Ronnie Lottz's last stand?

[berwyn senator]

Stop giving the bar so much attention! May be the mirror will go away,some people like the publicity negative or positive doesn't matter.

[markberwyn]

Someone needs to go in the bar and check,female only.

Well, I'd hate to recommend that anybody actually patronize the business to find out.

Well, what outside of not patronizing Cigars and Stripes would you recommend the people of Berwyn do?

Oh, goodness, I wasn't actually recommending that people not patronize the place at all. I meant it'd be dumb to go there just to see if the mirror is still up. And besides, recommending people not go there would be tantamount to calling for a boycott, and I tend to think boycotts are dumb and counterproductive. Think of the people on this board who suggested that it was women exclusively who had to boycott the place---as if Ronnie Lottz's bad behavior was women's problem to fix.

What I will say---and what everybody here can agree on---is that if you know the story of the mirror, you're morally obligated to visit the place mindfully. You have to ask yourself:

1. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner calls women c*nts and bitches and prostitutes when he's criticized by them?

2. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner responds to women who say they feel unsafe by dismissing their concerns? Indeed, by openly mocking them?

3. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner misleads the media?

4. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner fires a bigot in his employ with great haste when it's called out, but sinks into delay and sophistry when a plainly offensive mirror is called out?

5. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner's pig-headedness forced a waste of resources, however modest, from the police department and city council?

6. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner cynically carried the flag for cyberbullying---a true and legitimate social issue---simply to cover for his own foolish and insulting behavior?

I know there are a lot of people who will respond to those questions by saying, "Here's my money, Ronnie---fill my gullet!" According to various reports, Ronnie can griddle a McNugget a lot better the McDonald's down the block, or whatever it is he does. Fine. But you don't get to pretend that going there doesn't count as a decision in response to Ronnie Lottz's actions.

(I think that the BDC, as an organization with a mission of maintaining and improving Berwyn's reputation, ought to think more closely about these questions. But everybody who knows the mirror story is on the hook for this.)

[Bonster]

I just saw a post on Facebook from the bathroom - the mirror is gone.


I'll see if I can grab the pics or do a screen cap.

[The Jackal]

Someone needs to go in the bar and check,female only.

Well, I'd hate to recommend that anybody actually patronize the business to find out.

Well, what outside of not patronizing Cigars and Stripes would you recommend the people of Berwyn do?

Oh, goodness, I wasn't actually recommending that people not patronize the place at all. I meant it'd be dumb to go there just to see if the mirror is still up. And besides, recommending people not go there would be tantamount to calling for a boycott, and I tend to think boycotts are dumb and counterproductive. Think of the people on this board who suggested that it was women exclusively who had to boycott the place---as if Ronnie Lottz's bad behavior was women's problem to fix.

What I will say---and what everybody here can agree on---is that if you know the story of the mirror, you're morally obligated to visit the place mindfully. You have to ask yourself:

1. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner calls women c*nts and bitches and prostitutes when he's criticized by them?

2. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner responds to women who say they feel unsafe by dismissing their concerns? Indeed, by openly mocking them?

3. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner misleads the media?

4. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner fires a bigot in his employ with great haste when it's called out, but sinks into delay and sophistry when a plainly offensive mirror is called out?

5. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner's pig-headedness forced a waste of resources, however modest, from the police department and city council?

6. Am I OK with patronizing a business whose owner cynically carried the flag for cyberbullying---a true and legitimate social issue---simply to cover for his own foolish and insulting behavior?

I know there are a lot of people who will respond to those questions by saying, "Here's my money, Ronnie---fill my gullet!" According to various reports, Ronnie can griddle a McNugget a lot better the McDonald's down the block, or whatever it is he does. Fine. But you don't get to pretend that going there doesn't count as a decision in response to Ronnie Lottz's actions.

(I think that the BDC, as an organization with a mission of maintaining and improving Berwyn's reputation, ought to think more closely about these questions. But everybody who knows the mirror story is on the hook for this.)

Great.

Fine and dandy.

Both the BDC and Berwynites in general are in fact mindful of all of the above?

Now what?

[markberwyn]

I dunno---don't treat women like crap, find better barbecue in the suburbs, try to avoid places that put Nazis on their performance schedule, ask yourself why Ronnie Lottz is incapable of apologizing for his behavior?

[The Jackal]

who are you referring to?

Who is this advice intended for?

Myself?

Yourself?

Berwynites?

[markberwyn]

who are you referring to?

Who is this advice intended for?

Myself?

Yourself?

Berwynites?

*pats Jackal on the head*

[OakParkSpartan]

Mark,

I appreciate your passion for running down a business here in Berwyn.

Do you live here?  If not, you're affecting MY taxes and frankly, I'm having a hard time seeing how that is beneficial to me.

So drop the calling of names and have a less emotional discussion.

Can you do that?

[berwyn senator]

Very well said,I am amazed that the alderman put as much effort into this business.When you call the alderman with a much more urgent problem they can't be found! I agree this whole issue is a waste of time and tax dollars.Most bar people don't care,and if you don't patronize the bar why bother?

[The Jackal]

Mark hasnt told anyone what exactly he wants the City of Berwyn, BDC, Berwyn Police and/or Berwynites in general to do about this situation.

He went from pointing the finger at the City, PD, BDC and Berwynites in general to now offering "helpful suggestions" about future conduct, never mind that there isnt any evidence of after the fact conduct which isnt squarely in line with his suggestion(s).

Twenty plus pages of posts in order to systematically dismantle his finger pointing, and now that he cant point the finger at anyone (outside of Lotzz), he turns to "helpful suggestions" on future conduct.

That to me doesnt sound like a valid issue but rather a rant...venting. 

[markberwyn]

I concede that I have made this an emotional discussion.

Perhaps this would have been a better, fairer, more thoughtful discussion if I removed my emotions from it. If I were cool and clinical about it, I would've just said that a woman was made to feel uncomfortable at Ronnie Lottz's bar and left it at that. Instead, I got emotional. I suggested that this was a civic issue. I suggested it was moral issue. I argued that Ronnie Lottz was not only putting women in harm's way but that he was laughing it off.

If only I could have been less emotional about this.

Perhaps then I could have been more like OakParkSpartan about this. He hasn't brought his emotions into it. He's had a less emotional discussion. He's looked at people saying Ronnie Lottz's behavior is patently sexist, applied some rational thought to the matter, and concluded that "some people are on a soap box."

That's a cool statement right there. Cold, even.

Oh, but I've let my emotions get away from me! If only I could've been on the other side of this issue, the side where cool and collected attitudes prevail. Then I could've been more like Jackal, who in his calm restraint delivered ultimatums attached to urgent, urgent questions---ones that, were they not answered to his satisfaction, would prompt assumptions on his part about me. Perhaps Jackal is assuming things about me at this very moment. In a cool, collected way, I'm sure.

Me, emotional. Everybody else, sensible and calm.

If I were less emotional, perhaps I would have recognized that, as OakParkSpartan has sensibly and logically pointed out, that this is a tax issue. He has calmly and logically considered that negative attention to Ronnie Lottz's establishment diminishes its reputation, thereby reducing its revenue and the taxes paid into the city. That's fair. In a certain cool and collected way, I can even see that it is not Ronnie Lottz that has been "running down a business here in Berwyn" but me.

But---and I'm trying hard to be unemotional here (Ronnie Lottz's defenders are so good at not having feelings!)---I might suggest that people concerned about taxes and Berwyn's reputation in light of Ronnie Lottz's actions might consider swinging by the offices of the Berwyn Development Corporation to ask some questions. I personally have no direct control over tax dollars, but the BDC does. Indeed, the BDC has given Ronnie Lottz's business five figures to "improve" itself in the name of making the business---and, by extension, Berwyn---a more attractive and appealing place. That will then generate more tax revenue, and thereby make OakParkSpartan happy. To the extent he's capable of experiencing feelings of happiness. He doesn't bring emotions into this.

Being cool and unemotional here, I think a thought exercise might be useful. The BDC has $20,000 to give to improve Berwyn's businesses and reputation. Thinking logically, what would be the smarter move as far as improving Berwyn?

1.   Give it to Ronnie Lottz, a source of global embarrassment for Berwyn who remains unapologetic for insulting the woman who called him out on his sexist behavior.

2.   Toss the bills in a dumpster and set it on fire.

I know my answer. But, like I said, I get emotional about these things.

[berwyn senator]

Who Cares?If you want to put your energy work on Cermak Rd.,Depot district,and Roosevelt Rd. I always go to Oak Park,what a difference! The town has become better over the years lets think why?