Lilly and Theriot to Dodgers

[The Jackal]

For INF Blake De Witt and two minor leaguers.

[Ted]

  The Dodgers also acquired Podsednik and Dotel.  Theriot and Podsednik will make a good top of the batting order for them.

  I was surprised Derek Lee turned down the trade.  Looks like the Ricketts family is cleaning house.

[mustang54]

  The Dodgers also acquired Podsednik and Dotel.  Theriot and Podsednik will make a good top of the batting order for them.

  I was surprised Derek Lee turned down the trade.  Looks like the Ricketts family is cleaning house.

The Ricketts house cleaning will take a few years because they have so much over paid crap that no gm would be dumb enough to want. His first move should be to gas his gm,the only gm in mlb dumber than him is his mentor Andy McFailure. Then get rid of every scout in the organization,and every coach in the dugout. And if the Ricketts ever want to win and protect their investment they should give control of the club to Steve Stone.

[The Jackal]

GM isn't the Cubs problem. It's a previous ownership that forced two massive contracts (Soriano and Zambrano) on Hendry in order to drive up the future sale price of the club, and in effect hamstrung him for the next xxx amount of years.

For all the criticism Hendry has received in town, he has still outyperformed Kenny Williams in 5 of the last eight years. And the Cubs farm system has been and is miles ahead of what the Sox have or have had. Zambrano, Wells, Marmol, Cashner, Marshall, Guzman, Soto, Theriot, Castro, and Colvin are all Cubs products. Not many teams can boast that many on a major league roster, and the system still has a few more that will be up in Chicago shortly.

Look at the trades he's made-specifically for Ramirez and Lee. Two of the most lopsided trades in Chicago history. And for every Milton Bradley he's brought in as a free agent, he has the likes of Dempster, Lilly, Byrd,etc... to more than offset it.

Every GM in baseball makes a bad trade or a bad signing. If they don't, they aren't trying. But look at Hendry's work on the whole and exclude factors that were totally beyond his control (Wood and Prior injuries/Trib forcing bad contracts on him) and what do you have? Pretty impressive resume, even though he hasn't won a WS. Remember, the Yanks also went a decade without a WS with a payroll twice as large as their nearest competitors.

Williams caught lightning in a bottle for one year and everyone brands hima genius, even though Hendry consistently outperformed him in most years. What were people saying in '07 whne the sox had their "clunker" year? Or did Williams suddenly get smarter in three years time?

Let's not forget, Kenny also got caught with his pants down on the Edwin Jackson deal, giving up his #1 prospect for a fifth starter. Or do people forget?

[Bonster]

Zambrano, Wells, Marmol, Cashner, Marshall, Guzman, Soto, Theriot, Castro, and Colvin are all Cubs products. Not many teams can boast that many on a major league roster

That's cause few are as desperate.

[The Jackal]

No, I don't think so....I didn't include the likes of Justin Berg, Ismailin Caridad, James Russell (roster filler/fringe type guys), etc....

Every single guy on my list is a legitimate front line major leaguer, and only two (Theriot and Wells) can be considered average.

Zambrano was an all star front of the rotation pitcher.

Marshall has been one of the best lefty relievers in the NL this year.

Guzman had a monster year last year and was developing into a quality short reliever.

Marmol is flat out the toughest pitcher in baseball to hit and one of the top handful of closers in the game.

Soto is the leading NL Silver Slugger candidate at catcher.

Castro (.300+ avg) is one of the top rookies in the league as is Colvin with 17 hr's already.

And Cashner may be the best of all the rookies when all is said and done.

How do you figure any of these guys are playing because the cubs are desparate?

[Ted]

...  For all the criticism Hendry has received in town, he has still outyperformed Kenny Williams in 5 of the last eight years. ...  

 Kenny Williams has not been general manager for 8 years.  He has been general manager for only 6 years, since 2004.

 Over that 6 year period, the Cubs and the Sox have had similar records.  Both have one division title with a very good record; both have another division title with a mediocre record; both have 2 teams that finished above .500 but did not make the playoffs; both have one team that finished just below .500; and both teams had one really lousy season in that 6 year span.  Then add on to that how the Sox are performing in 2010 versus how the Cubs are performing in 2010.


 Given the above facts, I would say Williams' teams have performed equivalent to, if not better than, the Cubs since Williams became G.M. in 2004, especially when you look at the teams this year and when you look at a World Series championship in 2005.


 In the 4 years before Williams, both teams won the division once; both teams were in the pennant race in 2003, and the Sox did not have any team play below a .500 record between 2000 through 2006, while the Cubs had 4 teams play less than .500 in that span.

 Given those statistics, I think the Sox have performed better than the Cubs under Hendry's rein.
 
 Ted

[Ted]

  Hendry became general manager in July of 2002; Williams became general manager before the 2004 season.  Here are the records of the Cubs and Sox in that span:

2010 Chicago White Sox .567  
2009 Chicago White Sox .488  
2008 Chicago White Sox .546  
2007 Chicago White Sox .444  
2006 Chicago White Sox .556  
2005 Chicago White Sox .611  
2004 Chicago White Sox .512  
2003 Chicago White Sox .531  

2010 Chicago Cubs .444  
2009 Chicago Cubs .516  
2008 Chicago Cubs .602  
2007 Chicago Cubs .525  
2006 Chicago Cubs .407  
2005 Chicago Cubs .488  
2004 Chicago Cubs .549  
2003 Chicago Cubs .543


  In looking at what happened between 2004 through the present (the years Williams was in charge of the Sox), I think the World Series win in 2005 and the 2010 season tip the scales in favor of Williams over Hendry.

  Ted

[The Jackal]

No Ted, Williams has been GM since November of 2000 (replacing Ron Schueler after the Sox had lost to Lou Piniella's Mariners in the 2000 playoffs), hence from the 2001 season and on.

Hendry took over from Mc Phail in July of 2002 (mid season), hence 2003 season was his first full one.

Since then, Hendry has been to the playoffs three times, Williams two (the last one being as a result of an end of year playoff with the worst record of ALL playoof teams that year).

Hendry's teams have outperformed Williams' FIVE out of the EIGHT years they've simultaneously served (with two of those years being when Wood and Prior were injured 2005-06).

Hendry went to the playoffs his FIRST FULL YEAR as GM. It took Williams FIVE YEARS to do likewise.

Furthermore, look at the trades and free agent acquisitions both have made during their tenure, as well as the respective farm sytems.   

[The Jackal]

In fact, a great case can be made that Ron Schueler outperformed Kenny Williams also, by a significant margin.

Remember, Schueler didn't have a CUPCAKE AL Central to feast on back during his tenure, and his farm system produced the likes of Jack McDowell, Alex Fernandez, Wilson Alvarez, Frank Thomas, Robin Ventura, etc.....

Who has Williams' farm system produced?

[Robert Pauly]

You guys are debating about two teams that have won a combined 2 World Series in the past 100 years, had 0 starters on this year's All Star team, and only 1 each on the All Star bench, one of whom was the goat of the game.

I'd prefer to count raindrops - it's more productive.

[mustang54]

You guys are debating about two teams that have won a combined 2 World Series in the past 100 years, had 0 starters on this year's All Star team, and only 1 each on the All Star bench, one of whom was the goat of the game.

I'd prefer to count raindrops - it's more productive.

I agree! You could combine them and still suck.

[Ted]

  Jackal, you're right about Williams starting in 2001.  I was confusing when Guillen started with when Williams started.

  Still, all in all, I give the edge to Williams over Hendry. 2005 and 2010 tip the scales in Williams favor.

  Ted

[Ted]

...  I agree! You could combine them and still suck....

Nope. Only ONE of them sucks (the Cubs).  The other one (the Sox) are in first place and headed to another World Series ring.

   

[mustang54]

...  I agree! You could combine them and still suck....

Nope. Only ONE of them sucks (the Cubs).  The other one (the Sox) are in first place and headed to another World Series ring.

   

Would you like to make a wager?

[The Jackal]

Jackal, you're right about Williams starting in 2001.  I was confusing when Guillen started with when Williams started.

Still, all in all, I give the edge to Williams over Hendry. 2005 and 2010 tip the scales in Williams favor.

Ted

Huh?

2010 is nowhere near being finished...........what have the Sox won in 2010 that I missed?

Even WITH 2010 though, Hendry still has two more head to head season record victories (5-3) over Williams and up to now has one more playoff appearance.

Now I don't have a problem with giving 2005 a little more weight, but at worst case scenario, they're even.

[Peg Proksa]

Every professional team in Chicago has reached the top of the mountain except one, I rest my case.

[The Jackal]

They've ALL reached the top of the mountain.

No case to rest since its a ridiculous, and false, argument.

[Bonster]

What about the Fire?

[Ted]

Even WITH 2010 though, Hendry still has two more head to head season record victories (5-3) over Williams and up to now has one more playoff appearance.

Now I don't have a problem with giving 2005 a little more weight, but at worst case scenario, they're even.

 Williams has had only 2 of his 9 teams finish below .500.  Hendry has had 2 of his 7 teams finish below .500 and when this year finishes it will be 3 of his 8 teams below .500.

 As I said, since 2003, both have had one very good team, two pretty good teams, two average teams, one less than average team and one very bad team.  In addition the Sox did not have bad years in 2000, 2001 or 2002

 As I originally said, I think Hendry and Williams are pretty much even EXCEPT for the fact that Williams won the World Series in 2005 and is on top the division this year.  That is the differentiator.

At this point in time (including what has happened so far in 2010), Williams edges out Hendry because of 2005 and because of what has happened this year.