Cigars and Stripes?

[Bonster]

What's he waiting for? It'd be embarrassing if he tried to make this into some kind of "event."

Disagree.  He should make it some kind of event.

Why?

Fun for the patrons, $$$ and pub for the bar.

Well, his food makes your tum-tum feel good; I suppose you feel that's the important thing.

Nope.

[markberwyn]

What's he waiting for? It'd be embarrassing if he tried to make this into some kind of "event."

Disagree.  He should make it some kind of event.

Why?

Fun for the patrons, $$$ and pub for the bar.

Well, his food makes your tum-tum feel good; I suppose you feel that's the important thing.

Nope.

OK.

[markberwyn]

How much money did Ronnie Lottz's effort to raise funds in the fight against cyberbullying pull in?

[Bonster]

Will the patrons host a rally demanding that the mirror stay up? They've expended all this effort defending it, after all.

Effort?  Typing on a computer? Silly.

[markberwyn]

Will the patrons host a rally demanding that the mirror stay up? They've expended all this effort defending it, after all.

Effort?  Typing on a computer? Silly.

They all sounded so eager to show that woman her place!

[markberwyn]

So in the past day or so a new line of rationalization has emerged to defend Ronnie Lottz's actions: Hey, did you know that WOMEN are still going to this place despite everything that's happened? Lottz has been keeping track of the gender ratios among his patrons the last couple of nights. Even Bonster, who's taken a line of willfull ignorance about the issue (I don't know nuffin' about nuffin' but I know his hot wings are good!) made a point of saying he observed 60 percent women at the place the last time he visited.

There are at least two things wrong with making this point as a defense of the mirror:

1.   It doesn't respond to bad behavior, just creates benchmarks for rationalizing it. The presumed argument underpinning Lottz's and Bonster's observations is something like, "If this was really an issue, shouldn't there be NO women going to this place? The fact that women are showing up only proves that people are making something out of nothing!" This removes moral judgment from the individual and puts it up for a vote, which doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Let's say tonight's attendance at C&S is 80 percent women---does that mean that the mirror is 80 percent OK? If it's 20 percent this weekend, is the mirror only 20 percent OK? Does your sense of moral clarity depend on how others behave? If somebody is murdered at C&S and people show up after it reopens, to what degree does that make murdering somebody OK?

2.   It makes this women's problem to fix. Ronnie Lottz is the person who installed an undisclosed two-way mirror in his women's restroom. Ronnie Lottz is the person who likened the female comedian who discovered it to a prostitute. Ronnie Lottz is the person who called the female journalist who called him about it "honey." But by keeping score the way he does, he's making a statement that it's female patrons, not him, who are obligated to address his actions. They have to make decision not to go to his establishment. They have to organize a boycott, or something. And then, if they have acted in ways that meet with Lottz's satisfaction, he might consider perhaps thinking about whether the mirror is a good or bad thing. He is not capable of doing this thinking himself---he must be compelled to do this thinking by women, who must act collectively and with absolute singularity (zero female attendance!) before he can trouble himself with such a thing. These gender sabermetrics send the message that men don't have to think about this.

If you want to defend the mirror, fine. Just please stop using the women who show up to the place as a way to do it.

[The Jackal]

So what exactly is it Mark that you're trying to accomplish here?

What are you looking for?

A collective BTF condemnation of Ronnie Lottz?

A public lynching of Berwyn City Council?

A general house cleaning of Berwyn P.D.?

Or are you, in the words of OPS, simply looking to vent?

Be honest with yourself.

11 plus pages of posts, the overwhelming majority which are yours. On a topic where nothing can really be done. You've completely exposed yourself, and in the process given the issue probably 10 pages or so more publicity than it deserved.

[markberwyn]

I'm looking to learn something, both when it comes to my own thinking (I tend to sort things out by writing about them) and when it comes to others'. And I've learned plenty. I don't believe I can actually change things, but since when did that become the point of this site? It's Berwyn Talk Forum, not Berwyn Change Shit Forum.

You say that "nothing can really be done," but that's a demonstrably false statement. After all, there's an alderman who's proposing changes to the city's code, and even Ronnie Lottz has adjusted his thinking on the matter. His stated rationale for that adjustment is less than impressive to me, but it is something being "done" all the same.

Thing is, there has been constant movement on this story since the video of the two-way mirror was posted online. There have been the comedian's comments, Ronnie Lottz's comments, the BPD's actions, the scope and tenor of the media coverage, the shifting rationalizations, changing opinions about what can and can't be done, and the action of the city council.

You say that I've posted too much about this, well past the point when there was anything to say on the matter. When, exactly, should I have stopped?

[Cathy]

@markberwyn:   Isn't it interesting that you are getting vilified for writing about this subject "Cigars and Stripes".  Questioned about why you are writing 11 pages on this topic?  What I find interesting is  "Why aren't more upset about this?"   Why is it okay?  Why do people tend to turn their backs and are afraid to speak up about this disgusting subject?   Where have morals gone?   Is this really acceptable to so many people, or are people that lazy and don't care about the City of Berwyn, where you live? 

Yes, one person can make a difference.   I have learned this as the mother of three with Developmental Disabilities.   As parents who have to face a society that still can't understand and accept, we speak out.   We have protest, we march on the capital, we write letters and it started with a small group of parents who said enough is enough.   Our children couldn't even attend a school until 1975 when the first law passed. 

I find it interesting that people now sit on their butts and don't speak out.   What happened to concerned citizens?   What happened to caring enough to speak out and share your disgust.   Are people that scared about "what someone will think of you?"   

Truly amazing.

[Bonster]

If you want to defend the mirror, fine. Just please stop using the women who show up to the place as a way to do it.

Who did that? 
(I don't feel like reading through this entire thread)

[Bonster]

Even Bonster, who's taken a line of willfull ignorance about the issue (I don't know nuffin' about nuffin' but I know his hot wings are good!) made a point of saying he observed 60 percent women at the place the last time he visited.

I never said anything about something which does not exist at the place; you must be thinking of someone else's post.  Yes... your own; the post where I clarified what they serve.


Willful ignorance about "the issue?"  True, I haven't taken the time to read this entire thread, so I don't know what your issue is.

[markberwyn]

If you want to defend the mirror, fine. Just please stop using the women who show up to the place as a way to do it.

Who did that? 
(I don't feel like reading through this entire thread)

Dudes who count the number of women in the bar like it's some kind of argument for something. But I know you don't want to talk about that. Enjoy your hot wings!

[markberwyn]

Even Bonster, who's taken a line of willfull ignorance about the issue (I don't know nuffin' about nuffin' but I know his hot wings are good!) made a point of saying he observed 60 percent women at the place the last time he visited.

I never said anything about something which does not exist at the place; you must be thinking of someone else's post.  Yes... your own; the post where I clarified what they serve.


Willful ignorance about "the issue?"  True, I haven't taken the time to read this entire thread, so I don't know what your issue is.

You seem very eager to post regularly on a thread you're not reading.

[Bonster]

If you want to defend the mirror, fine. Just please stop using the women who show up to the place as a way to do it.

Who did that? 
(I don't feel like reading through this entire thread)

Dudes who count the number of women in the bar like it's some kind of argument for something. But I know you don't want to talk about that. Enjoy your hot wings!

Dude's got jokes!  (and bad inferences)

[markberwyn]

If you want to defend the mirror, fine. Just please stop using the women who show up to the place as a way to do it.

Who did that? 
(I don't feel like reading through this entire thread)

Dudes who count the number of women in the bar like it's some kind of argument for something. But I know you don't want to talk about that. Enjoy your hot wings!

Dude's got jokes!  (and bad inferences)

OK.

[The Jackal]

We have protest, we march on the capital, we write letters

Then why not do so in this case?

Write your alderman/congressman, call the local news, start an online petition, heck, stage a boycott/protest in front of the place if you like.

I'm fairly certain you would get a lot of support.

Nonetheless, IMO, the reason Mark is basically talking to himself for 11 pages on this thread is simply because he has lost his audience...on an issue where most wholeheartedly agree with his basic premise.

Why?

Because this thread isnt a sincere discussion on the unacceptable behavior of ONE individual but rather a generalized rant against all things Berwyn....the Mayor, City Council, Berwyn P.D., old time Berwynites, newbie Berwynites, misogynists, chicken wing lovers, craft beer enthusiasts, cigar afficionados, etc., etc., etc.....

If Mark takes the time to step down from his soap box and put his ego in check, he would concede as much. If not, my guess is he'll continue talking to himself.

[markberwyn]

We have protest, we march on the capital, we write letters

Then why not do so in this case?

Write your alderman/congressman, call the local news, start an online petition, heck, stage a boycott/protest in front of the place if you like.

I'm fairly certain you would get a lot of support.

Well, hell, why don't you do it? After all, you yourself said Lottz's actions are unacceptable.

[markberwyn]

Interesting interview yesterday with the comedian who shot the video, talking about the city council's recent actions in response to Ronnie Lottz:

https://soundcloud.com/vocalo/council-of-feminsit-thought-tamale-sepp-cigars-and-stripes-and-the-two-way-mirror

One point she makes is that there are a number of registered sex offenders in proximity to the place, and that Cigars and Stripes hosts family events. I wouldn't usually think this is playing fair, but I think it speaks to the point of not giving bad actors opportunities to be bad actors. And since everything Ronnie Lottz has said publicly expresses active disdain for women expressing concern about violation, I think it's fine to put it on the table.

[markberwyn]

We have protest, we march on the capital, we write letters

Then why not do so in this case?

Write your alderman/congressman, call the local news, start an online petition, heck, stage a boycott/protest in front of the place if you like.

I'm fairly certain you would get a lot of support.

Well, hell, why don't you do it? After all, you yourself said Lottz's actions are unacceptable.

Never mind, I forgot you said it'd be better to let the market fix it.

[berwyn senator]

Other than the mirror the bar is a peaceful place?