Interesting item on this week's city council agenda - The bar "Stars and Stripes" is asking the city of Berwyn permission to have midget wrestling at its establishment.
1. The appropriate term is "little people," not "midgets," so the owner is---per usual---being offensive before this even gets going.
2. What, exactly, does the city need to approve?
3. Fuck this guy anyway.
Look at the garbage that people post in the comments when somebody tries to make a reasonable complaint about this. Look at the kind of garbage culture Ronnie Lottz helps create in Berwyn.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/551628248276853/permalink/1197724193667252/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/551628248276853/permalink/1197724193667252/)
Quote from: markberwyn on July 23, 2017, 10:11:22 AM
Look at the garbage that people post in the comments when somebody tries to make a reasonable complaint about this. Look at the kind of garbage culture Ronnie Lottz helps create in Berwyn.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/551628248276853/permalink/1197724193667252/ (https://www.facebook.com/groups/551628248276853/permalink/1197724193667252/)
When I clicked on the link, it said the post had been removed. There was a similar discussion going on in Berwyn Cool Kids but the admin of BCK shut down that discussion also. I posted some hypotheticals (e.g. what if Cigars and Stripes wanted to have dog fighting) and some people angrily responded to me.
After that, the admin shut down the post (I did not even have a chance to respond).
Yeah, I saw the thread got killed. You didn't miss much: The comments were the usual "complaining about this is political correctness run amok!" junk.
Why can't these people who complain about "political correctness" express or defend some genuinely interesting and provocative ideas? They never say stuff like "marriage is institutionalized ownership of a person," or "some drug experimentation is a good thing," or "single payer for all." No. It's always just "Waaaaaaa, I wanna tell rape jokes!" and "We need more Confederate monuments!" and "I want to watch entertainment that exploits people who are different from me!" If the people making those comments are from Berwyn, they're low-class Berwyn.
Quote from: markberwyn on July 24, 2017, 07:28:35 AM
Yeah, I saw the thread got killed. You didn't miss much: The comments were the usual "complaining about this is political correctness run amok!" junk.
Why can't these people who complain about "political correctness" express or defend some genuinely interesting and provocative ideas? They never say stuff like "marriage is institutionalized ownership of a person," or "some drug experimentation is a good thing," or "single payer for all." No. It's always just "Waaaaaaa, I wanna tell rape jokes!" and "We need more Confederate monuments!" and "I want to watch entertainment that exploits people who are different from me!" If the people making those comments are from Berwyn, they're low-class Berwyn.
Cigars and Stripes seems to have a loyal clientele who will rabidly defend him no matter what. I have no doubt that if Cigars and Stripes asked permission to have cock fighting, his defenders would say it is just an animal.
Ronnie Trump.
I see here that Ronnie Lottz has sicced his supporters on one person who registered a complaint about the wrestling event:
https://www.facebook.com/CigarsAndStripesBBQ/posts/10154706954971892 (https://www.facebook.com/CigarsAndStripesBBQ/posts/10154706954971892)
Garbage behavior. (The chastisement about how women are supposed to behave is just the cherry on top.) I find it inexplicable that the Berwyn Development Corporation, which exists to promote the best of Berwyn, sees fit to promote this establishment.
Quote from: markberwyn on July 25, 2017, 09:08:22 PM
I see here that Ronnie Lottz has sicced his supporters on one person who registered a complaint about the wrestling event:
https://www.facebook.com/CigarsAndStripesBBQ/posts/10154706954971892 (https://www.facebook.com/CigarsAndStripesBBQ/posts/10154706954971892)
Garbage behavior. (The chastisement about how women are supposed to behave is just the cherry on top.) I find it inexplicable that the Berwyn Development Corporation, which exists to promote the best of Berwyn, sees fit to promote this establishment.
Yes, they are going after Catey Sullivan on BCK. Several people have called her a "troll" and some have recommended she be banned from BCK. One person called her "an attention seeking whore".
Catey is (or was) a journalist. She worked for the Windy City Times at one point in her career.
She is also a thorn in the side of Lovero and his supporters. For each city council meeting, she looks to see who the city is awarding a contract and then posts the contributions that company made to Lovero's campaign or to the DCOB.
I think some of the calls of her removal from BCK and calling her a troll are coming from DCOB supporters who do not like her posts and research on contract being awarded by the city. They would like nothing better than getting her removed from BCK.
FYI, she tried 2 different posts on BCK on midget wrestling and both times the BCK admins turned off commenting. BCK has some new admins In the last month - (the old admin did not want to be admin any more) that have tightened the discussions. They have turned off several posts if they view the posts as getting out of hand and personal.
It also got me to wondering - what is the definition of a troll? Catey uses her real name and posts legitimate posts on politics and following up on contracts and campaign contributions.
Why do some people think that is "troll" behavior? To me, a troll is someone who hides their identity and is there to make personal trouble on a site. Catey hasn't done that.
FYI, the city council voted to approve the permit for midget wrestling.
We're in divisive times. For people who don't want a serious discussion of an issue, "troll" is just a way of dismissing ideas that make you uncomfortable. Just look at the way Ronnie's minions responded---lines about "safe spaces" and "SJW" and whatnot. These people do not care about the issues of identity, respect, and slurs being raised; they just heard that if you call somebody an SJW that shuts 'em up and you win. And they don't want to talk to Catey---they find the very idea of somebody like Catey troublesome, because it's not what they're used to. And they don't want to have a discussion about calling people "midgets" vs. "little people"---if that were the case, they wouldn't be dumping on a person *who runs a national organization dedicated to defending the rights and dignity of little people.* Civil discourse is hard, so this is how they respond.
If an organization wants to go around the country promoting "midget wrestling," that's their right. But venues also have the right to say that spectacles that exploit difference are poor fits for their establishments and their communities. Ronnie Lottz disagrees, so he gets to play a continuing and increasing role in what people think of when they think of Berwyn.
Here is what Catey Sullivan posted on Berwyn Cool Kids:
Since Friday, I've been called whore, troll, shit-stirrer, liar, someone who doesn't have a life and someone who is trying to destroy families with children and the very quality of life in Berwyn . And finally, my language "isn't lady like." I did not realize that people would be so quick to deflect from the issue at hand by focusing on their interpretation of my own character. Also my language is "not ladylike." At any rate - This event was initially listed as hosted by the "Why Berwyn," It's something I don't want my tax dollars funding. So I said something. And I would do it all again in a heartbeat. (As for the "non lady like language " - That refers to a post on my personal FB page - where I get to post whatever I want and feel no compunction to follow some stranger's attempts at language-policing.) Be well all. I've lived here 17 years. I care about Berwyn. And will continue to do so. Although on this particular topic? I'm finished commenting until it comes up again next year. PS Gary Arnold's comments to the board last night are at city hall. I'd encourage everyone to read them. They are powerful. And to clear something up: this event was initially publicized as being hosted by Why Berwyn, an arm of the BDC. I have a screen shot if anyone is interested. I'm not posting it here as the BDC took it down and told me it had been posted erroneously.
It think it would be great if somebody from the BDC could explain how "Extreme Midget Wresting" "will improve the overall climate for local businesses and residents," because that's one of the BDC's goals.
Explain to me why does this issue concern you? Little people have been wrestling for decades so what's the problem?
Quote from: berwyn senator on July 27, 2017, 11:39:16 AM
Explain to me why does this issue concern you? Little people have been wrestling for decades so what's the problem?
Not sure what time has to do with it. Lots of disreputable/offensive things have happened for decades, and their longevity has made them no less disreputable/offensive.
Consider the fact that worse offenses are occurring in Berwyn bars, considering wrestling an offense compared to others? Which bars have the most complaints?
Quote from: berwyn senator on July 28, 2017, 09:12:38 AM
Consider the fact that worse offenses are occurring in Berwyn bars, considering wrestling an offense compared to others? Which bars have the most complaints?
If you wish to register complaints about these "worse offenses" at Berwyn bars, or keep track of them, you can post a thread or threads dedicated to that! This thread is about Extreme Midget Wrestling's appearance at Cigars and Stripes, and the abusive behavior directed toward critics of the event.
One thing worth noting: Many of Ronnie Lottz's minions were trying to sell a line that EMW was OK because it's a business owned and run by little people. It's not. From an article earlier this year in the Missoula Independent:
Extreme Midget Wrestling was founded roughly eight years ago, according to Lil Nasty Boy. It's the brainchild of Skyler Ward, owner of Dallas-based Center Stage Entertainment. Ward and Center Stage started out some 20 years ago managing a touring revue of male strippers. The decision to start Extreme Midget Wrestling came after he booked a show for a similar wrestling troupe. Vice President Chris Penoyer, who also goes by the name "Maddollarbill," said Ward, who was unavailable for comment, felt he could do the same idea better. Neither Ward nor Penoyer is a little person.
https://missoulanews.bigskypress.com/missoula/midget-wrestling-is-still-a-thing-apparently/Content?oid=4159030
The article adds that none of the performers are stakeholders in the business.
Defenders are welcome to make other arguments for why EMW isn't exploitative, of course. But the argument that it isn't exploitative because it's run by little people doesn't wash.
Little people were wrestling back in the 50's! Do you have a job or is Berwyn talk your occupation?
Good talk, senator.
Are all aware wrestling is all fake, just good acting!!!!!
Not the point.
Why would they be illegal? Then what is your point?
Nobody's questioning EMW's legality. The point is a) that EMW is exploitative in the same ways that minstrel shows and freak shows are, as the main advocacy group for little people says, and b) the way Ronnie Lottz used his patrons to mock, insult, and troll a critic of EMW demonstrates his (continuing) poor judgment, and that as such he deserves no privileged treatment from the Berwyn City Council and Berwyn Development Corporation.
I've lost count of the number of times that Cigars & Stripes patrons have called a woman a "c---" because she expresses her disagreement with Lottz. Berwyn is a lesser place because he's running this kind of business in it. He can have all the fancy microbrews on tap that he wants and griddle his pork tips or whatever it is he does that gives people little foodie-boners, but ultimately he's serving up garbage.
Have you ever been in other bars in Berwyn? The language is not much different, places I would never frequent. I wonder why these places are allowed? Taxes! Hooters in La Grange exploitation of women!!
As I said, if there are activities at particular Berwyn bars that trouble you, you should set up a thread to discuss them. I'm not interested in indulging your whataboutist posturing here.
Very obvious you have never been out in any of the other bars if you were Cigars and Stripes would be a minute issue. Please do not expect others to do the dirty work, common sense and street smarts are needed.
Good talk, senator.
This must be a personal issue with Cigars and Stripes?
Here is a story about this. One line in the story stated by a little person at the city council meeting was this:
"Once you've crossed the line, It's not about yourself it's impacting the entire community choice to market yourself as a midget, freak show or carnival side show. And if you affect the community, you have to answer to the community."
http://chronicleillinois.com/news/cook-county-news/wrestling-event-berwyn-draws-ire-little-people-group/ (http://chronicleillinois.com/news/cook-county-news/wrestling-event-berwyn-draws-ire-little-people-group/)
Also, someone posted on Facebook that CNN had done a story on this.
One more comment - My posts on Facebook were deleted by Facebook (not by the admins) because I used the N word. I made the statement:
"Would people be as accepting if Cigars and Stripes had a 'Dunk the Nigger' contest? Should the Berwyn city council approve a permit for a 'Dunk the Nigger' contest?"
Facebook would not let me even log in until I accepted their deletion of my comments. I had no choice if I wanted to be able to log in.
It surprised me that no one at Facebook even bothered to look at the context of my comments - I was not calling anyone the N word or calling a group of people the N word. I was being provocative and using it in the context of the word "midget".
Apparently, someone was offended and reported me to Facebook and Facebook decided that I should not be able to log into Facebook until I accepted the deletion of my comments by Facebook.
Quote from: Ted on August 02, 2017, 07:07:52 AM
Here is a story about this. One line in the story stated by a little person at the city council meeting was this:
"Once you've crossed the line, It's not about yourself it's impacting the entire community choice to market yourself as a midget, freak show or carnival side show. And if you affect the community, you have to answer to the community."
http://chronicleillinois.com/news/cook-county-news/wrestling-event-berwyn-draws-ire-little-people-group/ (http://chronicleillinois.com/news/cook-county-news/wrestling-event-berwyn-draws-ire-little-people-group/)
Also, someone posted on Facebook that CNN had done a story on this.
Lottz is again being a cheap bully in saying this about the LPA president: "He's looking for attention, for government money for his programs." Anybody who criticizes Lottz, in his mind, must be a Bad Actor and have insincere motives. He tries to protect his business at the expense of other people's integrity, which is garbage behavior.
He is a bad person for Berwyn and its civic institutions to support. Patronizing his business contributes to making Berwyn a lesser place.
Quote from: Ted on August 02, 2017, 07:23:00 AM
One more comment - My posts on Facebook were deleted by Facebook (not by the admins) because I used the N word. I made the statement:
"Would people be as accepting if Cigars and Stripes had a 'Dunk the Nigger' contest? Should the Berwyn city council approve a permit for a 'Dunk the Nigger' contest?"
Facebook would not let me even log in until I accepted their deletion of my comments. I had no choice if I wanted to be able to log in.
It surprised me that no one at Facebook even bothered to look at the context of my comments - I was not calling anyone the N word or calling a group of people the N word. I was being provocative and using it in the context of the word "midget".
Apparently, someone was offended and reported me to Facebook and Facebook decided that I should not be able to log into Facebook until I accepted the deletion of my comments by Facebook.
I doubt the process was that thorough. If somebody reports a page for containing the n-word, it's likely to be automatically deleted, which is just playing to the averages. If you spend any amount of time in the catch basin of social media, it's clear that the overwhelming majority of people using the word aren't having a sophisticated conversation about race. The doofy freeze-peach crowd will complain that their rights are being trampled upon, but they're more than welcome to say the n-word to their heart's content; they just don't get to do it on Facebook.
How many remember Riverview?did'nt they have dunk tanks with both white and blacks?
Quote from: berwyn senator on August 02, 2017, 04:17:19 PM
How many remember Riverview?did'nt they have dunk tanks with both white and blacks?
Yes, they did. That's where I got the idea for the post.