlikely.
The above being said, the appearance of impropriety and lack of good judgment/sense/taste is overwhelming. This should have never been allowed to happen, intentionally or unintentionally.
Nonetheless, I still fail to see where any invasion of privacy/criminal offense and/or ordinance violation has occcurred here. Nor can I see how the Mayor, City, and/or Police Department is at fault and/or to blame.
May we now go on and drop the subject? Enough is enough were only spinning our wheels.
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 25, 2015, 11:58:39 AM
May we now go on and drop the subject? Enough is enough were only spinning our wheels.
Ronnie Lottz, who was a finalist for an award from the BDC for improving Berwyn's reputation, said the mirror would be coming down. What is he waiting for?
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:40:44 AM
Nonetheless, I still fail to see where any invasion of privacy/criminal offense and/or ordinance violation has occcurred here. Nor can I see how the Mayor, City, and/or Police Department is at fault and/or to blame.
Take it up with Marge Paul, who apparently believes the city has a responsibility to respond to the environment that Ronnie Lottz is creating in Berwyn.
Are there not many other bars that create much more of a problem?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 12:45:27 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:40:44 AM
Nonetheless, I still fail to see where any invasion of privacy/criminal offense and/or ordinance violation has occcurred here. Nor can I see how the Mayor, City, and/or Police Department is at fault and/or to blame.
Take it up with Marge Paul, who apparently believes the city has a responsibility to respond to the environment that Ronnie Lottz is creating in Berwyn.
How is the city responsible for the two way mirror? Not what the city can do EX POST FACTO to address the issue but rather how are they liable for the incident in question?
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 02:12:28 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 12:45:27 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:40:44 AM
Nonetheless, I still fail to see where any invasion of privacy/criminal offense and/or ordinance violation has occcurred here. Nor can I see how the Mayor, City, and/or Police Department is at fault and/or to blame.
Take it up with Marge Paul, who apparently believes the city has a responsibility to respond to the environment that Ronnie Lottz is creating in Berwyn.
How is the city responsible for the two way mirror? Not what the city can do EX POST FACTO to address the issue but rather how are they liable for the incident in question?
The city is doing exactly what it ought to do by discussing an ordinance. And again, I think Cigars and Stripes should have all permit requests rejected by the city council until the mirror is taken down; the city is responsible for the welfare of its citizens, and approving permit requests is tacit approval of potentially exploitative behavior. He deserves no special dispensation.
Moot point, though, right? Ronnie Lottz says the mirror will be taken down "soon." Perhaps he'll also be apologizing for tracking gender ratios in his establishment and calling women "prostitute," "bitch," and "c*nt" as well?
How does the mirror differ from bars that have lingerie shows? or is this something in the past?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 02:18:47 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 02:12:28 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 12:45:27 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:40:44 AM
Nonetheless, I still fail to see where any invasion of privacy/criminal offense and/or ordinance violation has occcurred here. Nor can I see how the Mayor, City, and/or Police Department is at fault and/or to blame.
Take it up with Marge Paul, who apparently believes the city has a responsibility to respond to the environment that Ronnie Lottz is creating in Berwyn.
How is the city responsible for the two way mirror? Not what the city can do EX POST FACTO to address the issue but rather how are they liable for the incident in question?
The city is doing exactly what it ought to do by discussing an ordinance. And again, I think Cigars and Stripes should have all permit requests rejected by the city council until the mirror is taken down; the city is responsible for the welfare of its citizens, and approving permit requests is tacit approval of potentially exploitative behavior. He deserves no special dispensation.
Moot point, though, right? Ronnie Lottz says the mirror will be taken down "soon." Perhaps he'll also be apologizing for tracking gender ratios in his establishment and calling women "prostitute," "bitch," and "c*nt" as well?
That's not what I asked you.
What I asked is how is the City or PD responsible for the incident in question.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 03:05:36 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 02:18:47 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 02:12:28 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 12:45:27 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:40:44 AM
Nonetheless, I still fail to see where any invasion of privacy/criminal offense and/or ordinance violation has occcurred here. Nor can I see how the Mayor, City, and/or Police Department is at fault and/or to blame.
Take it up with Marge Paul, who apparently believes the city has a responsibility to respond to the environment that Ronnie Lottz is creating in Berwyn.
How is the city responsible for the two way mirror? Not what the city can do EX POST FACTO to address the issue but rather how are they liable for the incident in question?
The city is doing exactly what it ought to do by discussing an ordinance. And again, I think Cigars and Stripes should have all permit requests rejected by the city council until the mirror is taken down; the city is responsible for the welfare of its citizens, and approving permit requests is tacit approval of potentially exploitative behavior. He deserves no special dispensation.
Moot point, though, right? Ronnie Lottz says the mirror will be taken down "soon." Perhaps he'll also be apologizing for tracking gender ratios in his establishment and calling women "prostitute," "bitch," and "c*nt" as well?
That's not what I asked you.
What I asked is how is the City or PD responsible for the incident in question.
And I answered you: Ask Marge Paul.
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 25, 2015, 02:45:32 PM
How does the mirror differ from bars that have lingerie shows? or is this something in the past?
The places that had lingerie shows had hot wings, I think?
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 03:05:36 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 02:18:47 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 02:12:28 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 12:45:27 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:40:44 AM
Nonetheless, I still fail to see where any invasion of privacy/criminal offense and/or ordinance violation has occcurred here. Nor can I see how the Mayor, City, and/or Police Department is at fault and/or to blame.
Take it up with Marge Paul, who apparently believes the city has a responsibility to respond to the environment that Ronnie Lottz is creating in Berwyn.
How is the city responsible for the two way mirror? Not what the city can do EX POST FACTO to address the issue but rather how are they liable for the incident in question?
The city is doing exactly what it ought to do by discussing an ordinance. And again, I think Cigars and Stripes should have all permit requests rejected by the city council until the mirror is taken down; the city is responsible for the welfare of its citizens, and approving permit requests is tacit approval of potentially exploitative behavior. He deserves no special dispensation.
Moot point, though, right? Ronnie Lottz says the mirror will be taken down "soon." Perhaps he'll also be apologizing for tracking gender ratios in his establishment and calling women "prostitute," "bitch," and "c*nt" as well?
That's not what I asked you.
What I asked is how is the City or PD responsible for the incident in question.
I'm asking YOU, not Marge.
YOU'RE the guy that went on the anti Berwyn rampage, aren't you?
I didn't see or hear Marge bashing Berwyn, at all. After all, if she did, she would be bashing herself.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 06:07:39 PM
I'm asking YOU, not Marge.
YOU'RE the guy that went on the anti Berwyn rampage, aren't you?
I didn't see or hear Marge bashing Berwyn, at all. After all, if she did, she would be bashing herself.
I suppose my answer to your question is that I don't understand your question. There ain't no POST in the FACTO---the mirror is still up in the establishment, correct?
I think what you're trying to swaggeringly assert is that the city has no place in this situation. But there's nothing out of line with the city drawing up a regulation to help ensure that every person (and especially every woman) has a reasonable expectation of privacy when they enter a restroom, and that they're not in an environment where they risk being exploited. The only answer that Ronnie Lottz and his supporters have given to this is something along the lines of, "Ain't nothin' happening there! You can trust Ronnie Lottz and his staff!" But if Ronnie Lottz is willing to lie to the media about taking down the mirror, what else is he and his staff willing to lie about?
My question is very simple....what fault do the city and pd have in the incident in question, for you absolutely waylayed both in this thread initially.
Very simple question.
I would imagine the answer is simple as well.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 07:35:32 PM
My question is very simple....what fault do the city and pd have in the incident in question, for you absolutely waylayed both in this thread initially.
Very simple question.
I would imagine the answer is simple as well.
I don't know what you mean by "incident in question." Ronnie Lottz putting up the mirror? His not telling people about it? His using it to prank women? The comedian discovering it?
In any event, it's not the city's and police department's "fault" that any of these things happened---Ronnie Lottz installed the mirror to hold women up to ridicule, not the city and police department. But the point, to me, isn't whether the city or police department are liable for any of those things---I don't think you can sue them for it. But to the extent that the city has a responsibility for the well-being of its citizens, I see nothing wrong with the city pursuing an ordinance barring two-way mirrors in establishments like Ronnie Lottz's. I also see nothing wrong with the city council voting down any permit and TIF-funding requests he brings to it, to send a message to him that his actions as a businessowner don't represent Berwyn's best interests.
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 25, 2015, 02:45:32 PM
How does the mirror differ from bars that have lingerie shows? or is this something in the past?
I think the situations have some similarities. Back then, my memory is that the city also had to create an ordinance to stop the lingerie shows. I remember this being discussed at city council meetings in the 90s.
The "lingerie" show was viewed as an attempt by that particular bar/restaurant to get around the city ordinances against strip clubs.
So, my memory is that the city changed the law, similar to what is going on with the 2-way mirror at C&S.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 07:48:02 PM
In any event, it's not the city's and police department's "fault" that any of these things happened---Ronnie Lottz installed the mirror to hold women up to ridicule, not the city and police department. But the point, to me, isn't whether the city or police department are liable for any of those things---I don't think you can sue them for it.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere....we all agree that the police department is not responsible nor is there anything they could have done before, during or after the fact. Correct?
If so, then how do you explain this:
Quote from: markberwyn on April 28, 2015, 12:50:53 PM
FWIW, I think the BPD needs to own some of this too. What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?
What exactly is it that the BPD "needs to own"?
What "action" did you expect/want the BPD to take?
I'm all ears....
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 08:33:30 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 07:48:02 PM
In any event, it's not the city's and police department's "fault" that any of these things happened---Ronnie Lottz installed the mirror to hold women up to ridicule, not the city and police department. But the point, to me, isn't whether the city or police department are liable for any of those things---I don't think you can sue them for it.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere....we all agree that the police department is not responsible nor is there anything they could have done before, during or after the fact. Correct?
If so, then how do you explain this:
Quote from: markberwyn on April 28, 2015, 12:50:53 PM
FWIW, I think the BPD needs to own some of this too. What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?
What exactly is it that the BPD "needs to own"?
What "action" did you expect/want the BPD to take?
I'm all ears....
Exactly what I said---the BPD needs to send a message that sexual exploitation and surveillance are unacceptable. I don't think the BPD can be sued for anything, but I think their response was plainly subpar. Taking a look-see and saying everything is a-OK because there are no cameras and wires was weak, similar to the way women's claims of stalking and harassment are often dismissed because "there's no hard evidence of anything going on."
Creating an environment where women have the potential to be exploited is not OK. I think the BPD failed to send that message to the public in general and Ronnie Lottz in particular. It's like I said: "What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?"
Of course, if the BPD assisted Marge Paul in drafting the ordinance, and speaks out publicly in support of it, I'd be happy to retract my assessment.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 08:55:26 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 08:33:30 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 07:48:02 PM
In any event, it's not the city's and police department's "fault" that any of these things happened---Ronnie Lottz installed the mirror to hold women up to ridicule, not the city and police department. But the point, to me, isn't whether the city or police department are liable for any of those things---I don't think you can sue them for it.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere....we all agree that the police department is not responsible nor is there anything they could have done before, during or after the fact. Correct?
If so, then how do you explain this:
Quote from: markberwyn on April 28, 2015, 12:50:53 PM
FWIW, I think the BPD needs to own some of this too. What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?
What exactly is it that the BPD "needs to own"?
What "action" did you expect/want the BPD to take?
I'm all ears....
Exactly what I said---the BPD needs to send a message that sexual exploitation and surveillance are unacceptable. I don't think the BPD can be sued for anything, but I think their response was plainly subpar. Taking a look-see and saying everything is a-OK because there are no cameras and wires was weak, similar to the way women's claims of stalking and harassment are often dismissed because "there's no hard evidence of anything going on."
Creating an environment where women have the potential to be exploited is not OK. I think the BPD failed to send that message to the public in general and Ronnie Lottz in particular. It's like I said: "What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?"
How exactly was their response subpar?
What additional action were you expecting?
The BPD is in the business of enforcing existing laws and statutes.
There were NO crimes committed or laws violated.
What else did you want them to do?
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 09:07:36 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 08:55:26 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 08:33:30 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 07:48:02 PM
In any event, it's not the city's and police department's "fault" that any of these things happened---Ronnie Lottz installed the mirror to hold women up to ridicule, not the city and police department. But the point, to me, isn't whether the city or police department are liable for any of those things---I don't think you can sue them for it.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere....we all agree that the police department is not responsible nor is there anything they could have done before, during or after the fact. Correct?
If so, then how do you explain this:
Quote from: markberwyn on April 28, 2015, 12:50:53 PM
FWIW, I think the BPD needs to own some of this too. What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?
What exactly is it that the BPD "needs to own"?
What "action" did you expect/want the BPD to take?
I'm all ears....
Exactly what I said---the BPD needs to send a message that sexual exploitation and surveillance are unacceptable. I don't think the BPD can be sued for anything, but I think their response was plainly subpar. Taking a look-see and saying everything is a-OK because there are no cameras and wires was weak, similar to the way women's claims of stalking and harassment are often dismissed because "there's no hard evidence of anything going on."
Creating an environment where women have the potential to be exploited is not OK. I think the BPD failed to send that message to the public in general and Ronnie Lottz in particular. It's like I said: "What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?"
How exactly was their response subpar?
What additional action were you expecting?
The BPD is in the business of enforcing existing laws and statutes.
There were NO crimes committed or laws violated.
What else did you want them to do?
I just answered those questions. Would you like me to type my previous reply again?
I don't think Jackal is being actively mean-spirited in needling me with his questions. But it's important to note that his "no laws were broken!" line plays right into the hands of misogynists and abusers. It gives them license to continue their bad behavior so long as they don't do something illegal---and the laws regarding harassment and stalking can be weak and forbidding to women who are suffering through it.
Point is, Ronnie Lottz is creating an environment where people can act badly toward women. I do hope he can be compelled to stop creating that environment.
Thank you Ronnie! you've given a few something to write about,time to promote something else!!
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 09:27:52 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 09:07:36 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 08:55:26 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 08:33:30 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 07:48:02 PM
In any event, it's not the city's and police department's "fault" that any of these things happened---Ronnie Lottz installed the mirror to hold women up to ridicule, not the city and police department. But the point, to me, isn't whether the city or police department are liable for any of those things---I don't think you can sue them for it.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere....we all agree that the police department is not responsible nor is there anything they could have done before, during or after the fact. Correct?
If so, then how do you explain this:
Quote from: markberwyn on April 28, 2015, 12:50:53 PM
FWIW, I think the BPD needs to own some of this too. What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?
What exactly is it that the BPD "needs to own"?
What "action" did you expect/want the BPD to take?
I'm all ears....
Exactly what I said---the BPD needs to send a message that sexual exploitation and surveillance are unacceptable. I don't think the BPD can be sued for anything, but I think their response was plainly subpar. Taking a look-see and saying everything is a-OK because there are no cameras and wires was weak, similar to the way women's claims of stalking and harassment are often dismissed because "there's no hard evidence of anything going on."
Creating an environment where women have the potential to be exploited is not OK. I think the BPD failed to send that message to the public in general and Ronnie Lottz in particular. It's like I said: "What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?"
How exactly was their response subpar?
What additional action were you expecting?
The BPD is in the business of enforcing existing laws and statutes.
There were NO crimes committed or laws violated.
What else did you want them to do?
I just answered those questions. Would you like me to type my previous reply again?
No, you didnt answer ANY of my questions.
1) What was subpar about their response?
2) What additional action were you expecting?
Simple questions.
Should elicit simple responses.
You can even number the responses accordingly.
And no, help Marge Paul draft an ordinance isn't an answer. The Berwyn PD isnt qualified to draft ordinances, nor is it their function.
Now back again to the two questions posed, because you really took Berwyn PD to task initially, then backpedalled some, and now are indirectly going on the offensive again.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 09:32:48 PM
I don't think Jackal is being actively mean-spirited in needling me with his questions. But it's important to note that his "no laws were broken!" line plays right into the hands of misogynists and abusers. It gives them license to continue their bad behavior so long as they don't do something illegal---and the laws regarding harassment and stalking can be weak and forbidding to women who are suffering through it.
Point is, Ronnie Lottz is creating an environment where people can act badly toward women. I do hope he can be compelled to stop creating that environment.
Ah NO, WRONG...AGAIN.
My response that no law was broken didnt go to the propriety of Mr. Lottz's action(s), it went to the propriety of the Berwyn P.D.'s response to the situation, for that is what you initially attacked, undeservedly so.
I've asked you numerous times what was inappropriate and/or insufficient about the Berwyn P.D. response, and still no answer.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 10:51:04 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 09:27:52 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 09:07:36 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 08:55:26 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 08:33:30 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 07:48:02 PM
In any event, it's not the city's and police department's "fault" that any of these things happened---Ronnie Lottz installed the mirror to hold women up to ridicule, not the city and police department. But the point, to me, isn't whether the city or police department are liable for any of those things---I don't think you can sue them for it.
Ok, now we're getting somewhere....we all agree that the police department is not responsible nor is there anything they could have done before, during or after the fact. Correct?
If so, then how do you explain this:
Quote from: markberwyn on April 28, 2015, 12:50:53 PM
FWIW, I think the BPD needs to own some of this too. What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?
What exactly is it that the BPD "needs to own"?
What "action" did you expect/want the BPD to take?
I'm all ears....
Exactly what I said---the BPD needs to send a message that sexual exploitation and surveillance are unacceptable. I don't think the BPD can be sued for anything, but I think their response was plainly subpar. Taking a look-see and saying everything is a-OK because there are no cameras and wires was weak, similar to the way women's claims of stalking and harassment are often dismissed because "there's no hard evidence of anything going on."
Creating an environment where women have the potential to be exploited is not OK. I think the BPD failed to send that message to the public in general and Ronnie Lottz in particular. It's like I said: "What message does it send to women in Berwyn who are sexually harrassed that the police have looked at this situation and decided it doesn't merit action?"
How exactly was their response subpar?
What additional action were you expecting?
The BPD is in the business of enforcing existing laws and statutes.
There were NO crimes committed or laws violated.
What else did you want them to do?
I just answered those questions. Would you like me to type my previous reply again?
No, you didnt answer ANY of my questions.
1) What was subpar about their response?
2) What additional action were you expecting?
Simple questions.
Should elicit simple responses.
You can even number the responses accordingly.
And no, help Marge Paul draft an ordinance isn't an answer. The Berwyn D isnt qualified to draft ordinances, nor is it their function.
Now back again to the two questions posed, because you really took Berwyn PD to task initially, then backpedalled some, and now are indirectly going on the offensive again.
You seem upset.
There are questions I've asked you directly that you've chosen to ignore (http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=13630.msg221132#msg221132 (http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=13630.msg221132#msg221132)), so I think you're just going to have to be disappointed in me not responding to your questions three times over.
You say you spoke with Ronnie Lottz about his taking down the mirror. Did he give you a timeline for when that might be happening? Or is your feeling now that he was playing you? Perhaps you're easily fooled by Ronnie Lottz.
Mark, I didn't attack anybody (like you did), nor can anything I've posted be reasonably construed as me being upset...at all. Nice try at moving the goalposts, especially after you concede you're actively avoiding my two questions regarding Berwyn PD.
You slammed the Berwyn PD yet can not give one example of how their work on the issue was inappropriate and/or what you were expecting in response. Your prerogative.....I guess.
For the sake of this thread though, lets recap...
1) You slammed the Berwyn PD for their "subpar" response....yet can't articulate what exactly was subpar about it. I'm guessing thats because amidst your blind fury you realized that no law was broken and hence no response possible.
2) You bashed the Berwyn PD for not taking further action, yet can't articulate what further action could have been taken or what further action you were expecting. Unless of course youre talking about helping Marge Paul draft ordinances...except that Berwyn PD is unqualified to draft ordinances and it isnt within their function to do so. Minor details, I know, but nonetheless probably important and relevant.
3) You criticize "Berwyn" for not doing anything about this issue as well. When asked "What should Berwyn do?", you claim, amongst other things, not grant Lottz any TIF money or city permits. Well, since this story broke, exactly what TIF funds/city permits has Mr. Lottz applied for and/or received from the City?
4) You hammer the City for its apparent inactivity since this story broke yet applaud Ald. Paul for placing a proposed amendment on the council agenda. Which is fine and dandy, we all commend Ald. Paul for her proactive stance, but wouldn't that also mean that Ald. Paul should be criticized for not having the foresight to address this issue BEFORE the incident with the comedienne occurred/this story broke? Or is it only the seven remaining aldermen (and mayor) who should be criticized for not having the foresight to anticipate that a local bar owner would install a two way mirror in the womens restroom in his bar? I mean, this IS an everyday occurrence that can be easily anticipated by any reasonable person, isn't it?
5) You pound "old time" Berwynites, yet when confronted with attestations (from Ted and others) that its the "old time" Berwynites who are most upset with Mr. Lotzz, you conveniently disregard and/or change the subject.
In fact, in your blind fury you've waylayed just about everyone and everything....the overwhelming majority without any reasonable cause.
Take OPS's advice...BREATHE, collect yourself, and focus one the one individual who IS responsible for your ire...Mr. Lottz.
I'm guessing that you would get a lot more support for your position, and responses to your posts, if you would heed that advice. Just a guess.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:37:42 PM
For the sake of this thread though, lets recap...
1) You slammed the Berwyn PD for their "subpar" response....yet can't articulate what exactly was subpar about it. I'm guessing thats because amidst your blind fury you realized that no law was broken and hence no response possible.
2) You bashed the Berwyn PD for not taking further action, yet can't articulate what further action could have been taken or what further action you were expecting. Unless of course youre talking about helping Marge Paul draft ordinances...except that Berwyn PD is unqualified to draft ordinances and it isnt within their function to do so. Minor details, I know, but nonetheless probably important and relevant.
3) You criticize "Berwyn" for not doing anything about this issue as well. When asked "What should Berwyn do?", you claim, amongst other things, not grant Lottz any TIF money. Well, since this story broke, exactly what TIF funds has Mr. Lottz applied for and/or received from the City?
4) You hammer the City for its apparent inactivity since this story broke yet applaud Ald. Paul for placing a proposed amendment on the council agenda. Which is fine and dandy, we all commend Ald. Paul for her proactive stance, but wouldn't that also mean that Ald. Paul should be criticized for not having the foresight to address this issue BEFORE the incident with the comedienne occurred/this story broke? Or is it only the seven remaining aldermen (and mayor) who should be criticized for not having the foresight to anticipate that a local bar owner would install a two way mirror in the womens restroom in his bar? I mean, this IS an everyday occurrence that can be easily anticipated by any reasonable person, isn't it?
5) You pound "old time" Berwynites, yet when confronted with attestations (from Ted and others) that its the "old time" Berwynites who are most upset with Mr. Lotzz, you conveniently disregard and/or change the subject.
In fact, in your blind fury you've waylayed just about everyone and everything....the overwhelming majority without any reasonable cause.
Take OPS's advice...BREATHE, collect yourself, and focus one the one individual who IS responsible for your ire...Mr. Lottz.
I'm guessing that you would get a lot more support for your position, and responses to your posts, if you would heed that advice. Just a guess.
You said Ronnie Lottz told you he was going to take the mirror down. Did you think to ask him when that might be happening?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 11:42:47 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:37:42 PM
For the sake of this thread though, lets recap...
1) You slammed the Berwyn PD for their "subpar" response....yet can't articulate what exactly was subpar about it. I'm guessing thats because amidst your blind fury you realized that no law was broken and hence no response possible.
2) You bashed the Berwyn PD for not taking further action, yet can't articulate what further action could have been taken or what further action you were expecting. Unless of course youre talking about helping Marge Paul draft ordinances...except that Berwyn PD is unqualified to draft ordinances and it isnt within their function to do so. Minor details, I know, but nonetheless probably important and relevant.
3) You criticize "Berwyn" for not doing anything about this issue as well. When asked "What should Berwyn do?", you claim, amongst other things, not grant Lottz any TIF money. Well, since this story broke, exactly what TIF funds has Mr. Lottz applied for and/or received from the City?
4) You hammer the City for its apparent inactivity since this story broke yet applaud Ald. Paul for placing a proposed amendment on the council agenda. Which is fine and dandy, we all commend Ald. Paul for her proactive stance, but wouldn't that also mean that Ald. Paul should be criticized for not having the foresight to address this issue BEFORE the incident with the comedienne occurred/this story broke? Or is it only the seven remaining aldermen (and mayor) who should be criticized for not having the foresight to anticipate that a local bar owner would install a two way mirror in the womens restroom in his bar? I mean, this IS an everyday occurrence that can be easily anticipated by any reasonable person, isn't it?
5) You pound "old time" Berwynites, yet when confronted with attestations (from Ted and others) that its the "old time" Berwynites who are most upset with Mr. Lotzz, you conveniently disregard and/or change the subject.
In fact, in your blind fury you've waylayed just about everyone and everything....the overwhelming majority without any reasonable cause.
Take OPS's advice...BREATHE, collect yourself, and focus one the one individual who IS responsible for your ire...Mr. Lottz.
I'm guessing that you would get a lot more support for your position, and responses to your posts, if you would heed that advice. Just a guess.
You said Ronnie Lottz told you he was going to take the mirror down. Did you think to ask him when that might be happening?
You can call and ask yourself....Cigars and Stripes number is listed.
My guess though is that once the proposed ordinance is passed he will have no choice BUT to bring down the mirror.
No?
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:46:53 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 11:42:47 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:37:42 PM
For the sake of this thread though, lets recap...
1) You slammed the Berwyn PD for their "subpar" response....yet can't articulate what exactly was subpar about it. I'm guessing thats because amidst your blind fury you realized that no law was broken and hence no response possible.
2) You bashed the Berwyn PD for not taking further action, yet can't articulate what further action could have been taken or what further action you were expecting. Unless of course youre talking about helping Marge Paul draft ordinances...except that Berwyn PD is unqualified to draft ordinances and it isnt within their function to do so. Minor details, I know, but nonetheless probably important and relevant.
3) You criticize "Berwyn" for not doing anything about this issue as well. When asked "What should Berwyn do?", you claim, amongst other things, not grant Lottz any TIF money. Well, since this story broke, exactly what TIF funds has Mr. Lottz applied for and/or received from the City?
4) You hammer the City for its apparent inactivity since this story broke yet applaud Ald. Paul for placing a proposed amendment on the council agenda. Which is fine and dandy, we all commend Ald. Paul for her proactive stance, but wouldn't that also mean that Ald. Paul should be criticized for not having the foresight to address this issue BEFORE the incident with the comedienne occurred/this story broke? Or is it only the seven remaining aldermen (and mayor) who should be criticized for not having the foresight to anticipate that a local bar owner would install a two way mirror in the womens restroom in his bar? I mean, this IS an everyday occurrence that can be easily anticipated by any reasonable person, isn't it?
5) You pound "old time" Berwynites, yet when confronted with attestations (from Ted and others) that its the "old time" Berwynites who are most upset with Mr. Lotzz, you conveniently disregard and/or change the subject.
In fact, in your blind fury you've waylayed just about everyone and everything....the overwhelming majority without any reasonable cause.
Take OPS's advice...BREATHE, collect yourself, and focus one the one individual who IS responsible for your ire...Mr. Lottz.
I'm guessing that you would get a lot more support for your position, and responses to your posts, if you would heed that advice. Just a guess.
You said Ronnie Lottz told you he was going to take the mirror down. Did you think to ask him when that might be happening?
You can call and ask yourself....Cigars and Stripes number is listed.
You didn't think to ask. Got it.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:46:53 PM
My guess though is that once the proposed ordinance is passed he will have no choice BUT to bring down the mirror.
No?
It'd be better if he acquired a conscience, took the mirror down now, and apologized for his misogynistic rhetoric. No?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 11:51:07 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:46:53 PM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 11:42:47 PM
Quote from: The Jackal on May 25, 2015, 11:37:42 PM
For the sake of this thread though, lets recap...
1) You slammed the Berwyn PD for their "subpar" response....yet can't articulate what exactly was subpar about it. I'm guessing thats because amidst your blind fury you realized that no law was broken and hence no response possible.
2) You bashed the Berwyn PD for not taking further action, yet can't articulate what further action could have been taken or what further action you were expecting. Unless of course youre talking about helping Marge Paul draft ordinances...except that Berwyn PD is unqualified to draft ordinances and it isnt within their function to do so. Minor details, I know, but nonetheless probably important and relevant.
3) You criticize "Berwyn" for not doing anything about this issue as well. When asked "What should Berwyn do?", you claim, amongst other things, not grant Lottz any TIF money. Well, since this story broke, exactly what TIF funds has Mr. Lottz applied for and/or received from the City?
4) You hammer the City for its apparent inactivity since this story broke yet applaud Ald. Paul for placing a proposed amendment on the council agenda. Which is fine and dandy, we all commend Ald. Paul for her proactive stance, but wouldn't that also mean that Ald. Paul should be criticized for not having the foresight to address this issue BEFORE the incident with the comedienne occurred/this story broke? Or is it only the seven remaining aldermen (and mayor) who should be criticized for not having the foresight to anticipate that a local bar owner would install a two way mirror in the womens restroom in his bar? I mean, this IS an everyday occurrence that can be easily anticipated by any reasonable person, isn't it?
5) You pound "old time" Berwynites, yet when confronted with attestations (from Ted and others) that its the "old time" Berwynites who are most upset with Mr. Lotzz, you conveniently disregard and/or change the subject.
In fact, in your blind fury you've waylayed just about everyone and everything....the overwhelming majority without any reasonable cause.
Take OPS's advice...BREATHE, collect yourself, and focus one the one individual who IS responsible for your ire...Mr. Lottz.
I'm guessing that you would get a lot more support for your position, and responses to your posts, if you would heed that advice. Just a guess.
You said Ronnie Lottz told you he was going to take the mirror down. Did you think to ask him when that might be happening?
You can call and ask yourself....Cigars and Stripes number is listed.
You didn't think to ask. Got it.
Thats not what
I said, thats what
YOU say.
In any event, thats not the issue, nor the question(s).
The question(s) remain:
1) What was subpar about Berwyn PD's response?
2) What additional action were you expecting from the Berwyn PD?
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 11:51:07 PM
It'd be better if he acquired a conscience, took the mirror down now, and apologized for his misogynistic rhetoric. No?
Might be...
Could be...
But that's neither the issue nor the question.
The question(s) are:
1) What was subpar about Berwyn PD's response?
2) What additional action were you expecting from the Berwyn PD?
Quote from: The Jackal on May 26, 2015, 08:20:59 AM
Quote from: markberwyn on May 25, 2015, 11:51:07 PM
It'd be better if he acquired a conscience, took the mirror down now, and apologized for his misogynistic rhetoric. No?
Might be...
Could be...
But that's neither the issue nor the question.
The question(s) are:
1) What was subpar about Berwyn PD's response?
2) What additional action were you expecting from the Berwyn PD?
I'm taking your advice and keeping the focus on Ronnie Lottz's unprofessional, misogynistic conduct. Given your consistently playing the apologist for Lottz on this thread, I can only conclude that your repeatedly bringing up the police department is meant to change the subject.
Let's keep the focus on Lottz, everyone, shall we?
NO.
Let's focus on the PD.
The PD, and to a lesser extent the City, has been the entire focus of my posts.
And I ask you the SAME two questions over and over again.....
1) How was their response subpar?
2) What additional action were you expecting?
This is only the fifth or sixth time I'm asking these two questions.
Feel free to respond.
After all, the questions are ENTIRELY and SQUARELY focused on the Berwyn PD.
Enough is enough,does the bar have under age patrons,deal in dope,constant fights,all that's wrong is the mirror.This whole issue is to promote free advertisement no one seems to understand that.The owner is a promoter and is fully aware how far he can go.
Ah, no Senator, wrong.
But let's focus on Berwyn PD first and then we'll get to Mr Lotzz and his establishment.
We all have choices,don't like the mirror,don't go in the bar! The police have enough crime to deal with,without worrying about a silly mirror!!!!
"Ronnie doesnt use the term c@#$t because he dislikes women, he uses it because he wants to offend a woman." ---Jackal
Mark,
Let's focus on the Berwyn PD first, shall we?
That's what you wanted after all, isn't it?
I mean, it's ironic that you claim I'm attempting to shift the focus from the PD to Ronnie at the same time you continuously highlight Mr. Lottz, isn't it?
I promise you, we will get to Mr. Lottz.
In due time.
First, please answer the two questions posed regarding the Berwyn PD which you've repeatedly bashed on this thread with respect to how they've handled the situation.
But I suspect you never will because by this time the lightbulb has went on upstairs with respect to what type of corner you've painted yourself in.
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 26, 2015, 12:16:30 PM
We all have choices,don't like the mirror,don't go in the bar! The police have enough crime to deal with,without worrying about a silly mirror!!!!
I don't disagree, but there's no reason why there can't be a discussion of an ordinance against Ronnie Lottz's bad behavior. The moral discussion about this has been interesting. Some people here believe that the morality of the mirror is a function of women patrons---as if the mirror were more "OK" because women come in for drinks. Some, like Jackal, see morals as an economic proposition---the more money Ronnie Lottz makes, the more "OK" the mirror is. Some here have complained about the length of this thread, but there's been surprisingly little discussion of Lottz's moral error, and some absurd defenses of it instead.
"I believe its best to let Mr. Lottz's cash register tell him if Berwyn 'accepts' his behavior or not." ---Jackal, moral relativist
Mark,
The two questions.....
I can agree eventually the mirror or the owner will go.Years ago we had a terrible problem with a bar,loud music on the weekends,cars parked all over.The patrons would come out of the bar drunk or high, swearing as they walked to their cars.They would park all over our street,leaving empty bottles,couples would end up on our lawns having sex.As they drove away many of our cars were damaged.Calls and calls to the police tickets written every weekend along with arrests.The bar is gone never did we go public!
Area misogynist Ronnie Lottz has promised that this week we'd hear the full story about the undisclosed two-way mirror he keeps in his bar's ladies room (https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/602203588245389312 (https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/602203588245389312)). In the meantime, he's announced that he'll be hosting an all-female comedy night. (This would be replacing Hoo Ha Comedy, which understandably canceled its arrangement there.)
I suppose that soon enough you'll hear from Lottz and his supporters that this is proof that the mirror is a-OK. (See? There are women in there!) It's not, of course: http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=13630.msg221180#msg221180. (http://www.berwyntalk.com/smf/index.php?topic=13630.msg221180#msg221180.) Ronnie Lottz would host a weeklong feminist symposium if he thought it would get people in the door to buy his beer and hot links. Fact is, he has still failed to apologize for his conduct, and as far as I know his claim that he'd be taking down the mirror remains a hollow one.
Mark,
The two questions.....
But since its blatantly apparent you will not provide a responsive answer(s), we can make it simpler......a non responsive reply (or no reply at all) shall be construed as an admission that Berwyn PD handled this matter in a fully appropriate manner.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 26, 2015, 10:39:53 PM
Mark,
The two questions.....
But since its blatantly apparent you will not provide a responsive answer(s), we can make it simpler......a non responsive reply (or no reply at all) shall be construed as an admission that Berwyn PD handled this matter in a fully appropriate manner.
*pats Jackal on the head*
Great.
Now we're getting somewhere.
Plus, I've always liked getting my head patted.
Since we've established that the police acted appropriately, let's now examine the City of Berwyn, shall we?
Quote from: The Jackal on May 27, 2015, 07:13:39 AM
Great.
Now we're getting somewhere.
Plus, I've always liked getting my head patted.
Since we've established that the police acted appropriately, let's now examine the City of Berwyn, shall we?
You mean in terms of the undisclosed two-way mirror in Cigars & Stripes' ladies' room, right? The one that prompted Ronnie Lottz to call a woman a bitch and a prostitute? Sure, we can talk about that.
Yes.
Precisely.
THAT mirror.
What, if any, blame can be assessed to the City for the existence of that mirror and/or the incident in question?
You will concede that no ordinance and/or licensing/permit violation has occurred, correct?
Additionally, what city funds and/or licenses permits have been applied for and granted to Mr. Lottz and/or Cigars and Stripes since this story broke and/or incident occurred?
Quote from: The Jackal on May 27, 2015, 08:53:19 AM
Yes.
Precisely.
THAT mirror.
Wait, wait, just so I'm clear: Is that the mirror Ronnie Lottz told you he was going to take down? Because if that's the one, boy did you get suckered.
If Ronnie Lottz is willing to lie to Jackal about taking the mirror down, what other lies about the mirror do you think Ronnie Lottz is comfortable saying?
We're not talking about Ronnie....yet.
We're talking about the City.
We'll get to Ronnie, I promise....
Quote from: The Jackal on May 27, 2015, 09:39:25 AM
We're not talking about Ronnie....yet.
We're talking about the City.
We'll get to Ronnie, I promise....
What do you think Ronnie Lottz meant when he referred to the woman who videotaped the mirror as "Tamale Slops"?
The CITY Mark, the CITY.....
Two questions
Two answers
Hopefully
Smart comments over at C&S's Facebook page:
QuoteAs a husband and father I am amazed that Ronnie didn't stand up and act like a man, father and husband. Take down the mirror. Do the right thing and quit fighting a fight that only makes you look pitiful. This is demeaning to women and it makes the City of Berwyn look foolish! Disgusted!!!!!
QuoteI've been astonished by the attention this place is getting and the lack of respect from the owner. Should have apologized and did the right thing from the start....take down the mirror! Have some respect for women. However after seeing some of the tweets (old and new) I see that the owner has zero respect/regards for women and the City of Berwyn!!!!
That's fine and dandy....
Now as to the two answers to my questions.....
If I do not receive responsive answers I will assume that the city has no fault in the incident in question, nor have any city funds or licenses/permits been subsequently awarded to Cigars and Stripes and/or Mr. Lottz.
Fair enough?
Quote from: The Jackal on May 27, 2015, 11:38:48 AM
That's fine and dandy....
Now as to the two answers to my questions.....
If I do not receive responsive answers I will assume that the city has no fault in the incident in question, nor have any city funds or licenses/permits been subsequently awarded to Cigars and Stripes and/or Mr. Lottz.
Fair enough?
*wrings hands anxiously* How much time to I have to respond? When does the buzzer go off?
I don't think I should be expected to respond to this ultimatum unless I'm given an exact time to do what Jackal asks!
I need to go to Walgreens. Do I have enough time to go to Walgreens?
Back---whew! Am I too late? Has Jackal decided that the buzzer has gone off and that now he is free to make assumptions? Oh dear oh dear oh dear I hope not!
Carry on.
This should be fun.
Quote from: The Jackal on May 27, 2015, 01:14:09 PM
Carry on.
This should be fun.
Has the deadline passed? Are you now free to assume things?
Imagine that, believing something you've read online. The difference is seeing is believing and videos don't lie. Soon the facts will be told and then the people will see.
Still waiting Mark...
Jackal's mad. He'll say he isn't. But he is. And for what? For the sake of defending Ronnie Lottz's behavior?
Mark? Oh Mark? Hey Maaaark...Yoo Hoo, this way...
The two questions Mark...
Just two answers...
Thank you!
Not sure why you keep demanding answers to questions I've already answered. You're just going to have to be disappointed in me.
Can't someone come up with a more sensible topic?
Quote from: berwyn senator on May 27, 2015, 09:49:59 PM
Can't someone come up with a more sensible topic?
I think that so long at the mirror stays up it'll be a topic of discussion, but I do agree that Jackal needs to dial it down a notch.
As I've said repeatedly, I don't think the city or the police department can or should be sued for anything. But I appreciate that the city has been proactive in looking into an ordinance. And while Ronnie Lottz hasn't applied for any special dispensation from the council since the undisclosed two-way mirror was discovered (and I never said he had), I think any future requests he makes ought to be rejected. If Berwyn is so very eager to show that it's a grown-up city that's put its boorishness in the past, that would be place to do it.
As for the police, as I've said, I think it squandered an opportunity to send an important message to the public. After a couple of officers gave the place a quick once-over (scheduled? local media had footage of cops on the premises, and BPD was only there for an hour), the police chief said he understood why people would find the mirror troubling, but his department's actions provide little evidence of concern. I do think the police should've made their investigation last a day, shutting the place down, both to prevent Lottz from making the police visit into the media circus that he did, and to show the city it took the comedian's video seriously. There was an excellent opportunity for the BPD to deliver a stronger communication about sexual harassment and abuse; as it stands, I think the police gave women the impression that their concerns aren't a very high priority.
Again, all points I've made before.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 27, 2015, 10:38:55 PM
As I've said repeatedly, I don't think the city or the police department can or should be sued for anything. But I appreciate that the city has been proactive in looking into an ordinance. And while Ronnie Lottz hasn't applied for any special dispensation from the council since the undisclosed two-way mirror was discovered (and I never said he had), I think any future requests he makes ought to be rejected. If Berwyn is so very eager to show that it's a grown-up city that's put its boorishness in the past, that would be place to do it.
Sued?
Who said anything about the city or PD being sued?
The issue isn't if the city or pd is legally liable for their action(s)/inaction and/or the act(s) of Mr. Lottz, for they are certainly NOT.
The issue is whether or not they acted appropriately.
So far, all I have from you is that you're happy a proposed ordinance has been placed on the table by Berwyn, which I can only conclude means you're also satisfied with the City's stance on the issue....especially given that youve come to realize no ordinance or licensing regulation was violated. Nor have any city funds or permits subsequently been granted to Lottz.
But.....that seems at odds with the verbal pasting you have given the City in your previous 15 pages of unfiltered rant. On the one hand you blast the city (for only God knows what), and on the other you applaud them for the proposed ordinance.
I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in thinking that you're A OK with the City as it relates to this issue. I just hope that's because you sincerely realize the City has no fault in this scenario and not because you've simultaneously realized that criticizing the City would also be throwing Marge Paul under the bus. I'm not sayin, I'm just sayin.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 27, 2015, 10:38:55 PM
As for the police, as I've said, I think it squandered an opportunity to send an important message to the public. After a couple of officers gave the place a quick once-over (scheduled? local media had footage of cops on the premises, and BPD was only there for an hour), the police chief said he understood why people would find the mirror troubling, but his department's actions provide little evidence of concern. I do think the police should've made their investigation last a day, shutting the place down, both to prevent Lottz from making the police visit into the media circus that he did, and to show the city it took the comedian's video seriously. There was an excellent opportunity for the BPD to deliver a stronger communication about sexual harassment and abuse; as it stands, I think the police gave women the impression that their concerns aren't a very high
Really?
Did you seriously think about what you wrote before pushing the send button, or did you simply get yourself worked up in an anti Lottz frenzy and said " the hell with it"?
You wanted the PD to shut C/S down for a day?
On what legal basis?
With what legal justification?
And what rock would you look to crawl under when Lottz would file the obvious lawsuit afterwards?
Here's a hint....there is ZERO evidence a crime was committed....and it didn't take a full hour to conclude that.
The Berwyn PD is in the business of investigating and helping prosecute criminal offenses.
They're not in the business of making public service announcements regarding misogyny, ignorance and/or stupidity. Nor should they be.
Sexual harassment? Abuse?
What evidence did the PF have that any of these things occurred at the time they conducted their investigation?
Seriously man, take a step back and breathe!
Do you need a hug? Who hurt you?
I'm not sure what's worse---that C&S cultivates a clientele that would say things like this to a woman, or that the place didn't delete the comment.
This is the culture that Ronnie Lottz is actively creating in Berwyn.
Given the way the BPD responded, I think it would've been better if the police didn't bother going to the place at all.
Quote from: markberwyn on May 28, 2015, 11:18:01 AM
Given the way the BPD responded, I think it would've been better if the police didn't bother going to the place at all.
What else did you expect them to do?
I mean, that visit from the police will only harm Cigars & Stripes' chances of being a repeat finalist for that award the BDC gives to businesses that improve Berwyn's reputation.
Again, I ask you....what did you expect the Berwyn PD to do?
Were you expecting the Berwyn PD to engage in unlawful conduct (shut C&S down) simply so you could extract your pound of flesh?
Fwiw, there may be a pound of flesh to extract...but it's not via the Berwyn PD/City of Berwyn, nor is it FROM the City of Berwyn and/or "old time Berwynites".
Who cares?
Quote from: The Jackal on May 28, 2015, 11:37:59 AM
Again, I ask you....what did you expect the Berwyn PD to do?
Were you expecting the Berwyn PD to engage in unlawful conduct (shut C&S down) simply so you could extract your pound of flesh?
Fwiw, there may be a pound of flesh to extract...but it's not via the Berwyn PD/City of Berwyn, nor is it FROM the City of Berwyn and/or "old time Berwynites".
OK.
You got it.
You finally got it...
It took only 10 full pages of back and forth before you finally came to the realization that your ire should not be directed at the City of Berwyn, Berwyn PD, old time Berwynites, or anyone/anything else outside of RONNIE LOTTZ.
Have at it.....
Yup, when it comes to old-school Berwyn attitudes, I sure got told. Enjoy Ronnie's hot pockets!
I would consider myself an old time Berwynite,but there much older than I. I bet no one knows the previous name of the bar and the name of the previous owner? Where did the bar come from?
Finally some creative content
http://hypervocal.com/wtfark/2015/two-way-mirror-ladies-room/ (http://hypervocal.com/wtfark/2015/two-way-mirror-ladies-room/)
OH NO another Yelp review :(
http://www.yelp.com/biz/cigars-and-stripes-berwyn?sort_by=date_desc (http://www.yelp.com/biz/cigars-and-stripes-berwyn?sort_by=date_desc)
No one seems to be able to answer my questions?
Maybe because your question has absolutely NOTHING to do with the topic?
Just a thought.....
Are you sure? The history of a building is much more important than the stupid mirror?
Here is some history for the clever and board.
http://www.legendsofamerica.com/il-cigars.html (http://www.legendsofamerica.com/il-cigars.html)
Friends and employees of Cigars and Stripes are rallying behind Ronnie Lottz. A couple of days ago, Michael McArthur, who performs there on occasion as "Iron Balls McArthur," posted a video defending Lottz and criticizing the comedian who posted the video. Nothing new, but take a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXghWQMCW_s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXghWQMCW_s)
Here's a post he made on Facebook thanking Ronnie Lottz for his support during tough times.
A little weird that he's not posting under his name, though, don't you think? What's up with "Marax Ebonoire"? Well, it seems he's had a problem with the Facebook profile he has under Michael McArthur. It likely has something to do with the fact that he calls Facebook "Jewbook":
Both the Michael McArthur and Marax Ebonoire pages are down, last I checked. That may have something to do with a special message he posted for Memorial Day:
And here's a post he made about the president's daughters. Cigars & Stripes knows comedy!
I'm just posting this for informational purposes. After all, there's nothing illegal about saying racist stuff! And the consensus here seems to be that morality doesn't matter---so long as the food is good, women show up, and nothing illegal is happening, all is good. Right?
(If you're watching the video, note the 0:26 point. And his necklace.)
Here's a Michael McArthur video with a better view of his flag. The video is called "dyke exposed."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ettd6VLQW4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Ettd6VLQW4)
And you can watch the first minute of this video to learn more about his ideology. ("I am a racist!"):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U48OeCKwQaU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U48OeCKwQaU)
The political, sexual, or religious views of any outside, hired part-time entertainer and or patron posts to their personal social media outlets does not represent the views of Cigars & Stripes or Mr.Ronnie Lottz in anyway shape or form whatsoever.
Thank you for your concern
S. Goldberg & Assoc.
B.Hiatt
720 LCS 135/
Ronnie Lottz should burn his fucking place to the ground before he fires Iron Balls McArthur. Do you have any idea how much joy that white supremacist has brought?
Just for public record the racist vampire know as Mr.McArthur will no longer be available for card readings at Cigars & Stripes BBQ..and has not been for quit some time now.
We are so sorry any inconvenience this may have caused you if you are interested in seeking further avenues for you spiritual guidance please follow the link below.
http://www.trustedtarot.com/home/?utm_expid=63300600-21.uKOU4DRCQS6lizxPcQkezQ.1&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F (http://www.trustedtarot.com/home/?utm_expid=63300600-21.uKOU4DRCQS6lizxPcQkezQ.1&utm_referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F)
Ronnie Lottz master at Pr.
And to think that he never apologized for calling a female critic a prostitute, nor condemned a longtime performer for his neo-Nazi bloviations. Enjoy the wings!
Why do you think Ronnie Lottz hasn't posted about the end of Michael McArthur's relationship with Cigars & Stripes on the C&S Facebook page?
Maybe all the mirror b.s.is winding down.Was the mirror something from the previous owner,or put there by Ronnie?How come it took so long to noticed,and became and issue?
If it was not for the mirror there would nothing else on BTF!!!!!!!!
My question is, since Ronnie appears to be on this thread, why doesn't Mark ask him whatever questions he has and/or direct any of his remaining pent up venom towards Mr. Lottz?
Everything out of Ronnie Lottz's mouth in the past month has been a slur or a sales pitch. And since he misled at least one reporter and patron about taking the mirror down, no answer he'd give would be trustworthy anyhow.
Well then, if you don't trust any of his answers at least you can give him a verbal tongue lashing, no?
Dude hasn't expressed any interest in my opinions so far; I wouldn't expect him to start now.
Probably too busy selling hot wings during the Hawks game.
Check back tomorrow.
Well, I fully expect Mr. Lottz to start answering some of mark's hard hitting questions.
Nonetheless, what I don't understand is if Mark doesn't expect Ronnie to answer questions about his own behavior, then why/how could he expect everyone else on BTF to answer questions about the behavior of another (Lottz)?
All I want to know is why the Cigars & Stripes homepage is still promoting appearances by Iron Balls McArthur.
Jeez, and all this time I thought you were pissed at Berwyn PD, Berwyn City Council, Berwyn Old Timers, and anything and everything Berwyn?
Homepage now wiped of all references to Iron Balls McArthur. Why was the place so quick to act when it was pointed out that a white supremacist was a regular performer there, but digs in its heels when it's pointed out that it has an undisclosed two-way mirror in the women's restroom? What's the difference?
good question
The political, sexual, or religious views of any outside, hired part-time entertainer and or patron posts to their personal social media outlets does not represent the views of Cigars & Stripes or Mr.Ronnie Lottz in anyway shape or form whatsoever.
Thank you for your concern
S. Goldberg & Assoc.
B.Hiatt
720 LCS 135/
5/31/15
And there's your answer...
At least partially
Yes there is. https://youtu.be/VyIvIVKZIV0
Christ. Some handwaving about sympathizing with women, a hollow claim that he'll take down the mirror, then more spleen-venting about the woman who shot the video. At least he didn't call her a bitch or liken her to a prostitute this time.
What would have been so hard about shooting this video with the mirror taken down? How would that have changed the message Ronnie Lottz wants to deliver?
Looks like Ronnie Lottz has suckered at least one Chicago-area media outlet:
http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Bar-Owner-Says-He-Will-Take-Down-Controversial-Two-Way-Mirror-in-Womens-Restroom-305816331.html (http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Bar-Owner-Says-He-Will-Take-Down-Controversial-Two-Way-Mirror-in-Womens-Restroom-305816331.html)
No your getting the idea!!!!!!!!!!!
Dude put out a press release:
http://www.prnewschannel.com/2015/06/01/chicago-bar-owner-associated-with-ladies-room-two-way-mirror-reflects-in-new-youtube-video/ (http://www.prnewschannel.com/2015/06/01/chicago-bar-owner-associated-with-ladies-room-two-way-mirror-reflects-in-new-youtube-video/)
Are there a few dive bars with more problems than a mirror?Maybe picking on them would help the neighborhood clean out the bums that hang out around them.
Quote from: berwyn senator on June 02, 2015, 01:23:51 PM
Are there a few dive bars with more problems than a mirror?Maybe picking on them would help the neighborhood clean out the bums that hang out around them.
Are any of them finalists for an award from the Berwyn Development Corporation for improving Berwyn's reputation?
The more I think about this video, the more I'm struck at how ignorant and troubling Ronnie Lottz's rhetoric is.
The thrust of Lottz's defense is that the woman who shot the video, if she was so very offended by the mirror, ought to have made an issue of it on the spot instead of shooting video of it. Here's what Lottz says:
Quote"If I was a woman, and I felt very violated, when I got on that stage, I would've screamed at the top of my lungs, 'There's a two-way mirror in there!' All that person had to do was ask me. Just ask me. Or go to the cops."
All I know about Tamale Sepp is what I've seen online. But given what I know about her career in particular, and female performers in general, I can make a few reasonable surmises.
Say you're a female comic. Not big-time, but you've been around for a few years. You've played your share of weird venues, and you've heard that the venue you're performing at, Cigars & Stripes, is weird too. (Here's what one female comic you're performing with wrote about it: http://brightestyoungthings.com/articles/nightmare-gig-meredith-kachel.htm (http://brightestyoungthings.com/articles/nightmare-gig-meredith-kachel.htm)) But that's fine---you're a little weird too, and the owner gets a good crowd. Maybe she even sees the owner hanging out with customers---"How ya doin', Ronnie!"---but even if she doesn't, she knows that decent crowds don't show up by accident. The owner works hard to keep his regulars happy.
You hear about this mirror, or you notice the mirror. Either way, it's unsettling. You shoot a video of it when nobody is watching.
You have an opportunity here. You're upset. You want people to know that there's a mirror in the women's restroom that can be used for exploitative purposes. You want the owner to know that, whatever the rationale behind that mirror is, leaving it there is about 200 kinds of not-OK.
All you have to do is get on stage and say it.
But.
Obviously this owner has a whole lot of goodwill in this room. If you speak up right then and there, how is that crowd---a crowd that likes the venue and that came to laugh, not hear a lecture---going to react? If they get upset with you, do you know how to get out safely? Are you putting the other women comics you came with in any kind of danger? Even if you're pretty badass, you're in an unfamiliar place with an unfamiliar crowd with an owner you know little about except that he's plainly OK with an undisclosed two-way mirror in his ladies' room.
OK. Never mind. Be a pro. Do your set. Hang out. Play nice. Maybe take a break and go call the cops.
And say...what? There's a mirror in a restroom that may or may not be illegal? What's the law about two-way mirrors? You don't have recall on that in the immediate moment---who does? And who knows what the cops are like in Berwyn? Maybe sympathetic, maybe not. And anyway, then you've got the same problem in a different way: You'd have to wait for the cops to arrive, and then the owner and patrons start circling around, wondering what this woman is complaining about...
Seriously. Imagine you're the female comic in this situation. What would be the upside of making a noise about the mirror from the stage, or calling the police?
I know: This all risks portraying female performers as weak creatures. But I think even a male performer in a similar circumstance would have issues with being confrontational in the way Ronnie Lottz recommends, and the comic has expressed some sensitivity to women getting exploited in clubs.
In any event, Lottz's suggestion is foolish and presumptuous. I hope he gets out of the business of telling women how they ought to behave.
His little PR campaign is back firing on him, People are tired of it and want him to step up and be a man instead of trying to play the victim!!!!
Here are some of the comments left:
SickOfTheDrama • 2 hours ago
This is hilarious.
SOURCE: Cigars and Stripes B.B.Q. LoungeThe only thing accurate in this article is that "the comedian has not apologized or removed the video." The source and slant were a dead giveaway. Most importantly, has the mirror been taken down yet? No? Cool. Figured as much.
the
comedian has not apologized or removed the video. - See more at:
http://www.prnewschannel.com/2... (http://www.prnewschannel.com/2...)
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C Zisterer • 3 hours ago
Totally Lame! This man has consistently played the part of "victim"! When you look at the video that Tamale made she never once mentioned the name of the establishment or Ronnie Lottz. The man has a 2-way mirror in his bar/rib joint/fun house, what ever the hell it is!!!! It has been there for 15 years and it took a comedian to finally expose this travesty.
Yes, people are upset, with good reason. Since this video has come out, we have seen Ronnie on talk shows etc. raving like a lunatic about his " Mummy" being stolen, Big Foot buried in the back, Halloween decorations, his fabulous BBQ, etc., I'll burn this place down first! All kinds of stuff. Why didn't he act like a man, apologize, and take it down from the start?
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Question • 27 minutes ago
Dude, why are you still talking about this? Just step up, replace the two-way mirror and tell the world that you're a hero for fixing it. Viral videos aside, all you have to do is fix the fucking thing and the whole thing blows over. You can start telling people that you heard their requests and gave the people what they wanted and happily sell hot wings all the live long day.
But shooting rebuttal videos in your bathroom? Releasing press releases to "set the record straight"? Telling your side? What are you a teenage girl? Nobody gives a fuck. Just fix the damned thing already.
Jesus Christ, man.
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Peanut Butter • 2 hours ago
And what exactly are your terms Ronnie cause they seem to keep changing? First you swore you weren't going to take the mirror down and that you would rather burn your place to the ground. We're all still waiting for you to follow thru on that.
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More from the Tribune, which at least had the good sense to contact the people involved:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-berwyn-two-way-mirror-met-20150602-story.html (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-berwyn-two-way-mirror-met-20150602-story.html)
Lottz says he'll make taking the mirror down into some kind of doofy spectacle:
Quote
The door and mirror, temporarily removed for the video, are back in place and will be permanently unhinged in the coming days, Lottz said. The removal, he said, will be recorded and posted online.
"It will be quite the spectacle," Lottz promised.
Is there nobody in Berwyn who can have a private conversation with this man and talk some sense into him?
Yeesh, this guy. From the C&S Facebook page:
QuoteI have a after thought... the sheep have been misinformed she should take down the video or apologize to the 22 THOUSAND people that sent hate mail to me and my family..all for what 3.4 million views on youtube. She should split the youtube checks with me..after all It's my mirror in the first place
Ronnie Lottz iz never the victim, the public is they have been fooled.
@Markberwyn. It's really kind of pitiful if you think about it. This man really has some kind of problem. First he rants and raves how he will burn the place down first. Then in interviews he incoherently rants about his stolen Mummy, Big Foot buried, Fun House, how he enjoys making people uncomfortable, how he used the mirror for a prank, and on and on.
Now, he starts out about how "he gets it", then blathers on about how it is all her fault. He is the victim in all of this.
Now he will take it down, video tape and post. It's going to be a spectacle! I'm sure it will be!
Kind of sad in a sick way. Oh well, the saga continues. Let's hope this doesn't go worldwide too. Berwyn doesn't need anymore bad press!
http://wgnradio.com/2015/06/02/its-not-just-smoke-and-two-way-mirrors-at-controversial-berwyn-bar/ (http://wgnradio.com/2015/06/02/its-not-just-smoke-and-two-way-mirrors-at-controversial-berwyn-bar/)
Quote from: Ronnie Lottz on June 03, 2015, 10:03:14 AM
http://wgnradio.com/2015/06/02/its-not-just-smoke-and-two-way-mirrors-at-controversial-berwyn-bar/ (http://wgnradio.com/2015/06/02/its-not-just-smoke-and-two-way-mirrors-at-controversial-berwyn-bar/)
I recall Ronnie Lottz telling people a month or so back that if Lenny Bruce were alive today he'd be performing at Cigars & Stripes. On the evidence of this interview, it'd be late-period, unfunny, reading-court-filings-from-the-stage Lenny Bruce.
Mr. Lottz, may I attempt to help you out a bit?
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTROVERSIAL MIRROR REMOVED FROM AWARD-WINNING BAR/CLUB
Owner cites eagerness to "move on" from "distraction"
June 3, 2015/BERWYN, Ill. After a month of social-media notoriety and unwarranted criticism, the owner of Cigars and Stripes has removed a two-way mirror from its ladies' room.
The mirror has been installed in the Berwyn bar and club since the early 2000s without incident, says owner Ronnie Lottz. But a YouTube video posted by a performer in late April drew mass attention to the establishment, and many commenters leveled false accusations of anonymous surveillance and exploitation.
In response, Lottz permanently removed the mirror last night without fanfare, saying, "It's important that we move on, for my sake, for my family's sake, and for the sake of Cigars and Stripes."
Lottz stresses that the Berwyn Police Department inspected Cigars and Stripes shortly after the mirror attracted media notice and found no evidence of wrongdoing. "I think it is reprehensible that people heard a story and assumed the worst about me. This has become an unhealthy distraction."
"But I completely understand---I repeat, I completely understand---that the very existence of the mirror can make women feel uncomfortable. I don't want one woman walking into Cigars and Stripes feeling concerned that they will be disrespected in any way."
Lottz initially told journalists that he would refuse to remove the mirror under any circumstance. Explaining his change in attitude, Lottz says, "This is about more than just me. This is about my family, which has had to endure weeks of threats and hateful comments. This is about Berwyn, a community I love. And this is about my patrons, who come here to have some great barbeque, have the best drinks in town, and watch the best entertainers in the Chicago area."
"Now that the mirror has been removed, I invite anybody who has had their doubts about Cigars and Stripes to give us a chance," Lottz says. "I promise you won't be disappointed."
-30-
Cigars and Stripes BBQ OFFICIAL PRESS RELEASE located in the link below.
http://www.prnewschannel.com/2015/06/01/chicago-bar-owner-associated-with-ladies-room-two-way-mirror-reflects-in-new-youtube-video/ (http://www.prnewschannel.com/2015/06/01/chicago-bar-owner-associated-with-ladies-room-two-way-mirror-reflects-in-new-youtube-video/)
In the future please refrain from posting press releases that are not directly from Cigars & Stripes marketing department. Thank you for your input. It sheds a bit of light on this unfortunate situation.
The political, sexual, or religious views of any outside, hired part-time entertainer and or patron posts to their personal social media outlets does not represent the views of Cigars & Stripes or Mr.Ronnie Lottz in anyway shape or form whatsoever.
Thank you for your concern
S. Goldberg & Assoc.
B.Hiatt
720 LCS 135/
3054
6/3/15
And it is resolved.
Now the dude from DC can stop ranting about a Berwyn business.
Nothing is resolved; the mirror is still up, and Ronnie Lottz has been slinging promises that he'll be taking the mirror down for weeks now. His sanctimonious fundraising drive on behalf of cyberbullying is almost certainly eyewash as well. Which particular charity is he raising money for? Has he named it yet? Can I send my check directly to "B.Hiatt" of "S. Goldberg & Assoc."?
I can see, though, why an old-school Berwynite and Ronnie Lottz apologist would want the conversation to stop.
Actually Mr. MarkBerwyn, it has been very entertaining to watch, so let it roll. I wish I had as much time on my hands as you seem to have dedicated to your anti-Lotz campaign. Although I would probably spend it differently, you know, work, home, family...... Now, back to that mirror!
Per guidance of legal counsel,
I Ronn Lottz president of Cigars and Stripes BBQ on June 4th of 2015,
I am publicly requesting for the removal and or name change of the post
"Cigars and Stripes Toilet Peep Show".
It reasonably at this point has superseded the grey areas of internet defamation.
Oh brother.
Technically, the name of the post is "Cigars and Stripes toilet peep show?", so the post he is asking to be removed doesn't exist!!
I think Ronnie Lottz deserves some praise for his recent actions. Not for his refusal to take down the mirror---that's still reprehensible. But he should be praised for firing Iron Balls McArthur, who's pretty displeased in this video. Though he doesn't name Lottz or Cigars & Stripes, it's pretty clear who he's talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deLj8M9Nx-w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deLj8M9Nx-w)
(Please note that there are some vile anti-Semitic jokes halfway through.)
Iron Balls is also expressing his displeasure on Facebook (which he calls "Jewbook").
(I didn't intend for this thread to become a proof of Godwin's Law, but there it is.)
When will this ever end????????????
Ronnie Lottz tells a reporter that he's raised $300 (or 300 of something) in the fight against cyberbullying:
https://twitter.com/RonnieLottz/status/606183857025646594
Have you donated? Do you know what charity your donation benefits?
The privacy ordinance proposed by Marge Paul has been reviewed by "legal" and will be voted on at this Tuesday's city council meeting on June 9.
Quote from: Ted on June 06, 2015, 06:38:42 AM
The privacy ordinance proposed by Marge Paul has been reviewed by "legal" and will be voted on at this Tuesday's city council meeting on June 9.
That's gonna put a crimp in the anti-cyberbullying campaign.
Screw it. As we wait for Ronnie Lottz to identify whatever anti-cyberbullying organization it is he plans to give money to, raised in some way that's yet to be determined, I've decided to open up my own wallet. I encourage you to do the same.
For every day that Ronnie Lottz keeps the two-way mirror up in his ladies' room, I will give $1 to charity.
I know, I know. A buck isn't a lot. But I'm willing to go into three figures for this.
I'm confident that I'll have to.
I've also decided to make my donation retroactive to April 27, the day that Ronnie Lottz told Jezebel that he would burn his fucking place to the ground before he takes down the mirror. So Lottz has inspired $40 in giving already.
I've decided to split my tribute to Ronnie Lottz between two charities.
The first is the Feminist Majority Foundation (feminist.org), which is "dedicated to women's equality, reproductive health, and non-violence." By not just installing the mirror but by responding to criticism of the mirror with insults, slurs, redirection, and lectures about how women ought to behave, Ronnie Lottz has spotlighted the ways that women are exploited every day by misogyny. But if it weren't for Lottz vociferously defending that mirror and refusing to take it down, Berwyn would be that much more ignorant about how entrenched misogyny is in our society. I'm giving to FMF to help it spread that word in more positive ways.
The second charity I'm supporting is the Anti-Defamation League (adl.org), which has famously strived to address racism in general and anti-Semitic hate speech in particular. This gift is in tribute to Ronnie Lottz's decision to fire Iron Balls McArthur, a longtime performer at Cigars and Stripes, after discovering that he is a virulent racist. With this gift, it is my hope that we remember that a white supremacist can perform at your establishment for years without you knowing a single thing about it, but that quick action can resolve the issue.
I hope this will, in some small way, continue the conversation that Ronnie Lottz has started about misogyny and racism, in Berwyn and beyond.