Berwyn Talk Forum

Here is the demand side of the plan ( sheer genius ):

"The legislation would reduce taxes withheld from paychecks. This involves a refundable tax credit worth up to $500 for single filers and $1,000 for joint filers over one year".

http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090202/pl_mcclatchy/3159110

I.E.  Less than $10 a week for a someone single.  But if your married, you will get an additional amount of less than $20 per week.  So go crazy, live large, and stimulate the economy ( yeah right ).


Meanwhile, the former Commy Regime regains its Bawlz in the face of rookie:

Taliban violence spreads in Afghanistan: US report
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090203/wl_afp/afghanistanusmilitaryunrest

North Korea preparing for ballistic missile launch
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090203/wl_nm/us_korea_north_4

Russian newspaper mourns another murdered reporter  http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090131/ap_on_re_eu/eu_russia_murdering_a_newspaper;_ylt=AjqFOgqNouaFk8H4uJDyLsJI2ocA


Good luck. 

Gen. P

From the article:

QuoteTo counter this, the Senate measure would put more money into people's paychecks in small amounts that would be more likely to be spent than saved. Academic research shows that small increases in paychecks are viewed as "spendable" income, while larger lump sums are viewed as wealth to be saved.

So basing policy upon academic research is worse than following a tax cutting ideology blindly?  Come on Paul.

  I guess another way to stimulate the economy is surround yourself with a cabinet of people who don't pay taxes. First you put a guy in charge of the IRS who didn't pay for four years. Then says hes sorry, yea sorry he got caught. And now the great Tom Daschle
owes over 130 grand. I don't hear any dems speaking out against these practices. Maybe we should all just stop paying ours too. Like I said many times the Dems and the Republicans are the two biggest organized crime groups in the country.

Another article on how much this stimulis package is going to cost us.  The question to ask ourselves, could we have better spent some or most of that money better ourselves.  After all, it is our money (or more like a loan that our children will have to pay).

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2009/news/0901/gallery.money_summit/index.html

How did we let this happen?

Quote from: Berwyn Patsy on February 03, 2009, 08:13:14 PM
How did we let this happen?

The "Free Market".  Lack of financial regulation.  Financing debt with exports to China.  Shipping billions of dollars overseas to OPEC.  Making loans to people without the means to repay them.

Quote from: OakParkSpartan on February 02, 2009, 11:51:08 PM
From the article:

QuoteTo counter this, the Senate measure would put more money into people's paychecks in small amounts that would be more likely to be spent than saved. Academic research shows that small increases in paychecks are viewed as "spendable" income, while larger lump sums are viewed as wealth to be saved.

So basing policy upon academic research is worse than following a tax cutting ideology blindly?  Come on Paul.

Even if I were to concede to the theory of Keynesian (Demand Side Economics....which I do not), how much more would the Senate put into our pockets per week, per month, per year???????????  Moreover, how much of this Trillion Dollar Spending Package (in percentage terms) can actually be labeled as "stimulus" under ANY economic theory??? 

The vast majority of these TRILLION DOLLARS goes to pay off political support and grow government bureaucracy. Am I wrong??


Tax cutting ideology blindly??  That is called Supply-side economics.  It is also supported by academic research.

Please let me know where I am wrong or off track.

Milton

Maybe economists and politicians have it all wrong.  They are trying to pump money into a system that they believe is like the 1929-34 depression.  That depression was caused by liquidity.  People had no faith in banks and pulled money out.

Today's problem is not a liquidity issue.  It's a risk issue compounded by a huge debt problem. 

On the risk-side, people developed fancy risk models to increase returns that proved itself wrong - all the risk came true.  People with money have lost money on even the areas believed to safe a few year back.  They have no appetite for risk.  Proof of this theory?  The 3 month T-bills which is at or near zero.  That says that people would rather loan the government at a loss (0 return minus inflation) than put the money anywhere else.  No money in the credit system is like running an engine with no oil, the engine will die.

The debt problem is average consumer goes got into debt and have zero savings.  Remember, the US economy is about 70% consumer-based.  But the consumer has piled on debt, lost money in home equity, and if they had money in the stock market (listenng to the Suzie Ormans of the world who told them to "buy and hold"), that money is practically lost.  The average American owes $11k in revolving debt (if you subtract those without CCs) so where are they going to find money to consume?  If they can't consume, our economy will shrink.

As the economy shrinks, people will loose jobs (experts predict 8%... they are smoking something and not sharing.  It could go as high as 10-15%) putting us into a vicious circle that perpetuates the cycle.

So all this "pumping money into the economy" is a misdiagnoses.  What will be the side-effects of the wrong medicine?  Sort of like a man with VD going to a doctor and getting diagnosed for prostate cancer.  After all is said and done, he still has VD and now has no p-p.

So how do we fix this issue?

Let me guess...cut taxes?

If I knew the answer, I would be writing books and getting paid for lectures  ;D

I know that as an individual, if I had that problem.. I would cut my spending, pay debts and save a little to invest on the areas that give the biggest return.  Can we apply the same logic to an entire country?  Not sure.

I do think we have lost sight as to what made our country the most powerful in the recorded/modern history.  One of the factors was we opened our doors to the best/brightest of the world.  Those individuals helped fuel innovation.  Another factor was we had leaders who made bold decisions with the best intention for the country (Ike's highway system, Kennedy's "man on the moon").  Name me one such project in the last 2 decades?

Why, those are "big government" projects, aren't they? Don't tell Fuentes...

Quote from: n01_important on February 04, 2009, 08:04:27 PM
If I knew the answer, I would be writing books and getting paid for lectures  ;D

I know that as an individual, if I had that problem.. I would cut my spending, pay debts and save a little to invest on the areas that give the biggest return.  Can we apply the same logic to an entire country?  Not sure.

I do think we have lost sight as to what made our country the most powerful in the recorded/modern history.  One of the factors was we opened our doors to the best/brightest of the world.  Those individuals helped fuel innovation.  Another factor was we had leaders who made bold decisions with the best intention for the country (Ike's highway system, Kennedy's "man on the moon").  Name me one such project in the last 2 decades?

After spending last summer lnto early fall looking at colleges for my daughter I still believe most of the best and the brightest will be attending university in the United States.  The kids who are going into the top 50 universities in the United States have great minds.  Thirty five years I thought I was smart but I have nothing on these kids - they are brilliant.

Quote from: rbain on February 04, 2009, 09:03:24 PM
Why, those are "big government" projects, aren't they? Don't tell Fuentes...

Infrastructure and defense related projects should be the realm of government (if you believe the US and Russia were sending rockets into outer space was just as a glorified kite flying episode, and NOT who will have the upper hand on military superiority...you are naive).

By comparison, here are just few portions of Obama's Trillion Dollar Stimulus:

$25 million to improve all-terrain vehicle trails
$34 million to renovate a federal building in Washington
$600 million to buy new cars for government workers
$650 Million Digital TV Coupons
$50 Million National Endowment for the Arts
$200 Million Repairs to National Mall (including $21m for sod)
$246 million tax break for Hollywood movie investors
$2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.
$448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters
$248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters
$400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's
$150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities
$75 million for "smoking cessation activities
$200 million for public computer centers at community colleges

Lot's of $$ to special interests....where is the job creation???

It was announced that the National Mall, STD and smoking cessation were all out of the bill.  Not sure about the others.

But I agree with you that much of what you list is tangential, though I would argue that $600 million worth of autos would have some impact on the auto industry.  Assume $25k/car, that is 24,000 autos.

$246 million tax break to movie investors?  650 million digital TV coupons?
What the hell is that?  Our country's financial structure  is falling rapidly and this is
what they come up with?  It's beginning to be a joke!

Quote from: Paul Fuentes on February 05, 2009, 12:20:52 AM

Quote from: rbain on February 04, 2009, 09:03:24 PM
Why, those are "big government" projects, aren't they? Don't tell Fuentes...

Infrastructure and defense related projects should be the realm of government (if you believe the US and Russia were sending rockets into outer space was just as a glorified kite flying episode, and NOT who will have the upper hand on military superiority...you are naive).

By comparison, here are just few portions of Obama's Trillion Dollar Stimulus:

$25 million to improve all-terrain vehicle trails
$34 million to renovate a federal building in Washington
$600 million to buy new cars for government workers
$650 Million Digital TV Coupons
$50 Million National Endowment for the Arts
$200 Million Repairs to National Mall (including $21m for sod)
$246 million tax break for Hollywood movie investors
$2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.
$448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters
$248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters
$400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's
$150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities
$75 million for "smoking cessation activities
$200 million for public computer centers at community colleges

Lot's of $$ to special interests....where is the job creation???

The item you list total $5.3 Billion. OR about .6% of the total bill, OR about three weeks in Iraq!



Please, we can't take much more of your conservative "fiscal responsibility".


Incidently, millions of people are employed in part through grants from the NEA, myself included.

-Rob

Quote from: rbain on February 05, 2009, 08:23:08 AM

Quote from: Paul Fuentes on February 05, 2009, 12:20:52 AM

Quote from: rbain on February 04, 2009, 09:03:24 PM
Why, those are "big government" projects, aren't they? Don't tell Fuentes...

Infrastructure and defense related projects should be the realm of government (if you believe the US and Russia were sending rockets into outer space was just as a glorified kite flying episode, and NOT who will have the upper hand on military superiority...you are naive).

By comparison, here are just few portions of Obama's Trillion Dollar Stimulus:

$25 million to improve all-terrain vehicle trails
$34 million to renovate a federal building in Washington
$600 million to buy new cars for government workers
$650 Million Digital TV Coupons
$50 Million National Endowment for the Arts
$200 Million Repairs to National Mall (including $21m for sod)
$246 million tax break for Hollywood movie investors
$2 billion earmark to re-start FutureGen, a near-zero emissions coal power plant in Illinois that the Department of Energy defunded last year because it said the project was inefficient.
$448 million for constructing the Department of Homeland Security headquarters
$248 million for furniture at the new Homeland Security headquarters
$400 million for the Centers for Disease Control to screen and prevent STD's
$150 million for Smithsonian museum facilities
$75 million for "smoking cessation activities
$200 million for public computer centers at community colleges

Lot's of $$ to special interests....where is the job creation???

The item you list total $5.3 Billion. OR about .6% of the total bill, OR about three weeks in Iraq!



Please, we can't take much more of your conservative "fiscal responsibility".


Incidently, millions of people are employed in part through grants from the NEA, myself included.

-Rob

CBO: Obama stimulus harmful over long haul
Stephen Dinan
Wednesday, February 4, 2009

PNuff Said

Quote from: Paul Fuentes on February 05, 2009, 12:20:52 AM
Lot's of $$ to special interests....where is the job creation???

Agreed, it would be one thing if the money being spent was an investment in our future.  But spending money on sod seems hardly like an investment that future generations will benefit.

We should be debating investments in roads/bridges as long as they STOP subsidizing the trucking industry.  The trucks destroy the roads and we pay.  Or, high speed rail.  Updating our power grid.  Incentives for researching alternative fuels and bring to market.  BUT tax break for movie investors?!  Why, so they produce more crap with the aims to brainwash the masses into submission of the current oligarchic power structure!?

Quote from: mustang54 on February 03, 2009, 09:24:31 AM
  I guess another way to stimulate the economy is surround yourself with a cabinet of people who don't pay taxes. First you put a guy in charge of the IRS who didn't pay for four years. Then says hes sorry, yea sorry he got caught. And now the great Tom Daschle
owes over 130 grand. I don't hear any dems speaking out against these practices. Maybe we should all just stop paying ours too. Like I said many times the Dems and the Republicans are the two biggest organized crime groups in the country.

#1) i think the reason obama doesn't think tax cuts will help is 45% of americans don't pay any federal income taxes,
so, by and large, most of his constituents wouldn't be affected. ha ha, sort of

#2) "make no mistake, tax cheaters cheat us all, and the IRS should enforce our laws to the letter"
       whoops, that's actually quoting then-senator Tom Daschle (1998)

#3) biggest ponzi scheme ever: social security; um, by definition, it's taking today's monies to pay past benefits


mike

Quote from: rbain on February 05, 2009, 08:23:08 AM
The item you list total $5.3 Billion. OR about .6% of the total bill, OR about three weeks in Iraq!
Please, we can't take much more of your conservative "fiscal responsibility".
Incidently, millions of people are employed in part through grants from the NEA, myself included.

-Rob

Great point.  If Obama and the dems can make the proposal even larger they can add even more pork as long those projects remain less than 1% of the total, right?.  I love the logic.

And, incidently, the spending in Iraq also results in employment for millions of people.

Quote from: jake on February 05, 2009, 11:56:25 AM

And, incidently, the spending in Iraq also results in employment for millions of people.

It also helps the Haliburtons of the world make cu cu bucks.

Those benefits far outweigh the negatives:

• the war is morally wrong
• shows our priorities are screwed up since what we spend in the war a month which we can feed all the world's hungry for 3 years saving 1000s of lives
• helps the recruitment of terrorists since we kill innocent people
• proves to rouge nations that IF you have nuclear weapons, US won't attack but will shower you with gifts (North Korea vs. Iraq)
• we'll have to spend another $500M for the health care of wounded soldiers providing additional profits for our companies (our true citizens, we are just pond scum who are expected to play nice.

Quote from: n01_important on February 05, 2009, 06:45:02 PM

Quote from: jake on February 05, 2009, 11:56:25 AM

And, incidently, the spending in Iraq also results in employment for millions of people.

It also helps the Haliburtons of the world make cu cu bucks.

Those benefits far outweigh the negatives:

• the war is morally wrong
• shows our priorities are screwed up since what we spend in the war a month which we can feed all the world's hungry for 3 years saving 1000s of lives
• helps the recruitment of terrorists since we kill innocent people
• proves to rouge nations that IF you have nuclear weapons, US won't attack but will shower you with gifts (North Korea vs. Iraq)
• we'll have to spend another $500M for the health care of wounded soldiers providing additional profits for our companies (our true citizens, we are just pond scum who are expected to play nice.

Does that apply to Afghanistan too?

Quote from: n01_important on February 05, 2009, 06:45:02 PM

Those benefits far outweigh the negatives:

• the war is morally wrong
• shows our priorities are screwed up since what we spend in the war a month which we can feed all the world's hungry for 3 years saving 1000s of lives
• helps the recruitment of terrorists since we kill innocent people
• proves to rouge nations that IF you have nuclear weapons, US won't attack but will shower you with gifts (North Korea vs. Iraq)
• we'll have to spend another $500M for the health care of wounded soldiers providing additional profits for our companies (our true citizens, we are just pond scum who are expected to play nice.

I.  Please tell us how the war is morally wrong.   Seems just last week the peeps had their first democratic election in decades.  R U telling me SH was not a Totalitarian Dictator that did NOT commit genocide at will?  R U further asserting that he complied with the Bawless UN petitions to have weapons inspections? 

II.  It is not our charge to feed all the hungry in the world over and above protecting our sovereign soil.  If that is your position send all your disposable income to World Vision.  It is our charge to protect those between our borders.  I have no problem with charity, but that notion begins at home.

III.  We are not recruiting terrorists.  We do not go after innocent people.  Terrorists do.  That is their MO.

ENOUGH

If you have such sympathy for our enemies, please join them.  Then at least I know what uniform you are wearing. 

Quote from: Paul Fuentes on February 05, 2009, 11:53:05 PM

I. War was started under false pretenses.  Yes, SH was a dictator but when he committed his worst atrocities, he was our best friend.  We even gave/sold some of arms he used to terrorize his own people.  We didn't seem to have a problem with him when he was gassing Kurds.  He only became an enemy when he got the nerve to act on his own. 

Dictators that kill their people have never been a problem with the US, only those dictators that dare to act on their own accord.  SH made the mistake of attempting to change the oil currency to the Euro.  Funny, the first thing the US did when it took over, was change it back.  It only recently allowed Iraq's to vote.  Shows where our priorities our.

II.  Yes, maybe we don't have a charter to feed the world's hungry.  We can't even seem to do it in our own country.  But it seems we do have a charter to kill others or support those that rape and pillage their people... as long as they allow our corporations to pillage their natural resources.

III.  The best thing we can do to stop terrorist is to stop terrorizing others.  Let's throw an example, Panama.  We sent in troops to arrest yet another former US friend, Manuel Noriega   Our military killed 250 (if you believe them) to 4,000 (if you believe the rest of the world).  What was the response from our government?  "Just collateral damage". 

Another, shall we?  Our country committed mass genocide with the Indians.  Killing many, using germ warfare on others.  The rest were shuffled like cattle once we found something of value on the lands we promised was theres.  If I remember correctly, we broke EVERY SINGLE treaty with them.  Other examples?  'Nam's Bao Dai, China's Chiang Kai-shek, Congo's Laurent Kabila, Uganda's Idi Amin, Chile's Pinochet, Dominican Republic's Trujillo, blah blah blah.

Regarding your quote of "If you have such sympathy for our enemies, please join them.."  You must be reading the Bush's "Patriotism for Dummies" book. 

You can criticize the policies of our government and still be a patriot.  Isn't that what you are doing ranting about "Obama is bad... wha wa wa"?  Based on your logic, since your not supporting the current administration, you must be with the enemy.

Quote from: rbain on February 05, 2009, 08:23:08 AM
The item you list total $5.3 Billion. OR about .6% of the total bill, OR about three weeks in Iraq!

Please, we can't take much more of your conservative "fiscal responsibility".


Incidently, millions of people are employed in part through grants from the NEA, myself included.

-Rob

(http://i307.photobucket.com/albums/nn312/Paul_H_Rosenberg/Zindi-tbl-2.jpg)